The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

rsemmes

Active Member
Russian officials lie a lot
I do know that "officials" lie a lot, I know that western officials lie a lot. Hopefully you know that too.
No, I don't know. Do you know what they think? Well, you cannot trust what they say, do you trust what we say? Based on the evidence that Russia had that NATO, or Ukraine as a NATO member, is a threat? Is this what you would call a rabbit hole?

I cannot see the evidence showing that Russia will invade "Europe" in 2030, but I see a lot of people screaming that we have to prepare for that invasion.
Are they telling the truth because they are not Russians?
 
The global world has irreversibly changed, new centers of power have emerged, and the traditional Western model of expansion and dominance no longer works, this is precisely why conflicts are inevitable.
I agree that the global order is changing and that new centers of power are emerging. I still fail to see how Russia matters more in the new one than it did in the old, or why that would require invading Ukraine.
 

crest

Member
Nonsense. You're seeing it only from ONE point of view, that of the Russian leadership. I'm looking at it from multiple points of view. You're saying that only Russia is right, & Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden, Poland, Moldova, Romania & a dozens of others are all wrong.
Yes I'm saying Russia's choices are based on there point of view. I don't see how that's controversial.
No I'm not saying there right or wrong specifically I addressed that I don't believe it's relivent in deciding how this ends or how it started. I'm saying why matters and for both sides that is true and relivent. again you keep applying right and wrong to this like it's a deciding factor. And it is but only as a matter of perspective. It can be assumed neither side is doing what they believe to be wrong no one fight a war because they believe it's wrong to do so.
The why and how it came to war does matter tho because the why is also ultimately how it it ends once the clash of wills thru military means is done. One side will eventually yield and a deal will be made. And you know what both do des will still believe they were right. Just one side will decide it wasn't worth the price of continued conflict or it's unable to do so and seek compermise. The other side will then make a choice based on how willing it is to continue paying the cost of war vs the degree there willing to soften there position in order to end the war or make a compermise in whatever degree.

With that in mind both sides perspective are important considerations with neither ones to be discarded because of a personal bias in right ot wrong. What matters is the willingness and ability of each side to fight for there position and that is by and large dictated by how "right" they perceive there cause to be and there willingness to pay the costs of war to achieve a satisfactory resulting whatever the issue is. Not by how right anyone else may feel about it unless there also willing to also pay there own war costs over it. That is the reason discarding there perspective is dangerous and counterproductive. Logically if you disregard the other side's motives you have no idea how willing they are to continue fighting and risk lossing a war due to underestimating there willingness to fight a war that you yourself actually are not as commited to or materialy able to do so.

The idea one side is right and one is wrong as a bases for the other side to stop fighting is well dumb, because obviously noone is fighting for what they believe to be wrong, and knowing the degree of importance a nation regarded the issues it's fighting over are vital in understanding how far it may be willing to go in securing it's aims eg something of national security will be much harder for a nation to compermise on then say a land claim.

I hope that explains my position to you and why I regard the Russian reasons for this war as important and relivent regardless of moral judgment on the matter.

Moral arguments are fine and all but when blood starts to get spilled one should be much more of a realist and frankly idealistic notions and moral judgment don't end wars. Rational compermise or brute force and willingness to pay the price of conflict do. My opinion is ideology gets in the way of compermise and compromise is the best option, that is hard to do if you fundamentally reject the validity of the opposing sides position and insite they change it simply because it's wrong. It's way past the point finger pointing is going to change there mind they have already proven there willing to fight you over it...accept that they are doing so for what they believe is a valid reason even better know what that reason is.
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Interesting analysis looking at the current imperialist war through the lens of previous imperialist wars started by Russia:

Despite a larger economy and population base, in some ways autocratic Russia remains less capable of bearing the burdens of a protracted conflict than a democratic Ukraine backed by U.S. and European partners. Kyiv’s own theory of victory, articulated by former Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk, centers on the “strategic neutralization” of Russian offensives, forcing Russia to expend resources for trivial gains until the Kremlin is forced to back down.

Zagorodnyuk’s approach recognizes the inherent limitations of the Russian system. An under-institutionalized autocracy with an extraction-based economy is ill-equipped for a grinding war of attrition, especially one where ordinary citizens are asked to make sacrifices but have little stake in the outcome. Russia has seen this story play out before. As much as Putin portrays the conflict in Ukraine through the lens of World War II, it is modern Russia’s history of failed imperial wars — from Crimea to Afghanistan — that provides the best template for understanding how Putin’s Ukrainian misadventure could end.
The Imperial Trap: Russia’s War in Ukraine and the Lessons of Failed Conquests
 

rsemmes

Active Member
You do know that Russian officials lie a lot, about almost everything? So how do you know what they actually think about this?

In any case; People in Ukraine don't want to be raped, tortured, killed, they don't want to be pressed into military service by Moscow and sent to kill their fellow countrymen in Ukraine, and they don't want their children kidnapped and sent to Russia or even North Korea. So they fight, and Europe should increase support to Ukraine, and do more to sanction russia.
On a personal note... Are you so righteous only about this war or about every war? Only about this war because this thread is about Ukraine? Only about these crimes?
There was a thread about Iraq in the 80's? (I haven't been able to read about many western righteous people in the 80's.)
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I cannot see the evidence showing that Russia will invade "Europe" in 2030, but I see a lot of people screaming that we have to prepare for that invasion.
Russia claimed until the day before the full scale invasion of Ukraine that they had absolutely no intention of launching a full scale invasion. Yet they did. European countries cannot trust Russia this has been demonstrated again and again and again. O course Europe must urgently prepare for additional russian invasions.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
On a personal note... Are you so righteous only about this war or about every war? Only about this war because this thread is about Ukraine? Only about these crimes?
There was a thread about Iraq in the 80's? (I haven't been able to read about many western righteous people in the 80's.)
Please stop the whataboutism, this is about Russia invading Ukraine.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Yes I'm saying Russia's choices are based on there point of view. I don't see how that's controversial.
No I'm not saying there right or wrong specifically I addressed that I don't believe it's relivent in deciding how this ends or how it started. I'm saying why matters and for both sides that is true and relivent. again you keep applying right and wrong to this like it's a deciding factor. And it is but only as a matter of perspective. It can be assumed neither side is doing what they believe to be wrong no one fight a war because they believe it's wrong to do so.
The why and how it came to war does matter tho because the why is also ultimately how it it ends once the clash of wills thru military means is done. One side will eventually yield and a deal will be made. And you know what both do des will still believe they were right. Just one side will decide it wasn't worth the price of continued conflict or it's unable to do so and seek compermise. The other side will then make a choice based on how willing it is to continue paying the cost of war vs the degree there willing to soften there position in order to end the war or make a compermise in whatever degree.

With that in mind both sides perspective are important considerations with neither ones to be discarded because of a personal bias in right ot wrong. What matters is the willingness and ability of each side to fight for there position and that is by and large dictated by how "right" they perceive there cause to be and there willingness to pay the costs of war to achieve a satisfactory resulting whatever the issue is. Not by how right anyone else may feel about it unless there also willing to also pay there own war costs over it. That is the reason discarding there perspective is dangerous and counterproductive. Logically if you disregard the other side's motives you have no idea how willing they are to continue fighting and risk lossing a war due to underestimating there willingness to fight a war that you yourself actually are not as commited to or materialy able to do so.

The idea one side is right and one is wrong as a bases for the other side to stop fighting is well dumb, because obviously noone is from fighting for what they believe to be wrong. I hope that explains my position to you and why I regard the Russian reasons for this war as important and relivent regardless of moral judgment on the matter.

Moral arguments are fine and all but when blood starts to get spilled one should be much more of a realist and frankly idealistic notions and moral judgment don't end wars but rational compermise or brute force and willingness to pay the price of conflict do. My opinion is ideology gets in the way of compermise and compromise is the best option
I'm afraid that the point is that Russia is evil, Russia is wrong and we are right. (How are going to explain to Rome that Carthage is right.)
 
What I find unconvincing is the tendency to strip Russia of agency, as if it were only capable of reacting mechanically to whatever the world throws at it.

In this framing, everyone else is treated as a fully intentional actor whose choices carry responsibility, while Russia is excused as merely “responding,” constrained by imperfect information and external pressure. That asymmetry makes little sense.

Russia is a sovereign state with intelligence services, diplomats, military planners, and a leadership that actively chooses between options. Acting on poor assumptions or flawed information does not remove responsibility, it is still a failure of judgment.

Bad decisions remain bad decisions, regardless of who makes them or how sincerely they were believed to be necessary.
 
Yes I'm saying Russia's choices are based on there point of view. I don't see how that's controversial.
No I'm not saying there right or wrong specifically I addressed that I don't believe it's relivent in deciding how this ends or how it started. I'm saying why matters and for both sides that is true and relivent. again you keep applying right and wrong to this like it's a deciding factor. And it is but only as a matter of perspective. It can be assumed neither side is doing what they believe to be wrong no one fight a war because they believe it's wrong to do so.
The why and how it came to war does matter tho because the why is also ultimately how it it ends once the clash of wills thru military means is done. One side will eventually yield and a deal will be made. And you know what both do des will still believe they were right. Just one side will decide it wasn't worth the price of continued conflict or it's unable to do so and seek compermise. The other side will then make a choice based on how willing it is to continue paying the cost of war vs the degree there willing to soften there position in order to end the war or make a compermise in whatever degree.

With that in mind both sides perspective are important considerations with neither ones to be discarded because of a personal bias in right ot wrong. What matters is the willingness and ability of each side to fight for there position and that is by and large dictated by how "right" they perceive there cause to be and there willingness to pay the costs of war to achieve a satisfactory resulting whatever the issue is. Not by how right anyone else may feel about it unless there also willing to also pay there own war costs over it. That is the reason discarding there perspective is dangerous and counterproductive. Logically if you disregard the other side's motives you have no idea how willing they are to continue fighting and risk lossing a war due to underestimating there willingness to fight a war that you yourself actually are not as commited to or materialy able to do so.

The idea one side is right and one is wrong as a bases for the other side to stop fighting is well dumb, because obviously noone is fighting for what they believe to be wrong, and knowing the degree of importance a nation regarded the issues it's fighting over are vital in understanding how far it may be willing to go in securing it's aims eg something of national security will be much harder for a nation to compermise on then say a land claim.

I hope that explains my position to you and why I regard the Russian reasons for this war as important and relivent regardless of moral judgment on the matter.

Moral arguments are fine and all but when blood starts to get spilled one should be much more of a realist and frankly idealistic notions and moral judgment don't end wars. Rational compermise or brute force and willingness to pay the price of conflict do. My opinion is ideology gets in the way of compermise and compromise is the best option, that is hard to do if you fundamentally reject the validity of the opposing sides position and insite they change it simply because it's wrong. It's way past the point finger pointing is going to change there mind they have already proven there willing to fight you over it...accept that they are doing so for what they believe is a valid reason even better know what that reason is.
You argue that understanding what Russia is fighting for is essential to understanding how far it’s willing to go.

If you’ve already addressed this, I may have missed it, I apologize. But very concretely: what, in your view, is Russia trying to secure in Ukraine? What specific, concrete end state is desired and vital enough to justify this level of cost?
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Russia claimed until the day before the full scale invasion of Ukraine that they had absolutely no intention of launching a full scale invasion. Yet they did. European countries cannot trust Russia this has been demonstrated again and again and again. O course Europe must urgently prepare for additional russian invasions.
Evidence.
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
You argue that understanding what Russia is fighting for is essential to understanding how far it’s willing to go.

If you’ve already addressed this, I may have missed it, I apologize. But very concretely: what, in your view, is Russia trying to secure in Ukraine? What specific, concrete end state is desired and vital enough to justify this level of cost?
At this point it is quite irrelevant I suppose, Putin can't just say "major victory: after four years and a million casualties we conquered 10% of Ukraine and not even the entirety of Donbass...
 

crest

Member
You argue that understanding what Russia is fighting for is essential to understanding how far it’s willing to go.

If you’ve already addressed this, I may have missed it, I apologize. But very concretely: what, in your view, is Russia trying to secure in Ukraine? What specific, concrete end state is desired and vital enough to justify this level of cost?
Well to a large degree I look to Russia's own statements here and I give them credit because they are long-standing and consistent. Those two factors do matter in a world of propaganda and naritive setting. There actions are also consistent with there positions on the matter of Ukraine. The over all position mind you not tactical things like saying they don't plan to invade just before they do. Even tho they have stated may times it would be something they would fight over.

For one there position that in no way can Ukraine present a military threat to Russia, history Russia has always been vulnerable from that axis of attack they also want a buffer between them and what they consider a anti Russian military alince on there boarder. Also the term areas of influence well Russia considers Ukraine to be in there's

Two the black sea the threat of cutting off Russia from it's only natural warm water port is a critical factor in Russias ability to project power or defend itself against a blockade aswell as retain sovereignty over its own maritime trade network. From there perspective lossing Crimea would-be a major blow to Russia as a sovereign power in the world and make it depended on the goodwill of other nations. Or frankly I'm real terms hostage to deals not in its interests.

Three and to a lesser degree the Russian population in Ukraine the historicaly and socialy deeply rooted Russian populations protection against the objectively anti Russian government that came to power. Well I doubt this would have been a cause for war it at this point is a core demand Russia is a fairly patriotic state and it's hard to see how once used to sell the war to the people of Russia the government could let the Oblasts with deep Russian roots be abandoned without serious internal anger over it.

Fourth and think the fundamental issue. Russia believes itself to be a sovereign power on the world stage (read a world power with the ability to not have terms dictated to it) the hard reality of that is that from that perspective if it allows itself to be stripped of the tools of such powers. Allows itself to be surrounded by armies it considers hostile and shown to be incapable of protecting its people. Well it would no longer be a nation that other powerful nations would have to respect and find itself at the mercy nations not strong enough to exercise there sovereignty in all aspects of nationhood find themselves in when dealing with other stronger powers. And that is the fundamental threat to the state Russia seams to be concerned about.

I know many will disagree with that fourth point as irrelevant but I think history current and previous shows this to be true. It is a ugly truth but a truth none the less at least from the Russian perspective or indeed from the perspective of any major power. Like it or not agree with it or not on the world stage only the nation's capable of protecting there interests have true sovereignty. Imop the west thought they could limit Russia's ability to do so or at least Russia believes that to be the case and this is the cause for war.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I disagree that the war is "sustainable for Russia for years to come" -- you are right that Ukraine needs a lot of support from other countries however also Russia is dependent on support from China, North Korea to keep things running. If in particular if China stopped all support Russia would soon run into issues. So both parties are dependent on other countries to keep the war going at least at the current level.
This isn't really the same. China isn't supplying aid to Russia for free. Russia is buying what they need. And they're buying it from many countries. Ukraine can't buy what it needs, they can't even pay their government salaries without foreign aid. This is one of the factors that makes the war sustainable for Russia and unsustainable for Ukraine. If Russia depended on political decisions to allocate funds to support their war efforts, their position would be much more precarious. Instead China (India, Iran, Brazil, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc.) has to simply not join sanctions against Russia.

This is key to understanding Ukraine's problem. The total volume of aid to Ukraine has been massive but the aid levels have been inconsistent, they've gone down over time, and they've been largely "take what we have" not "here's what you need". Let me give you a prime example. Ukraine badly needs good AAA to deal with Russian drone attacks. The Gepards they got from Germany are a good example of an older system that's nonetheless doing valuable work. However they only got ~100 or so of them. They need more like 1-2 thousand such systems to cover all major urban areas. The logical solution for aid to Ukraine is to produce modern versions of the Gepard and deploy them to Ukraine. Enter the German Skynex, of which Ukraine got.... 8. Eight. Let that sink in. 8 in 3+ years of Russian long-range strikes. The Brits jumped in to help recently and handed over the Terrahawk Paladin. 4 of them. Is anybody working on a plan to ramp up AAA for Ukraine in bulk? We're about to be in the fifth year of this war (in a couple of months).

Russia doesn't have this problem. Russia has other problems, sure, but not this one. If Russia needs more AAA, they can produce it themselves, with inputs sourced from China, or India, or anyone else willing to sell to them. And despite all the lies from politicians, Russia is not isolated internationally. Much of the world is simply willing to keep trading with Russia, as long as they're not actively involved in supplying the military directly. Some are willing to trade with Russia even when they are actively involved in supplying the Russian military. Prime example, Streit Group delivering armored vehicles with American components to the Russian National Guard. Or Egypt getting caught selling munitions to Russia. These players aren't making the political decision to allocate resources to support Russia's war effort. They're simply profiting from the war. There's a huge difference, and you're attempting to plaster over it with equivocations.

All the evidence points to Russia invading Ukraine not because of a hypothetical "NATO threat" (irrespective of that perceived threat being is real or not) but because they wanted to expand their empire. Ukraine was not about to enter NATO, and Russia knows full well that just the threat of invasion would have been enough to keep Ukraine out of NATO, indefinitely. However, Russia wanted much more than that, they wanted their empire back. Putin found it difficult to build an empire without invading Ukraine. So from his perspective it was logical to invade. Most people in Europe will not accept this, and therefore we should and must support Ukraine until Russia accepts that they must stop this madness. And Ukraine should of course be accepted into NATO, if they want to of course.

Russia can of course believe and say whatever they want. What they cannot do, is invade other countries in Europe, whatever reason they have invented for doing so, and I believe there have been many (NATO, de-Nazification, de-satanisation, de-jewification, etc.).
No that is not where all evidence points. Mostly the evidence points to Russian leadership realizing the Minsk Accords were a dead end where Ukraine would simply refuse to execute their part of the deal under varying excuses, while continuing to drag out the conflict, and keep Russia tied down. They went into Ukraine in 2022 with an idea of regime change and a forced resolution to the Donbas conflict from '14. Only when that failed did they shift their goals to include territorial expansion, presumably as a way of punishing Ukraine for refusing the Istanbul Accords, and instead trying to win the war militarily.

Yes, I am genuinely surprised.

I understand resentment over sanctions, companies leaving the country, frozen assets, barred athletes, and the way Russians are supposedly portrayed in Western media. What I struggle to understand is how these grievances translate into a widespread willingness to have one’s sons and brothers sent to die in a foreign land (which is not even a Western country). What does that solve?
It's not seen as a foreign land. It's seen a sort-of Russia (large parts of it anyway) that got independent in '91. That's a big part of the views on this. And again, remember it's not your sons and brother getting sent. It's largely voluntary enlistments that are generously compensated. If one's son or brother opts for a 6 months enlistment and comes back with enough cash to buy a home, wearing medals, and looking pretty in their uniform, you may have had misgivings about it but you're not going to be against the war. In poorer parts of Russia, the influx of war cash has been a real boon. And in richer parts of Russia you don't have to go to war, you can just keep working your job, living your life, and pretending there is no war.

At this point it is quite irrelevant I suppose, Putin can't just say "major victory: after four years and a million casualties we conquered 10% of Ukraine and not even the entirety of Donbass...
He can say it, the question is whether people would believe it. And let's be clear, it's more like 20% of Ukraine now. This is also key to the ongoing peace negotiations - all of the Donbas. Russia is requiring Ukraine leave the rest of Donetsk region as part of any ceasefire deal. Clearly Putin isn't willing to declare victory without taking all of the Donbas. And he's on track to do so by the end of next year, give or take.
 
In poorer parts of Russia, the influx of war cash has been a real boon. And in richer parts of Russia you don't have to go to war, you can just keep working your job, living your life, and pretending there is no war.
That’s interesting, because on the surface these two claims describe somewhat different levels of societal commitment: @Aleks.ov view that the war reflects a widespread popular reaction to perceived disrespect toward the country, and your view, @Feanor, that much of the wealthier parts of society can largely ignore it and carry on as usual, while poorer regions bear the costs and incentives.
 
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Redshift

Active Member
We have been here before:
If Russia considers that Ukraine's NATO's membership is a threat, it is a threat. The threat (to Russia) exist based on Russian's considerations, not on yours, not on NATO's.
It is naive, or something else, to think that we rule what is a threat from a second country to a third country. (And, adding -out of thread- hypocrisy to that, we react to those threats very selectively.)
Yes and you are wrong to believe that Russia considers NATO a threat, it is however a great excuse to invade Ukraine.
 
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