http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/27/AR2007032700610.html seems we are posturing a little.
UK sailors captured at gunpoint
- Thread starter jaffo4011
- Start date
Fifteen dead servicemen would be far worse than the present situation. I have heard numerous military commentators in the media including special forces who say that in those situations not committing suicide was the right thing to do, you dont fight a battle you cant win. Dead marines bodies would be paraded by the iranians as aggressive agents against islam...blah blah blah, The RIB wreckage would be towed safely inside Iranian waters. A media scoop far in excess of this.
There have been numerous examples in miltary history of sensible surrender. The Falklands for instance. The naval party put up a fight but when the odds were clear they gave up without loss..the rest was history.
Sierra Leonne, the West side boys captured some guards, the Paras and SAS rescued them and kileed several dozen, the message was sent out.
The trick is to get them out by negotiation, milk the world media then insure that the next time there is sufficient firepower to overwhelm whatever Iranian forces try it on.
There is in my opinion no suggestion that defending oneself was reprehensible.
Realistically...we could send a handfull of tomahawks into Iran, blow up a few SAM sites, maybe maintain a naval blockade...for a few weeks. But the world wouldnt support us for harming gulf oil exports.
On paper, apply the UK military against the Iranian military and we would win, unfortunatley many thousand of miles, lack of decent sized carriers (until 2015 at the least), airbases in which to operate....You see we are limited. Now I would love to see a tripling of UK defence spending but it wont happen unless WW3 erupts.
As per US soldiers not being messed with, you are right. But they messed with 3000 plus US citizens instead on 9/11 so military posing and ridiculous Rambo-esque notions of no surrender wont stop the next time the terrorists get lucky...which they will. They dont mess with the US military because they can attack embassies, blow up tourists etc instead.
The UK will fight back, probably in the form of pressure via the UN and supporting the US if or when Iran is attacked. That perhaps is our best bargaining tool.
There have been numerous examples in miltary history of sensible surrender. The Falklands for instance. The naval party put up a fight but when the odds were clear they gave up without loss..the rest was history.
Sierra Leonne, the West side boys captured some guards, the Paras and SAS rescued them and kileed several dozen, the message was sent out.
The trick is to get them out by negotiation, milk the world media then insure that the next time there is sufficient firepower to overwhelm whatever Iranian forces try it on.
There is in my opinion no suggestion that defending oneself was reprehensible.
Realistically...we could send a handfull of tomahawks into Iran, blow up a few SAM sites, maybe maintain a naval blockade...for a few weeks. But the world wouldnt support us for harming gulf oil exports.
On paper, apply the UK military against the Iranian military and we would win, unfortunatley many thousand of miles, lack of decent sized carriers (until 2015 at the least), airbases in which to operate....You see we are limited. Now I would love to see a tripling of UK defence spending but it wont happen unless WW3 erupts.
As per US soldiers not being messed with, you are right. But they messed with 3000 plus US citizens instead on 9/11 so military posing and ridiculous Rambo-esque notions of no surrender wont stop the next time the terrorists get lucky...which they will. They dont mess with the US military because they can attack embassies, blow up tourists etc instead.
The UK will fight back, probably in the form of pressure via the UN and supporting the US if or when Iran is attacked. That perhaps is our best bargaining tool.
You dont see the link between the two?
And the difference is?
I know its the Brits call but as far as I'm concerned the kidnapping of these troops is the legal and moral equivalent of Yanks being kidnapped.
Those troops were following orders. If their orders were to fight to the last man the would have fought. None of what happened is a reflection on their character or courage.
Waylander how many stunts do these people have to pull before such expressions become rediculous?
Rich, Im with you. I dont see how this should be treated any different than if it were US troops that have been detained. I think we are sending a message as we speak that we are not.
I dont think anybody can call into question the bravery of the british. They were in no position to fight at that point. They did the right thing in standing down and will live to fight another day so to speak.
Steve
I dont think anybody can call into question the bravery of the british. They were in no position to fight at that point. They did the right thing in standing down and will live to fight another day so to speak.
Steve
Stuart Mackey
New Member
I am asking if you do.
I am not sure what you are saying, you seem to be blaming the UN for something that it cannot be or do, which is behave like a powerfull nation state.
Yes, or anyone else for that matter.
*snort* So certain are you?
true.
Dae JoYoung
New Member
As part of a surge,
US has been stealing lots of Iranian spies "illegally" all over that region recently. I suspect Iranians are looking for some sort of exchange of hostages. However,
I do not see George Bush helping Blair out.
George Bush is looking for an excuse to start another war.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1807903/posts
US has been stealing lots of Iranian spies "illegally" all over that region recently. I suspect Iranians are looking for some sort of exchange of hostages. However,
I do not see George Bush helping Blair out.
George Bush is looking for an excuse to start another war.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1807903/posts
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Schumacher
New Member
Judging from UK & US response so far, which looks like genuine attempt to have this solved diplomatically, it seems any plan to attack Iran is still a long time away. Otherwise, they could have really used this to up the pressure.
Perhaps Iran will see this as weakness & be emboldened.
Perhaps Iran will see this as weakness & be emboldened.
Attention:
Can some of you gents please take the time to indulge in some self editing and depersonalise your comments.
Can some of you gents please take the time to indulge in some self editing and depersonalise your comments.
Super Nimrod
New Member
United Kingdom MOD/RN Statement today confirming the ships and boats positions.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...gShowsRoyalNavyPersonnelWereInIraqiWaters.htm
Official UK Government statement as to the diplomatic situation is due in the next couple of minutes.....................
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...gShowsRoyalNavyPersonnelWereInIraqiWaters.htm
Official UK Government statement as to the diplomatic situation is due in the next couple of minutes.....................
Stealing spies illegally? Could you please clarify this for us because I dont understand.
George Bush is looking for another war? LOL. How do you pin this one on Bush when it was the Iranians who kidnapped these soldiers. Sure seems like they're the ones looking for trouble.
radiosilence
jints
Iranian Foreign Minister said the female sailor will be release within a day or two. Seems like the diplomatic pressure is starting to pay dividend.
Any information on where the hostages are being held?
Here is a nightmare secenario for you;
A combination of internal uprisings and Western military attacks cause the Iranian Government to collapse. Al Jizeera portray it all as a US plot, causing worldwide Roits.
The Government of Pakistan is overthrown by Al-Queada backed Fundamentalists. India takes advantage of this chaos by marching into Kashmir, and also takes Lahore by coupe-de-main as a bargaining chip.
China sends paratroops to Kashmir, raiders across the frontier, and troops into Myanmar, a two-prong assault into Assam takes shape.
Suddenly (and much to their own surprise) China is hailed as the savior of Islam. Malaysia and INdonesia declare an Asian Jihadist alliance, thousands of forieghners are massacred, and Indonesia asks for Chinese transports to ferry thier army to Australia.
WW3 begins, as unlikely and surprising as the last two.
Here is a nightmare secenario for you;
A combination of internal uprisings and Western military attacks cause the Iranian Government to collapse. Al Jizeera portray it all as a US plot, causing worldwide Roits.
The Government of Pakistan is overthrown by Al-Queada backed Fundamentalists. India takes advantage of this chaos by marching into Kashmir, and also takes Lahore by coupe-de-main as a bargaining chip.
China sends paratroops to Kashmir, raiders across the frontier, and troops into Myanmar, a two-prong assault into Assam takes shape.
Suddenly (and much to their own surprise) China is hailed as the savior of Islam. Malaysia and INdonesia declare an Asian Jihadist alliance, thousands of forieghners are massacred, and Indonesia asks for Chinese transports to ferry thier army to Australia.
WW3 begins, as unlikely and surprising as the last two.
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WHOAH NELLY !!!!
Manfred, while I like the way your mind works on this scenario, but I gotta say that I think you're a bit "premature at the ejaculation"!
Hear say & supposition like this can incite such things to happen, but at this time I see this like a game of Chess, with the Iranians playing badly against a superior, slow & thoughtful opponent.
This is merely a game of chance at the moment.
Iran saw a chance to make some headlines & took it. In the long run it will backfire as International opinion won't back their Modus Operandi.
Unless you're implying that this is just the tip of an Islamic Iceberg of a conspiracy plot to take over the planet........
STOP IT !!
nfloorl:I'm doing it now.......
Systems Adict
contedicavour
New Member
Back to topic... the British sailors are indeed a precious bargaining chip in Iranian hands. Most probably they won't be harmed and that will limit any wild scenario of armed escalation.
I'd love to hear what diplomats are really bargaining with to free the captured British sailors.
Oh and next time allied sailors or soldiers are close to the border I sure hope they'll be armed to the teeth and ready to react !!!
cheers
I'd love to hear what diplomats are really bargaining with to free the captured British sailors.
Oh and next time allied sailors or soldiers are close to the border I sure hope they'll be armed to the teeth and ready to react !!!
cheers
Let's hope with Eisenhower & Stennis both in the Gulf that we see an expedited diplomatic release of the hostages. Granted, US carriers don't necessarily add to the Brits' clout, but ...
If Iran is willing to release a hostage, it appears less likely that the Brits saw something the Persians didn't want them to see. Regardless, it appears Iran is trying to provoke something, while trying to maintain a shield of plausible deniability; so they can claim to be an "innocent, peace-loving people."
It's no secret Ahmadinejad has a hard-on for Bush & Blair. I've heard snippets that some (radicals?) believe a nuclear holocaust in the middle east will bring the return of the prophet who restore power to Islam. I wonder if there is is such a belief.
If Iran is willing to release a hostage, it appears less likely that the Brits saw something the Persians didn't want them to see. Regardless, it appears Iran is trying to provoke something, while trying to maintain a shield of plausible deniability; so they can claim to be an "innocent, peace-loving people."
It's no secret Ahmadinejad has a hard-on for Bush & Blair. I've heard snippets that some (radicals?) believe a nuclear holocaust in the middle east will bring the return of the prophet who restore power to Islam. I wonder if there is is such a belief.
Nope, not a conspiracy, just tossing out another scenario. But good chess players seem to be in short supply these days.
This is just a ploy to rally the troops around a Government that is getting less popular avery day. When will the Iranians discover that Hostage taking is not sen as an Honorable act in the West?
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