The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That’s interesting, because on the surface these two claims describe somewhat different levels of societal commitment: @Aleks.ov view that the war reflects a widespread popular reaction to perceived disrespect toward the country, and yours, @Feanor, view that much of the wealthier parts of society can largely ignore it and carry on as usual, while poorer regions bear the costs and incentives.
There certainly are people who have Aleksov's view of things. Russia has both Soviet nostalgia movements and "derzhavniki" or "great Russia" nationalists who want to see Russia regain lost territories. I don't think this can entirely or even largely explain the support for the war. I think the unpopularity of the Chechen wars and the popularity of the current wars have a lot to do with the material differences. Volunteer recruitment, high salaries, and relatively limited economic impacts at home all translate into a willingness to buy the explanation the government is providing. And I'd like to point out that there isn't necessarily a single cohesive pro-Russian narrative. One of the weak points (failures really) of the modern Russian state is that they don't have an ideological framework. It's why the most effective recruitment tool they have is just cash. So Russian government propaganda often takes a shotgun approach, with some "pellets" true and some not, and some appealing to Russian patriotic sentiment, and some to Soviet nostalgia, and some to anger and frustration with the west, and some with a genuine dislike for the behavior of the Ukrainian central government, etc.
 

crest

Member
That’s interesting, because on the surface these two claims describe somewhat different levels of societal commitment: @Aleks.ov view that the war reflects a widespread popular reaction to perceived disrespect toward the country, and your view, @Feanor, that much of the wealthier parts of society can largely ignore it and carry on as usual, while poorer regions bear the costs and incentives.
What's odd about that? support for the war and actually fighting in it are not both pre requisites for either one being true. Neither is it a abnormal thing for the burden of war to be disporotionitly shouldered by the poor. Especially if it's voluntary and the incentive is financial, I mean if your rich and support the war and ther is actually no real need for you to be on the front lines as there is plenty of manpower. It's not unreasonable or abnormal that you might be found waving the flag in Moscow as opposed as opposed to a active warzone.
Yes and you are wrong to believe that Russia considers NATO a threat, it is however a great excuse to invade Ukraine.
I do believe Russia made that claim long before Ukraine was even being considered for membership (publicly). Do you perhaps think it's possible that they Infact were not bluffing when they said that? You know with hindsight being 20/20 and all
 
No that is not where all evidence points. Mostly the evidence points to Russian leadership realizing the Minsk Accords were a dead end where Ukraine would simply refuse to execute their part of the deal under varying excuses, while continuing to drag out the conflict, and keep Russia tied down. They went into Ukraine in 2022 with an idea of regime change and a forced resolution to the Donbas conflict from '14. Only when that failed did they shift their goals to include territorial expansion, presumably as a way of punishing Ukraine for refusing the Istanbul Accords, and instead trying to win the war militarily.
I don’t think the evidence necessarily supports such a clean, sequential story.

Minsk was never fully implemented by either side, and Russia repeatedly violated ceasefire, withdrawal, and monitoring provisions.

Of course Russia did enter the war expecting a rapid collapse of the Ukrainian government. However, from the first days Russia did push up from Crimea aiming at seizing Kherson and much of Zaporizhzhia. That at least suggests territorial control was an initial objective or, at minimum, a planned parallel fallback, not something adopted only after regime change failed.

It’s also worth noting that Russia had already demonstrated a willingness to revise borders well before 2022, as seen with Crimea and the recognition of DPR/LPR days before the invasion.
 
What's odd about that? support for the war and actually fighting in it are not both pre requisites for either one being true. Neither is it a abnormal thing for the burden of war to be disporotionitly shouldered by the poor. Especially if it's voluntary and the incentive is financial, I mean if your rich and support the war and ther is actually no real need for you to be on the front lines as there is plenty of manpower. It's not unreasonable or abnormal that you might be found waving the flag in Moscow as opposed as opposed to a active warzone.
I understand what you’re saying, but that’s not quite the point I was making. I think @Feanor answer was quite insightful, so I’ll leave it there.
 
That looks a lot like US in Vietnam. Again, nothing new.
You could only come up with a single example? The first ones that come to my mind are France in Algeria, the USSR in Afghanistan, Iran-Iraq, or Chechnya. Not to forget UKs late empire wars!

I think I could probably beat you at whataboutism competition if it came to that ;).
 
Politico.eu said:
Speaking at an annual meeting with the Defense Ministry, the Russian president blamed former U.S. President Joe Biden for “consciously” unleashing the war in Ukraine and said that the “European little pigs” immediately backed the Americans.

Europe wanted to get back “something they’ve lost in previous historic periods and to take revenge” on Russia, Putin said, adding that these plans have “completely failed.”
Politico.eu said:
He praised the Russian military, saying that “no one in the world” has an army as good as Russia’s and that it is now “war experienced.”
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don’t think the evidence necessarily supports such a clean, sequential story.

Minsk was never fully implemented by either side, and Russia repeatedly violated ceasefire, withdrawal, and monitoring provisions.
I think it does. Remember Poroshenko trying to implement the Minsk Accords back in 2016? What was the major obstacle? It was a combination of right-wing elements within the armed forces not cooperating (literally refusing to withdraw to the agreed upon lines), and the Ukrainian Rada being completely unwilling to make the constitutional amendments necessary. It meant that no matter what issues there are with maintaining the ceasefire and dealing with the monitoring provisions, it was not possible for Poroshenko, the president of Ukraine, to get his own country to fulfill the agreement. Now we have admissions made by actors involved in the Minsk Accords that the entire thing was negotiated in bad faith. And those things shouldn't come as a surprise. It was obvious from the start that Ukraine wasn't going to abide by those agreements. Remember Minsk 1.0? It required an exchange of territories, fairly minor ones. LNR forces withdrew checkpoints from a major highway, and Ukraine was supposed to hand over the Donetsk airport and the village of Shirokino. LNR forces pulled back, Ukraine openly refused to withdraw from either. It took rebel forces with Russian support attacking the positions to take what Ukraine was obligated to give. And remember Zelesnky trying to implement Minsk 2.0? He ran into similar problems. Ukraine as a nation-state was simply not willing to follow the agreement they signed regardless of other circumstances, and the collective west was unwilling to pressure them to do so in a meaningful way.

Of course Russia did enter the war expecting a rapid collapse of the Ukrainian government. However, from the first days Russia did push up from Crimea aiming at seizing Kherson and much of Zaporizhzhia. That at least suggests territorial control was an initial objective or, at minimum, a planned parallel fallback, not something adopted only after regime change failed.

It’s also worth noting that Russia had already demonstrated a willingness to revise borders well before 2022, as seen with Crimea and the recognition of DPR/LPR days before the invasion.
Russia pushed up from everywhere to seize everything. They went for Kiev, they even did a landing in Gostomel', and some Russian forces penetrated westward from there towards Zhitomyr (not reaching it though). They fully intended to topple the government and have control of the entire country, the way the US took control of Iraq, and the Soviets took Afghanistan, in one rapid push. However there's a big difference between seizing control and annexing the territory. The second part only came out in the summer of '22 when the war started to turn into a long war, and Russia wanted to put additional pressure on Ukraine as well as punish them for backing out of the Istanbul Accords and being clearly unwilling to settle the war politically in a way Russia would accept. On the flip side I'm sure the annexation was intended to provide some morale boosts at home. I'm sure this was one of the intended consequences. But I'm highly skeptical of the idea that Russia went into Ukraine in 2022 with the specific idea of annexing large chunks of Ukraine to Russia. I suspect that if Russia had toppled the government in '22, they would have put in a new one that recognized the independence of LNR and DNR breakaway regions, recognized Crimea as Russian, and set up a client state regime in the rest of Ukraine.

EDIT: The front line is moving. In the Seversk area Russian forces have firmly taken the heights west of town, Seversk is fully under Russian control, and south of Seversk Russian forces are expanding their control across the Bakhmutovka in the area of Vasyukovka, Pazovoe, and Svyato-Pokrovskoe. In Kupyansk Ukrainian forces continue to gain ground on the right shore, but the specifics of control remain murky and unclear. Russian forces are in a bad situation, and there's no clear way out. In Mirnograd, the pocket is collapsing, and it's just a matter of Russian forces conducting their sweeps and securing the remaining area. Lastly in eastern Zaporozhye Russian forces are firmly across the Gaychur in at least 4 different areas, and have takne the first locale on the right shore, the village of Peschanoe. Gulyaypole itself is mostly under Russian control, but Ukrainian forces hold the built-up city center, and the routes into it from the west, even while Russian forces try to flank them through the outskirts.
 
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crest

Member
Looks like buried in the new defence bill is a small Ukrainian package of 400 mil per year for 2 years. Altho it does not specify if the weapons to be produced for Ukraine are to be given or sold at least as far as I can see.
It does say for production of military equipment tho so I'm guessing mostly shells? Perhaps give the AR a combat trial

 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, since it's basically a purely political discussion, and would be a massive tangent as well as running thoroughly afoul of our rules on politics.
Fair.


On the subject of Kupyansk, the situation remains murky. Here's a video from Dec 15th with Russian soldiers demonstrating what appears to be fairly clear control of an area in the right shore. I've linked the suriyakmaps for that street below too, as well as a Ukrainian map site. The area is claimed in no-mans land. It's possible Russian soldiers took a pretty crazy risk making the video. It's also possible the area was recaptured by Russia, or that the video was shot in advance, though the soldier clearly states the date, and openly mocks Ukrainian claims of recapturing the town. Regardless of minor specifics, the situation for Russian forces on the right shore in Kupyansk remains bad. The only hope is that Ukraine's push eventually runs out of steam and Russia manages to hold on until then. The situation on the left shore has improved significantly, and if Russia can complete the capture of Kucherovka, we can consider the situation to be stabilized there (there being the left shore).

It appears the video was not made in Kupyansk.



Another example of a completely idiotic take and low-level propaganda for the lemmings, their “military reality”:


Consider that the actual advances in Donetsk past the the initial invasion begin on about 40th second of the video (puts us to about the fall of Avdiivka), accelerating since and something clearly changing at about 51st second (puts us to about the capture of Prohres, according to the Wiki timeline, but Feanor, for example, can probably put a better timestamp and the events that unfolded then - about July 2024), when the wave begins and keeps going without a pause. It is pretty clear that everything else being the same, including no further acceleration of the Russian advances, the most obvious outcome is that the rest of Donetsk will fall within the next (rather less than) 15 months. It is reasonable to assume that the rate of advances will increase, at least until the battles for Slovyansk and Kramatorsk begin. There are also plenty of other advances elsewhere that will likely happen within this timeframe. What happens after Donetsk is captured and Ukraine is “still in the fight”, which is not a given? There will certainly be no “territorial swapping” on the table, but possibly (I would say likely) demands for the Ukrainians to leave additional lands. Seems to me that this scenario is somewhat closer to the “military reality”, simply by looking at the presented video and their own logic.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Belousov reports again that Kupiansk was captured by the Russians and Ukrainian forces are unsuccessfully trying to recapture it. I wonder what Gerasimov is telling Putin there.


Belousov famously said when being appointed to the post of the Minister of Defense: “One can make mistakes, but one cannot lie”. He said something along the lines that that should be the core approach or some such. Well…
 
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