United States Defense Thread

[swerve]

If you fly a supersonic jet that close to a drone with a top speed of <500 km/h, anything that happens is 100% your fault. Trying to blame it on manouevres by the drone is just silly.

The Russians know that we know they're talking bollocks. They don't care, of course: it's meant for those already committed to believing them, & as a loyalty signal (you pretend to believe it to show you back the Russian government) for those who understand, but whose personal lives or careers would be damaged by showing doubt.

 

[Feanor]

If you fly a supersonic jet that close to a drone with a top speed of <500 km/h, anything that happens is 100% your fault. Trying to blame it on manouevres by the drone is just silly.

The Russians know that we know they're talking bollocks. They don't care, of course: it's meant for those already committed to believing them, & as a loyalty signal (you pretend to believe it to show you back the Russian government) for those who understand, but whose personal lives or careers would be damaged by showing doubt.

I think this is an accurate take on the situation. I suspect the specifics are not particularly significant, though for curiosities' sake I'd like to know them anyway.

EDIT; If I'm reading this right, this is the footage;

Moscow calling

Инцидент с Су-27 ВКС РФ и БПЛА MQ-9 "Reaper" над чёрным морем. Видно, что после распыления керосина с Су-27 перестал вращаться воздушный винт MQ-9, вероятно, в связи с остановкой турбовинтового двигателя. Интересно, прокатит ли такой прикол с F-16?

t.me

EDIT2:

Do you have more information on those incidents in the 80s?

Soviet pilot Vasiliy Tsymbal damaged the propeller of a Norwegian P-3 Orion with his Su-27, and then dumped fuel onto its cabin, all of this in international airspace. He had previously made imitation attack runs on a Japanese patrol vessel that allegedly entered Soviet territorial waters, and dumped fuel on them as well. Sorry, I could only find Russian sources.

В Сети после инцидента с дроном США вспомнили подвиг советского летчика Цымбала

В Сети активно обсуждают вчерашний инцидент над Черным морем, в результате которого был «приводнен» американский дрон MQ-9 Reaper «Жнец». В связи с этим вспоминают заслуги советского военного летчика Василия Цымбала.

www.mk.ru

Как советский лётчик довёл пилотов НАТО до нервного срыва

Один человек умудрился довести до расстройства здоровья нескольких асов США и НАТО. Из-за него Белый дом обращался в Кремль, а начальство регулярно получало порцию проверок и седых волос.

life.ru

 

[Capt. Ironpants]

The dumping of fuel was not new. Russian pilots did that back in the '80s.

The Russian jets were essentially urinating on our drone. I can imagine a the Russian pilots laughing their heads off. This is not a big deal. We sent a Reaper toward sensitive Russian territory and their jets peed on it. Very small potatoes compared to, er, certain things we have done lately. And no different from little brushes between USSR and US on the edges of territorial waters during the old Cold War (and since). It's a nothingburger, really. I find it a bit comical, myself. No one was killed or injured.

 

[Feanor]

The Russian jets were essentially urinating on our drone. I can imagine a the Russian pilots laughing their heads off. This is not a big deal. We sent a Reaper toward sensitive Russian territory and their jets peed on it. Very small potatoes compared to, er, certain things we have done lately. And no different from little brushes between USSR and US on the edges of territorial waters during the old Cold War (and since). It's a nothingburger, really. I find it a bit comical, myself. No one was killed or injured.

I disagree.

Russia has been conducting close intercepts and interfering maneuvers near NATO aircraft for quite some time, slowly escalating in frequency and severity. It's only a matter of time before someone is killed or injured. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was a peer superpower war against whom was flirting with armageddon. Russia - not so much. They're playing with fire, and it could go very poorly for Russia.

On the flip side the de-facto participation of NATO ISR in the war effort on Ukraine's side is a huge problem for Russia. So I don't think this is going to stop.

 

[Capt. Ironpants]

I disagree.

Russia has been conducting close intercepts and interfering maneuvers near NATO aircraft for quite some time, slowly escalating in frequency and severity. It's only a matter of time before someone is killed or injured. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was a peer superpower war against whom was flirting with armageddon. Russia - not so much. They're playing with fire, and it could go very poorly for Russia.

On the flip side the de-facto participation of NATO ISR in the war effort on Ukraine's side is a huge problem for Russia. So I don't think this is going to stop.

I do see your point. I do hope the Russians are careful about observing limits. While no average American would countenance getting into a hot war with Russia over an unmanned drone, if they overstep bounds you are quite right that it could go very badly for Russia.

Future concern of mine: This war could easily push Russia dangerously beyond reluctant alliance with and into the position of a client of China, which is now a near-peer superpower. This would spell a Sino-Russian Alliance vs NATO. This is hardly a happy prospect. Do you think I am off base here? I would be more than happy for someone like you to tell me I am. I am not at all pleased with this concern of mine.

 

[John Fedup]

I do see your point. I do hope the Russians are careful about observing limits. While no average American would countenance getting into a hot war with Russia over an unmanned drone, if they overstep bounds you are quite right that it could go very badly for Russia.

Future concern of mine: This war could easily push Russia dangerously beyond reluctant alliance with and into the position of a client of China, which is now a near-peer superpower. This would spell a Sino-Russian Alliance vs NATO. This is hardly a happy prospect. Do you think I am off base here? I would be more than happy for someone like you to tell me I am. I am not at all pleased with this concern of mine.

I think the the concern is justified. However I think Russian nationalists would be concerned for the long term wrt dependence on China. They are well aware of their likely junior status in any future alliance despite their formidable nuclear arsenal.

 

[Capt. Ironpants]

I think the the concern is justified. However I think Russian nationalists would be concerned for the long term wrt dependence on China. They are well aware of their likely junior status in any future alliance despite their formidable nuclear arsenal.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, Russia will be the junior partner, the sidekick. But they'll just have to suck it up. They have already become dependent on China. It's a done deal now. And Europe now has a Sino-Russian Alliance on its border instead of just little old distant #3 Russia. What a mess. Past mistakes on both sides might have been worked out and smoothed over between Russia and the West, given some time and breathing space. But now ... well, I don't see much hope.

 

[Todjaeger]

I think the the concern is justified. However I think Russian nationalists would be concerned for the long term wrt dependence on China. They are well aware of their likely junior status in any future alliance despite their formidable nuclear arsenal.

Another potential issue is conflict between the PRC/China and Russia. When the Russian Empire was expanding into part of Siberia and the Far East, there were conflicts as a result of claims by Qing or Joseon.

It is distinctly possible that at some point in the next couple of decades, China might seek control over adjacent areas claimed by Russia but largely uninhabited and resource rich.

 

[John Fedup]

Another potential issue is conflict between the PRC/China and Russia. When the Russian Empire was expanding into part of Siberia and the Far East, there were conflicts as a result of claims by Qing or Joseon.

It is distinctly possible that at some point in the next couple of decades, China might seek control over adjacent areas claimed by Russia but largely uninhabited and resource rich.

Agree, and no doubt this is a concern for the thieving oligarchs in the Putin gang.

 

[Feanor]

Soviet pilot Vasiliy Tsymbal damaged the propeller of a Norwegian P-3 Orion with his Su-27, and then dumped fuel onto its cabin, all of this in international airspace. He had previously made imitation attack runs on a Japanese patrol vessel that allegedly entered Soviet territorial waters, and dumped fuel on them as well. Sorry, I could only find Russian sources.

В Сети после инцидента с дроном США вспомнили подвиг советского летчика Цымбала

В Сети активно обсуждают вчерашний инцидент над Черным морем, в результате которого был «приводнен» американский дрон MQ-9 Reaper «Жнец». В связи с этим вспоминают заслуги советского военного летчика Василия Цымбала.

www.mk.ru

Как советский лётчик довёл пилотов НАТО до нервного срыва

Один человек умудрился довести до расстройства здоровья нескольких асов США и НАТО. Из-за него Белый дом обращался в Кремль, а начальство регулярно получало порцию проверок и седых волос.

life.ru

An interesting follow-up. In the USSR Tsymbal faced investigating committees after each of the two incidents, and while he was ultimately not punished, it was a distinct possibility. At the very least neither national leadership nor his chain of command were particularly thrilled with his actions, and he was in fact transferred from the Far East to the Far North after the incident with the Japanese ship. Today however the Russian pilots involved in the incident with the UAV are being nominated for awards... in case anybody was wondering about whether incidents like this are going to continue.

Шойгу представил к госнаградам летчиков Су-27, перехвативших американский БПЛА

Подробнее на сайте

www.kommersant.ru

 

[Vivendi]

The US is planning to increase production of LRASM, JASSM, and Tomahawks significantly. Starting in 2024, the number of LRASM and JASSM produced will increase from roughly 500 per year to more than 1,000 per year.

In addition the production of Tomahawks will be increased by a factor of six, partly due to US needs but also future exports e.g., Australia, Canada, Japan. The Netherlands also recently ordered some, and other countries are also considering to purchase.

US Navy Looks to Drastically Increase Missile Production - Naval News

It was revealed on Monday that the service desired to ramp up procurement of missiles at a NAVAIR briefing during Sea Air Space 2023.

www.navalnews.com

Great news for the USN in particular, but also the USAF will benefit from JASSM and LARSM. And I guess the US Army is still getting some Tomahawks?

 

[Vivendi]

Very interesting -- the US is entering an agreement with Norwegian company Kongsberg for multi-year purchase of the NSM missile. This is somewhat surprising, previously Raytheon was the contractor and Kongsberg was the "subcontractor" (although more than 70% of the work was done in Norway). SAM.gov

For 2024, 103 NSM will be ordered at a cost of 249.9 million USD, 90 for USMC and 13 for USN.

USA kjøper missiler direkte fra Kongsberg i stedet for fra Raytheon

De to samarbeidspartnerne er lite snakkesalige.

www.tu.no

Not sure why Kongsberg not Raytheon got the multiyear contract. Perhaps Raytheon added too much "overhead" to the cost, without adding much value...? Or something else?

The USAF is also entering a multi-year contract for the JSM -- 48 for 2023, and a total of 268 JSM for the next 5 years. Not sure if that contract is with Raytheon or Kongsberg as the main contractor.

Lovende start, mente Kongsberg-sjefen om amerikansk JSM-bestilling – det var ingen overdrivelse

US Air Force har allerede opprettet eget programkontor for Joint Strike Missile (JSM).

www.tu.no

To meet the demand Kongsberg is investing 1 billion NOK to expand production facilities in Norway.

Milliardavtale til amerikansk selskap – mesteparten av arbeidet skjer i Norge

USA bestiller flere Naval Strike Missile (NSM) fra Raytheon.

www.tu.no

I recall somebody (perhaps @koxinga ?) was very skeptical the US would consider purchasing European munitions if there was a war with China -- however the US is willing to purchase missiles from Europe already. If there is a war with China, the US will of course increase domestic production first, but will also look to Europe, if there is a need (and I am sure there would be...).

Anyways, great news for Norwegian defense industry, the NSM/JSM is turning into a major export success, and amazing that they manage to do most of the production in Norway.

(Not the first time Norwegian companies signs a major US defense contract , I recall some years ago Norwegian company Nammo was qualified to produce rocket engines for the AMRAAM when ATK could not deliver!

Raytheon resolves AMRAAM production issues

Raytheon expects to recover the production scheudle in mid-2013 of its AIM-120D AMRAAM air-to-air missile, says chief executive William Swanson. The...

www.flightglobal.com

Nammo is also developing the rocket engine for AMRAAM-ER for NASAMS, increasing range by 50% and altitude by 70%: https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/news/2022/07/13/amraam-evolution)

 

[DDG38]

The (alleged) leaker of classified documents online has been arrested by the FBI :
Pentagon leaks linked to young gun enthusiast who worked at military base
At this stage this looks to be just an attempt by a young service member to impress his online friends and not a deliberate foreign actor breach. The US has over a million top secret security clearances active so I don't envy the person responsible for the review that this will create.

 

[ngatimozart]

The (alleged) leaker of classified documents online has been arrested by the FBI :
Pentagon leaks linked to young gun enthusiast who worked at military base
At this stage this looks to be just an attempt by a young service member to impress his online friends and not a deliberate foreign actor breach. The US has over a million top secret security clearances active so I don't envy the person responsible for the review that this will create.

That boy, if found guilty, will spend a long time on the inside looking out. Moron.

 

[John Fedup]

That boy, if found guilty, will spend a long time on the inside looking out. Moron.

He sure won’t be looking at a computer screen. Basically he has ended his life.

 

[seaspear]

Perhaps the biggest question is why this person had such access to information ,where is the need to know?

 

[John Fedup]

Perhaps the biggest question is why this person had such access to information ,where is the need to know?

Excellent question and hopefully some significant re-evaluation of “need to know” occurs.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Perhaps the biggest question is why this person had such access to information ,where is the need to know?

I think I read it in the Times or Economist, but essentially after the 2001 terror attacks the priority was put on information sharing to try to ensure that there could be no such repeat simply because data was being siloed.

Of course it does seem they went too far, and at the least there should have been a review years ago, especially after previous leaks. I'm sure they'll now have to restrict access.

 

[swerve]

The (alleged) leaker of classified documents online has been arrested by the FBI :
Pentagon leaks linked to young gun enthusiast who worked at military base
At this stage this looks to be just an attempt by a young service member to impress his online friends and not a deliberate foreign actor breach. The US has over a million top secret security clearances active so I don't envy the person responsible for the review that this will create.

Either Top Secret is pretty low level or that's too many. And what happened to Need to Know? I understand that too much siloing can be dangerous, as Musashi-kenshin has referred to, but I have to agree that it looks as if the USA has gone too far the other way.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Perhaps the biggest question is why this person had such access to information ,where is the need to know?

He was a cyber transportation specialist. In english he was a hardware guy. So that is where he needed the TS clearance. And likely put him sitting in any number of briefings to be on hand to handle data sharing problems. It also means as lowest ranking guy in the room he would get tapped to clean up afterward, and possibly tasked to take printed material (for the dinosaurs in the room) to be filed/shred/burned afterward. So pretty likely he didn't have "need to know", but had "approval to handle"