The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[KipPotapych]

^ Fair. I don’t see how it would change anything though.

Example one. Many (perhaps most?) here think I post Russian propaganda; some may be thinking (was so suggested or implied previously, more than once) I am on the Russian payroll even (tell me where to collect). If I post some evidence tying me to Canada, would that change anyone’s mind? Probably not. See Tulsi’s garbage I talked about the other day, born and raised ‘Mercian.

Example two. I know someone who used to fly a standard-size Russian flag at the back of their truck for months on after the invasion. The dude would feed you with all kinds of nonsense (that often began with a rational thought). Wish I took a picture. He put the flag up after the town replaced the Canadian flag with the one of Ukraine, by the way. The dude is a Canadian citizen, who went a mile to bring his in-laws from Ukraine to Canada (who now call him an orc and the like, lol).

Example three. If I responded to one of Rob’s posts above -> see example one. Laughing.

There are plenty more, but I believe I made the point.

 

[personaldesas]

^ Fair. I don’t see how it would change anything though.

Example one. Many (perhaps most?) here think I post Russian propaganda; some may be thinking (was so suggested or implied previously, more than once) I am on the Russian payroll even (tell me where to collect). If I post some evidence tying me to Canada, would that change anyone’s mind? Probably not. See Tulsi’s garbage I talked about the other day, born and raised ‘Mercian.

I agree with that. These accusations are often completely nonsensical. I’ve seen Westerners fiercely defend the Russian government, and Russians fiercely oppose it, and vice versa. You can maybe make some broad statistical inference, but it is basically useless when judging an individual.

That said, if someone makes their identity part of the argument, uses it to support their credibility, and then repeatedly offers to prove it. It's interesting not because it would settle the underlying argument, but because it says something about the integrity of that specific claim and the way it was used.

Example two. I know someone who used to fly a standard-size Russian flag at the back of their truck for months on after the invasion. The dude would feed you with all kinds of nonsense (that often began with a rational thought). Wish I took a picture. He put the flag up after the town replaced the Canadian flag with the one of Ukraine, by the way. The dude is a Canadian citizen, who went a mile to bring his in-laws from Ukraine to Canada (who now call him an orc and the like, lol).

It does make you wonder whether people have nothing better to do.

I can understand having strong views, but driving around for months with that kind of public symbolism is a level of commitment I find hard to relate to. I don’t think I’d ever go that far just for the sake of provocation, whatever my position was.

 

[John Fedup]

I agree with that. These accusations are often completely nonsensical. I’ve seen Westerners fiercely defend the Russian government, and Russians fiercely oppose it, and vice versa. You can maybe make some broad statistical inference, but it is basically useless when judging an individual.

That said, if someone makes their identity part of the argument, uses it to support their credibility, and then repeatedly offers to prove it. It's interesting not because it would settle the underlying argument, but because it says something about the integrity of that specific claim and the way it was used.



It does make you wonder whether people have nothing better to do.

I can understand having strong views, but driving around for months with that kind of public symbolism is a level of commitment I find hard to relate to. I don’t think I’d ever go that far just for the sake of provocation, whatever my position was.

If you want to see provocation, there are people driving around with some bumper stickers on their pickups that certainly can provoke.

 

[Redshift]

you was replying to me off the response i gave someone else, basic intelligence, why is it hard for you to understand

I was replying to the sentence that you typed, that was your opinion do try and get a grip I even quoted it back to you.

 

[deyhere]

I agree that nobody should be posting sensitive personal information publicly.

But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity, the implied argument being that someone who is not Russian cannot be aligned with Russian government narratives. He then repeatedly said he would be happy to prove that identity, as so would strengthen the argument.

So I don’t see the issue with taking him up on an offer he made himself, as long as nothing sensitive is posted publicly and he remains fully in control of what, if anything, he wants to show.

Otherwise, it is fair to ask whether the offer was ever serious, and whether that particular line of argument was being made in good faith.

you see what i mean, classic western manipulation and spin. you forgot the part where you guys were so sure that am Russian? someone even posted that his "country Indonesia are friends with my country Russia" and was trying to tell me how dumb i am. you forgot to add that bit. it went from Russian to Russian troll to not a native English speaker. you westerners are so spoilt, this is exactly how you execute foreign policy, it's al most comical.

am ready to prove you are all liars, why not. that's how you bully people on here and if one refuses to be bullied, you start crying "Russian troll". so what are you? Ukrainian troll?

a lot of Brits think it's mad supporting Ukraine fight Russia, why you surprised am one of those people? you just want to squeeze out those voices that try to reason different. you guys most think the whole world is dumb

 

[deyhere]

I don't have to travel to africa to understand the harm that happened during the colonials period, but that is the past which we cannot change, I have travelled through a significant number of countries in soith east Asia and my own country has significant populations of different ethnic groups.

• European: 67.8%
• Māori: 17.8% (the indigenous population, or tangata whenua)
• Asian: 17.3% (notably Chinese and Indian communities)
• Pacific peoples: 8.9% (e.g., Samoan, Tongan, and Cook Islands communities)
• MELAA: 1.9% (Middle Eastern, Latin American, and African) [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Google Search

Have you travelled to AFrica

Yes, i have been to a lot of African countries, i have almost done the entire continent, just a handful of countries i have not visited. i have an ongoing project in Ghana at the moment.

do you have any idea what the west done to Africa? most of these African countries got their independence in the 60's and are still being robbed till today by the west. should someone go and remind them and galvanise them to turn against the west. don't forget the memories are a bit still fresh?
why you bothered with how many countries Russia invaded when your track record is very bad? 100 years ago Russia done sh**t now you have to arm Ukraine to fight Russia regardless of the outcome, regardless of if they have nuclear weapons.

 

[personaldesas]

you see what i mean, classic western manipulation and spin. you forgot the part where you guys were so sure that am Russian? someone even posted that his "country Indonesia are friends with my country Russia" and was trying to tell me how dumb i am.

Classic Western manipulation from Indonesia, apparently.

 

[personaldesas]

you see what i mean, classic western manipulation and spin. you forgot the part where you guys were so sure that am Russian? someone even posted that his "country Indonesia are friends with my country Russia" and was trying to tell me how dumb i am. you forgot to add that bit. it went from Russian to Russian troll to not a native English speaker. you westerners are so spoilt, this is exactly how you execute foreign policy, it's al most comical.

am ready to prove you are all liars, why not. that's how you bully people on here and if one refuses to be bullied, you start crying "Russian troll". so what are you? Ukrainian troll?

a lot of Brits think it's mad supporting Ukraine fight Russia, why you surprised am one of those people? you just want to squeeze out those voices that try to reason different. you guys most think the whole world is dumb

Can you quote me where I did all that?

 

[deyhere]

Can you quote me where I did all that?

No, but you writing as if you have not been reading the thread, spinning it hard,

I agree that nobody should be posting sensitive personal information publicly.

But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity, the implied argument being that someone who is not Russian cannot be aligned with Russian government narratives. He then repeatedly said he would be happy to prove that identity, as so would strengthen the argument.

So I don’t see the issue with taking him up on an offer he made himself, as long as nothing sensitive is posted publicly and he remains fully in control of what, if anything, he wants to show.

Otherwise, it is fair to ask whether the offer was ever serious, and whether that particular line of argument was being made in good faith.

that's what you said, why you spinning? i insisted out of the blue to identify my self? why didn't also add that you and your gang was constantly pushing the idea that, am not who i say i am, and in a very aggressive manner? so the man decided to prove his identity.

pure western manipulation technique "But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity". sick

 

[personaldesas]

No, but you writing as if you have not been reading the thread, spinning it hard,

that's what you said, why you spinning? i insisted out of the blue to identify my self? why didn't also add that you and your gang was constantly pushing the idea that, am not who i say i am, and in a very aggressive manner? so the man decided to prove his identity.

You are making claims about what I supposedly said or did. Please quote them.

If I misrepresented something, I’ll correct it. But I’m not going to argue against vague accusations or personal attacks. Either show the specific quote, or I’ll assume there is nothing substantive to answer.

pure western manipulation technique "But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity". sick

What exactly is incorrect about that sentence? If I misrepresented your argument, please correct me. But simply calling it “manipulation” does not answer the point.

 

[rsemmes]

You are making claims about what I supposedly said or did.

Eh?

That happens here, really?

 

[deyhere]

You are making claims about what I supposedly said or did. Please quote them.

If I misrepresented something, I’ll correct it. But I’m not going to argue against vague accusations or personal attacks. Either show the specific quote, or I’ll assume there is nothing substantive to answer.



What exactly is incorrect about that sentence? If I misrepresented your argument, please correct me. But simply calling it “manipulation” does not answer the point.

you must think am dumb, you said "But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity". you see your statement when replying to kippotapysh. why didn't also add that you and your gang was constantly pushing the idea that, am not who i say i am, and in a very aggressive manner, so the man decided to prove his identity?
take it easy man.

 

[personaldesas]

you must think am dumb, you said “But he repeatedly pushed back against the idea that he was repeating Russian government talking points by leaning on his identity”. you see your statement when replying to kippotapysh.

If you reread the post you are quoting, you’ll see I already addressed that point.

why didn’t also add that you and your gang was constantly pushing the idea that, am not who i say i am, and in a very aggressive manner

Because that is simply not true. I merely pointed out that your writing does not read like that of a native English speaker, which naturally raises doubts when someone claims to be a native-born Brit.

I also don’t know who you think my “gang” is. People in this thread usually disagree on almost everything, so if you are getting broad pushback from different directions, maybe that is worth reflecting on rather than treating it as coordination.

it went from Russian to Russian troll to not a native English speaker.

Maybe I’m missing something. You say I called you Russian or a Russian troll. But looking back at what I actually wrote, this was my guess:

If I had to guess I’d say you’re a spanish (or romance) speaker.

So where exactly did you read “Russian” or “Russian troll” into that? Maybe that would clear things up for me.

you westerners are so spoilt, this is exactly how you execute foreign policy, it's al most comical.

That is interesting phrasing. As a Brit, do you not count yourself as Western?

 

[Rob c]

Yes, i have been to a lot of African countries, i have almost done the entire continent, just a handful of countries i have not visited. i have an ongoing project in Ghana at the moment.

do you have any idea what the west done to Africa? most of these African countries got their independence in the 60's and are still being robbed till today by the west. should someone go and remind them and galvanise them to turn against the west. don't forget the memories are a bit still fresh?
why you bothered with how many countries Russia invaded when your track record is very bad? 100 years ago Russia done sh**t now you have to arm Ukraine to fight Russia regardless of the outcome, regardless of if they have nuclear weapons.

Perhaps you can explain how these independant countries are still beins robbed with facts.
Last time I Iooked NZ had not invaded anyone in the last 100 years, so I would suggest you stop trying to paint over every one with the same brush ib fact I don't know of any indibidual country that comes close to the Russian total of just under one every 5 years.
You still ignore questions as to why NATO is so bad and as it is the reason given by you for the recent iinvasions lets have some answers.
As for some people disagreing with supporting the current support for Ukraine, in countries like mine fou are allowed to disagree, without falling out of a high windows or having a nerve agent in your tea or being sent to Siberia, This is totally normal and fully excepted and not at all questioned.
If you have travelled so extensively, were do all the funds come from?

 

[personaldesas]

G7 leaders agree to increase sanctions on Russian energy

https://www.ft.com/content/a7b956d0-97ce-4a54-ba1d-e1c6eee9a293

 

[Feanor]

Thread closed pending moderator discussion.

 

[Feanor]

Thread re-opened. Keep political discussions and personal insults out of this conversation. This thread is about the Russo-Ukrainian war, and immediately related subjects. It is not a place to discuss unrelated or tangentially related geopolitics, or other conflicts. Additionally, there is an expectation of post quality, meaningful contributions to the discussion, rather than random asides, rants about politics, or random whataboutism.

 

[personaldesas]

https://www.ft.com/content/923a4168-0b25-4c63-aaa5-f2cb62795abc?syn-25a6b1a6=1

The article paints Ukraine’s military reforms as a belated attempt to contain a deepening manpower crisis. Kyiv is offering fixed-term contracts, higher frontline pay and guaranteed breaks from duty, but the measures stop short of full demobilisation for soldiers who have been fighting for years. The central tension is that Ukraine needs to make service feel less indefinite and more humane, while still relying on compulsory mobilisation to keep depleted frontline units staffed. The reforms may help morale at the margins, but the article suggests the harder problems- exhaustion, distrust of commanders, fear of poor training, desertion and coercive draft practices- remain unresolved.

 

[KipPotapych]

The current “information space” heavily reminds the early invasion days and 2023 environment. There is a clear enormous campaign here, for the past month or two and it only seems to accelerate. We are (literally) back to Bayraktars smashing Russians (won’t reference anything to save on space) and (figuratively) shovel fighting stuff. It’s a little insane. We are also back (literally) to the Russian army turning to overthrow Putin stuff.



Appears to be based on some single clickbait post by a questionable individual. A better source than the one in the tweet above (I only read the first paragraph or two):

In a viral video, a Russian soldier threatens Putin with an army mutiny. He says disgruntled military and security officials came to him and asked him to serve as their messenger. — Meduza

A soldier from the Voronezh region who took part in the invasion of Ukraine and runs a blog on Instagram and other platforms, Alexander Lunin, has recorded a video message addressed to Vladimir Putin.

meduza.io

It appears that we are also back to “liberating Crimea” is just around the corner, imminent collapse of the Russian army, in southern Ukraine in particular, etc. Mykolaiv region seems to have been liberated already, according to the narrative (to note, the original news came from citing a Ukrainian telegram channel citing a “Russian” telegram channel that was likely created by Ukrainians for info-war purposes to begin with). We even have a UA flag to prove it.




Reality is not the same though:



While stranger things have happened in this war, I see the proposal of “potential target” is rather weak as well. I mean, fly a drone and burn the flag if so desired? I don’t know, whatever. This thing (strongly) reminds me of Krynky. Some pointless suicidal missions may be on the horizon. Probably to the beaches of Crimea too.

Some hype of Lukashenko apologizing, backing down (not sure from what) and so on. He wants peace now, apparently. I know people don’t follow (or easily forget due to the amount of “news”), but he has been repeating the same thing for a long time now, Belarus wants peace.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2070154741238407550

The video has English subtitles. He clearly says that they stand with Russia, Ukraine is nothing and the fight is with the West, which cannot be allowed to win.

So a lot of weird stuff.

On the whole Belarus ultimatum that was briefly discussed in the other thread. I didn’t want to participate there and chose to wait for this thread to open up instead (I lost the desire too in the meantime, lol). I, personally, find it mind-boggling that absolute majority of people think it is completely fine and different from Russian threats to the Ukrainian allies. To note, the clown didn’t only threaten to strike Belarus due to the Russian drone attacks, but also supply of fuel, etc. A direct quite from Zelesnky’s threat:

Step one is to end all technical support. A relay station constitutes direct support. Turn it off, remove it, and show us that it has been removed. Since this message was conveyed to them repeatedly, we have now reached the stage of issuing a public signal. If he does not remove it, we will remove everything ourselves. Similarly, we're sending a message: please stop supplying fuel to the Russian army.

Regardless, I tend to think that the probability of Ukraine striking Belarus is extremely low and just manly talk consistent with the rest of the current campaign (Ukraine strong, Russia weak).

To be clear, I think they are all within their rights, both Russia and Ukraine, to strike any supporters they see fit. Dealing with consequences is the other side of the coin and part of the (mis)calculations.

As to who is more involved… I mean this is a weird discussion: one guy may currently provide some space for transmitters/repeaters/whatever, fuel, add whatever you want. The other guys (plural too) provide literally everything, money, space for manufacturing weapons, weapons, fuel, intelligence… literally everything. While not insignificant, one would probably be able to cope without the support provided. The other… well…This thread is still alive and active not because of Belarus’ participation in this conflict or Ukrainian bravery and the like. This clear as day, no?

I will make another post on the subject of “info space”, but not today.

 

[rsemmes]

I cannot help but feel that Zelenski is moving to a "target London" campaign. Of course, we all know what Harris "bomber" did.

Ukraine war briefing: Zelenskyy declares 40-day Russia blitz to ‘influence the aggressor state’

Ukrainian strikes continue to shut down Russian oil refineries and starve Crimea of gasoline and power; Belarus relay stations silenced. What we know on day 1,584

www.theguardian.com

“Influence the aggressor ‌state in order to press for an end to the war.” Zelenski is going to start killing more civilians, then Russia will kill more civilians. What else but reprisals does he think that is going to happen? And he knows that Ukraine is at the receiving end. It didn't work in the past, something that hasn't work in 4 years is going to work in 40 days?

I am pretty sure that the NGSh knows about History, but Zelenski was already advised against the Kursk return ticket. I am at a loss to understand what is he trying to achieve, the "public opinion" is already on his side, not that it matters but, is he hoping for another Russian Revolution in 2027?