Time for a New rifle/Small arms system

[highsea]

It appears that the version with snail drum and bipod will be utilized as a squad weapon?

That's correct. BTW, the 6.8mm as I understand is different than the .270 Winchester (which is a necked down .30-06). The 6.8mm is based on a rimless 30-30 (necked down to .270), so it won't have quite the ballistics of the .270 Win, but should be a little more controllable in the SAW version (than the 7.62 NATO). Ballistically it would be closer to the 7.62 NATO (.308 Win.) in energy, but flatter shooting and should carry the energy downrange a little better due to the smaller caliber.

Looking at the pistol version of the M8, even in 5.56 it looks like a handfull!

I think my comment on the telescopic sights was incorrect though, IIRC the telescopic sight I was thinking about is for a new large caliber sniper system that is scheduled to replace or supplement the Barrett .50's and M2's. Part of the M25 program. The M8 sniper version will have the same integrated sight as the others, at least to start out. It will also be fitted with the bipod and a 20" barrel. There is also a snap-on 12 gauge shotgun for the M8 as well as the grenade launcher.

The other thing I mentioned in passing was the M25 system. The original planning was to have a single weapon, 25mm/5.56 in an over-under configuration. It proved to be too heavy and awkward, so it was split into two seperate weapons. The M25 is to have several different types of rounds, but the one I thought was interesting was the 25mm computerized airburst round. You dial in the distance to the target on the receiver, and if the bad guys are hunkered down behind a barricade, you send the round over their heads. When it gets to the programmed distance, it explodes, sending 600 pieces of shrapnel raining down. Great for shooting around corners, too!

-CM

 

[neel24neo]

The M25 is to have several different types of rounds, but the one I thought was interesting was the 25mm computerized airburst round. You dial in the distance to the target on the receiver, and if the bad guys are hunkered down behind a barricade, you send the round over their heads. When it gets to the programmed distance, it explodes, sending 600 pieces of shrapnel raining down. Great for shooting around corners, too!

computerised round???how much would each cost :?: now they would start making homing rounds i guess.nanotechnology is just arriving.
by the way,600 pieces of sharpnel u say,will that be enough.how much damage would it do?

 

[highsea]

XM 25 Air Burst Assault Weapon

Here's a little bit on the XM-25:

XM25 Air-burst Assault Weapon

A 25mm air-burst assault weapon that dramatically increases soldier lethality, survivability, standoff, and versatility

The XM25 provides the soldier with a 300-500 percent increase in hit probability to defeat point, area, and defilade targets out to 500 meters. The weapon features revolutionary high-explosive, air-burst ammunition that is integrated with the weapon’s multi-functional, all-environment, full-solution target acquisition/fire control system.

Target Acquisition/Fire Control System

The XM25 integrates ballistics computation in the full-solution Target Acquisition/Fire Control (TA/FC) system. The TA/FC system automatically communicates to the chambered 25mm round. Using advanced turns-count fuzing technology, the round is fired at the target and bursts precisely overhead.

The XM25 precisely delivers air-bursting munitions in all conditions, including MOUT and complex terrain. It is five times more lethal at the M203 maximum range and continues to provide lethality well beyond the M203’s maximum ability. The system is designed for optimum performance at 300 meters but will perform to 500 meters and beyond.

Lase – Aim – Fire:

The soldier places the aim point on target and activates the laser rangefinder
The fire control system provides an adjusted aim point
The soldier places the adjusted aim point on target and pulls the trigger

It includes five different types of ammunition:

Thermobaric
Flechette
Training
High Explosive Air Bursting
Non-Lethal

Combat Capabilities:

Semi-automatic high-explosive, air-bursting 25mm weapon
Full solution/integrated, compact, target acquisition/fire control system
Single round system accuracy
Ambidextrous, field strippable, and iron-sight backup

http://www.atk.com/ProductSheets/Category/SoldierSystems/2012709.htm

-CM

 

[Awang se]

Believe it or not, I never fire my M-4 in full auto after 4 years in the service though it is capable of doing so. After some rigorous training, i feel more comfortable in taking a well aim single shot. Of course, there's no one yet that can go far enough to force me to spray a bullets to them.

 

[neel24neo]

Believe it or not, I never fire my M-4 in full auto after 4 years in the service though it is capable of doing so. After some rigorous training, i feel more comfortable in taking a well aim single shot. Of course, there's no one yet that can go far enough to force me to spray a bullets to them.

but it depends on situations doesnt it.there may come times when you really need the fire volume of automatic fire.but yes aimed shots are better.i guess every army trains their soldiers to do just that.



i have a doubt here.if the xm-25 was separated from the rifle(m-8)wouldnnt it be better if they went for a larger caliber grenade launcher configuration employed as a squad weapon instead of induvidual weapon?

 

[Jason_kiwi]

By 2010 the NZ C9 MG's, Carl Guistafs and SAS weapons are due for replacement. I would love NZ to get the same standard smalla arms as USA.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

XM25 Air-burst Assault Weapon, ah yes, it was advertised as the gun that could shoot around corners. Lol. A bit disconcerting having a round airburst just past the corner of a building you are hiding behind. Brilliant idea though. I thought the US was moving to the P-90, first seen in Stargate I guess the point is, to take down a target with one shot and make sure he is out of the fight. The old policy of shooting to wound, to burden the enemy with wounded to take care of, doesn't work fighting those that are a danger even when wounded, and want to die to become martyrs. For those not familiar with the P-90, it uses a 5.7x28mm cartridge, and carries 50 rounds, and is very short bullpup design.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

 

[Jason_kiwi]

What would replace the C9 mgs and carl guistafs?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I thought the US was moving to the P-90

AFAIK, the P90 failed every CONUS test it entered. There was some talk of the FBI using it for HRT work, but IIRC it lost out against the MP5 family.

 

[Alektas]

How about the new 6.5Grendel round?
It offers .308NATO ballistics in an ar-15 package. Firing a 6.5mm 120grain bullet with a high BC it retains a lot of energy downrange and because of its small size it woulf be ideal for a designated marksman rifle, SAW or assault rifle. It allows a practical range of more than 800m.

www.65grendel.com

 

[Pendekar]

AFAIK, the P90 failed every CONUS test it entered

remember the Stargate TV series? they change their MP5 from the first season to P90 in the second, now isn't that a backward track.

i'm under the impression that P90 was intended to be some sort of PDW. generaly, i understand the concept, but in detail, what really is the requirement for PDW? can MP5 be considered PDW?

 

[HateBreed]

PDW stands for personal defense weapon. a weapon that is compact for portability and is less likely to be used as an offensive weapon.
mp5 and p90 can be called pdws but they are designed for CQB or close quarter battle for antiterrorist forces. the advantagge p90 has on mp5 is that its 5.7 mm bullets can shoot straight thru 40 sheets of kevlar by sheer kinetic energy.

 

[vintec]

i have read a lot of complaints from us troops regarding the FMJ 5.56, they said unless they shot the enemy's head or spinal cord, it's impossible to drop the enemy in one or two shots. one example, a troop from stryker brigade in Mosul fired three shots into the insurgent's abdomen at point blank, the insurgent was still able to fight with the troop hand-to-hand. i've also watched a video clip where an insurgent still crouching with his RPG after being shot like 4 or 5 rounds, another 5 rounds made him dropped.

since no one mention the new HK416, i'll post some info of it

http://www.hkdefense.us/corporate/media/pdf/416revised4-5-05.pdf
it uses short-stroke piston, that means no carbon fouling in the chamber, it has better cooling effeciency just to name a few pros.

XM-8 will most probably scrapped due to the cost, looks like hk416 is a good candidate if the m4/m16 are to be replaced. most of the current accessories are able to use on hk416 as they have the same RIS and handguard. personally, i'm not a fan of m-8, looks like a damn toy to me but i know, choosing rifle by it's look is stupid. like what Sgt. Maj. Basil Plumley said in the movie "we were soldiers", "too much goddamn plastic in it!" his comment for the "new" m16

btw, since the hk416 is using piston, will that mean worse accuracy compare to the current m4/m16 that uses gas system (lets ASSUME that everything else is the same).

i'm really interested in small arms than tanks, jets etc... i have yet to find a good website that explains how every single piece of rifle internals works, mind sharing some websites? ta

 

[turin]

@HateBreed & Pendekar:

Actually the MP5 is a pretty classic submachine gun. There do exist some versions of the MP5, which can be considered PDWs, for example versions of the MP5/10 firing .224 BOZ rounds or the MP5K. A more comparable regular design by H&K would be the MP7. Also the purpose of these weapons is stated in their very names, its not some gear specifically designed for anti-terrorist operations, although they may be and in fact are widely used in that context. However the primary intention was to give troops, especially such personnel not primarily concerned with infantry duties, a more powerful means of defense and general combat capability. Thats why these weapons are called Personal Defense Weapons in the first place.
Therefore the german army fields the MP7 primarily with personnel such as the crews of tanks and other vehicles. The MP7 is more compact than the P-90 though, the latter is often seen with SOF or bodyguards (in fact, the personal security of german heads of state and other federal VIPs use this weapon on a regular basis). Still, that weapon was developed primarily for the purpose mentioned with the MP-7 as well.

For a comprehensive approach to the topic of PDW on the net, you may want to check out this site:
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/

As for Stargate...well its a sci-fi-show and the weapon looks cool. I guess that was the deciding factor.

 

[Cyclop]

The P-90 is introduced in the Austrian Jagdkommando (SOF) and intelligence service. Especially in urban areas, it seems to be an excellent weapon - small (short), powerful, 50 shoots, cardridges to the front, rails for lights etc. ...
The P-90 has a special ammunition capable of get trough Kevlar armour.
The P-90 is in fact replacing a number of older SMG.

 

[HateBreed]

actually the market is comparatively limited for toys like the p90 and mp2000. hk and its variant are and will remain the choice of mainstream specail ops forces in the foreseeable future. true the p90 is remarkable weapon to kill with, but the profieciency required to handle a bullpup design doesnt come easily. as is the case with AUG.there are a very few instances when i'd greatly prefer p90 over the hk mp5, although i can get the same result carrying either. i am not selling p90 short but its just that Fn seemed to make a market around itself and a very introverted at that. lets see how the CQB demands evolve with the changing global anti-terrorism needs, only then we can actually put these armor chewing toys at test.

 

[turin]

but the profieciency required to handle a bullpup design doesnt come easily. as is the case with AUG

For example?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

The G3 is about 45 years old. It was the std assault weapon for the Germans for a number of years, and is now relegated to the reserves. Its a pretty popular gun and was sold to over 45 countries (IIRC)

Std 7.62 NATO round.

The Stey is a completely diff weapon, lighter, 5.56 and is a Bullpup, so it's an ideal urban assault, tight area weapon. It's also easier to manage if the operater is in a vehicle.

Aussie Gunner has been a AuSteyr (Australian modified Steyr) user, so he should be able to give you an idea of how he thinks it handles

I've used FN-SLR's/(FAL's), different again, std NATO 7.62, long barrel, not the best for urban assault, but urban assault wasn't really a design consideration for it.

GF, I was in the MIddle East , Mid Eighties, I had some up close exposure to the Israeli Galil( 7.62 and then the 5.56 calibre models). The Israelis that I was in contact with gave some insight into the "perfect" combination of the Galil 5.56 and GPMG combination. I realise that the Galil is old hat now, but is Bullpup flavour of the decade or is there hard fact regarding its design virtues? The Israelis also showed me how they did a quick cleaning of their 5.56, a cigarette filter, and a blank cartridge, and bang, a clean barrel!

BTW, I am a die hard FN fan, but of course on the Canadian Prairies you sure could get the best out of it! It certainly does not have any advantage in an urban warfare situation, except for one thing, good old fashioned penetration!

 

[gf0012-aust]

BTW, I am a die hard FN fan, but of course on the Canadian Prairies you sure could get the best out of it! It certainly does not have any advantage in an urban warfare situation, except for one thing, good old fashioned penetration!

I love the old FN/SLR. The americans used to call it the "aussie elephant gun" for it's kick. I guess that happens when you dial it up.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

GF, I liked the solid feel, and most of all the accuracy. I never handled a M14 but I still see a few of them around configured as sniper rifles, and the USA has unloaded M14's to the Estonian Security Forces.

But the one Assault Rifle that has always impressed me is the French Bull Pup, though I cannot recall its name?