The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
Elections after banning both the Party of Regions and the CPRF. That's like having an election in the US where you ban the Democrats, and any green party/social democrat alternatives. Then run the Republicans (Poroshenko) against white nationalists and neo-Nazis, as well as a few transparently self serving oligarchical interest groups. And then proceed to sanitize the political space for several years. Then have a second election where a candidate that looks like a Democrat (but isn't) runs against the sanitized collection of oligarchs and right-wing loons. Oh and if you form a party that's critical of the government, even pro-western liberal criticism, you're out. Anatoly Shariy anyone? I don't want to go too deep into the dark pit of Ukrainian domestic politics, but if you attempted to present a pro-Russian position in Ukraine post-'14 you would be shut down. One way or another. That simply isn't democracy. Zelensky got his majority because he claimed to be the president of peace. He failed to deliver on that promise (failing to implement the Minsk Accords just like Poroshenko), and if not for Russia's stupid invasion, his support now would look like Poroshenko's did at the end of his term. It's another great reason about why Russia was stupid to invade.
Russia's invasion secured his position. No invasion and he would be another failed non-entity.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting development, surely in view of the grain situation. Via Google translate:
We no longer transfer weapons to Ukraine, we will now arm ourselves with the most modern weapons - said Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki on Wednesday in Polsat News. He added that he focuses on modernization and rapid armament of the Polish army so that in a short time it becomes one of the strongest in Europe.[…]
The Prime Minister was also asked about the words of President Andrzej Duda spoken in New York that Ukraine behaves like a drowning man who grabs everything.
"These are very accurate words" - he said.
"If I were to look for something to justify (Ukraine), it's only what we all know very well: that Ukraine defends itself against a bestial Russian attack and we understand that this attack creates a completely incredible situation, one that we have not faced since World War II. This is a regular war simply" - he said.
Asked whether Poland will still support Ukraine militarily, Morawiecki informed that currently Poland does not provide Ukraine with any weapons, because now "we will arm ourselves, the most modern weapons".
"If you do not want to defend yourself, you must have something to defend yourself - this is the principle we adhere to, which is why we have made increased orders" - he emphasised.
Also as likely translation is we gave all the scraps and other stuff that we didn’t want for ourselves and now will rebuild our kit with modern (and semi-modern) alternatives.
Source: Premier: nie przekazujemy uzbrojenia na Ukrainę, teraz sami się zbroimy
We no longer transfer weapons to Ukraine, we will now arm ourselves with the most modern weapons - said Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki on Wednesday in Polsat News. He added that he focuses on modernization and rapid armament of the Polish army so that in a short time it becomes one of the strongest in Europe.[…]
The Prime Minister was also asked about the words of President Andrzej Duda spoken in New York that Ukraine behaves like a drowning man who grabs everything.
"These are very accurate words" - he said.
"If I were to look for something to justify (Ukraine), it's only what we all know very well: that Ukraine defends itself against a bestial Russian attack and we understand that this attack creates a completely incredible situation, one that we have not faced since World War II. This is a regular war simply" - he said.
Asked whether Poland will still support Ukraine militarily, Morawiecki informed that currently Poland does not provide Ukraine with any weapons, because now "we will arm ourselves, the most modern weapons".
"If you do not want to defend yourself, you must have something to defend yourself - this is the principle we adhere to, which is why we have made increased orders" - he emphasised.
Also as likely translation is we gave all the scraps and other stuff that we didn’t want for ourselves and now will rebuild our kit with modern (and semi-modern) alternatives.
Source: Premier: nie przekazujemy uzbrojenia na Ukrainę, teraz sami się zbroimy
Its not a coincidence that Ukraine has a bottomless stash of money to call on, look at the attitude of Ukrainian officials towards their European colleagues, not very nice considering the capital EU has poured into this war, Ukraine is telling EU shut up, we are doing the job for you.
what am trying to say is that, it is dangerous to push a nuclear armed country into to desperation.
Because Putin is not responding to global hawks in the Black Sea or star link, doesn’t guarantee that he wouldn’t respond in future.
Is there any guarantee that Putin won’t use nukes?
or is a nuclear war winnable now?
I don’t see how you can’t see that we can wake up one morning to the mother of all escalation.
Why do u want to play Nuclear Roulette with the Russians? I don’t
This article provides some background to the opposition by the Ukrainian people to the then government
How Ukraine’s Orange Revolution shaped twenty-first century geopolitics - Atlantic Council
have included some material from WIKI that goes further into the murky politics of the time and some of the questionable actions by the government which led to widespread demonstrations ,unlike the Russian led "little Green men" and masked thugs in the East and Crimea
2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia
How Ukraine’s Orange Revolution shaped twenty-first century geopolitics - Atlantic Council
have included some material from WIKI that goes further into the murky politics of the time and some of the questionable actions by the government which led to widespread demonstrations ,unlike the Russian led "little Green men" and masked thugs in the East and Crimea
2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia
The reason why Russia must not be allowed to use military means to expand their territory is because if you let them do so because you are scared of their nuclear weapons, then:
1. All nuclear powers are now allowed to expand their territory because if anyone says no, they'll just play the "do you want to play nuclear roulette" card.
2. All non-nuclear power sees that if one has nuclear weapons then they can get away with anything and thus the only way to secure their territory is to have their own nuclear weapons. You want nuclear roulette? Try it when all the middle power and up have their own nuclear weapons.
.
There's a much better argument. Russia must not be allowed to expand its territory by military means because that kind of behavior is unacceptable to the international community and is in direct conflict with the type of international order most of the world is striving for.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
I believe the following images tell the whole story.
Note that Kravchuk was the only head of state in the post-Union space (Baltics aside, they were never really Soviet even though they were) who lost his first actual election. Kuchma, who wasn’t a Russian puppet but definitely had a more moderate attitude towards the balance with Russia, took the throne and remained in power tor the following 10 years. His reelection in 1999 is about the only one that deviates from the regular pattern, all the way to Mr. Zelensky (and his election wasn’t really that much of a deviation either, which will be visible in the last image):
Why is that? Why is the west voting for “moderate” Kuchma and with such a strong support? Well, the answer is simple: he ran against a communist who received 38% of the vote. That would be 8 years after the collapse of the Union.
Then came 2004 and orange revolution. The map clearly shows who was upset and to what degree. Note that there were two groups upset for different/opposite reasons.
Five years later, Yushchenko went into the abyss and Yanukovych won the election over Timishenko (who later served a term in prison, abrupted by the next revolution). The results of the 2010 election are about the same as ever in terms of the division of the country:
Note here that the support for Tymoshenko in the west wasn’t as strong as it was for Yushchenko 5 years prior, but she won some regions over Yanukovych that Yushchenko couldn’t. That is because she was perceived to be a more moderate candidate, especially after the opponent was labeled to be a Russian puppet, which, of course, he wasn’t.
And so came December of 2013, followed by 2014, before the president’s term was over. We all know what happened then. So the next map of the election results looks like a familiar image:
The main observation here is that the western Ukraine never had such a weak (relatively speaking) support for their preferred candidate previously. This can partially be explained by the fact that there were a few people running, including recently freed Timoshenko, but overall pickings were pretty slim. Especially given the censorship, including by force, literally. Anyway, we all know how that went and ended. That ended with Mr. Zelensky coming out of nowhere (politically speaking, otherwise he was pretty known and well liked) and swiping the next round with something like 73% of the vote. Here is the map:
Note where his support is the strongest. Including that little region in the most south-west, next to Hungary. That’d be Zakarpattia that, if you look at all of the previous maps (Poroshenko aside)is always supportive of the pro-western candidates, but just not as much as the rest of the western Ukraine. Why is that that they had supported Zelensky a little bit more than their neighbours in the west of the country? Well, to some degree because of this:
Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers.
The law, which obliges all citizens to know the Ukrainian language and makes it a mandatory requirement for civil servants, soldiers, doctors, and teachers, was championed by outgoing President Petro Poroshenko.
He is expected to sign it into law before he leaves office in coming weeks after losing re-election on Sunday to Volodymyr Zelenskiy, an actor who mainly speaks Russian in public.
Zelenskiy, who played a schoolteacher-turned-president in a Russian-language comedy series on Ukrainian TV before launching his political career, said on Thursday his team would examine the new law to see if the rights of all citizens were respected.
“We must initiate and adopt laws and decisions that consolidate society, and not vice versa,” he wrote on Facebook.
Zelenskiy said the draft law’s origins during the electoral cycle “made it hostage to political rhetoric”, adding that it was hard to predict the consequences of adopting the law.
Source: Ukraine passes language law, irritating president-elect and Russia.
Of course that has nothing (or not a lot) to do with the Russian language, as far the voters from that region are concerned, but Hungarian. He was, again, a moderate candidate. And, of course, that goes on top of promises of ending the war and corruption.
Also, people watch too much TV, obviously, and saw him as the guy he played in the series (which I watched most of the episodes of, I believe).
Andriy Bychenko, an analyst at the Razumkov Centre think-tank in Kiev, said the fact Zelensky is a native Russian speaker plays well in those regions but it is not a key factor.
"There are people (in Russian-speaking areas) who don't want a rapprochement with Russia but feel closer to Zelensky because he's a Russophone," he said.
According to a recent survey, Zelensky's supporters are fans of his personality rather than his policy positions.
He has remained vague on the ways he would tackle the most serious crisis to hit Ukraine since it gained independence in 1991.
Shulyatieva said his lack of political experience would not put her off voting for him.
"He'll get all that experience in a year. He'll have a group of people around him to support him."
Source: For Russian speakers in Ukraine, a candidate talking their language - France 24
I am probably getting to the character limit on this post, so I will cut it here by providing sources for the maps above.
Images 1, 3, 4, 5 are taken from 10 maps that explain Ukraine’s struggle for independence | Brookings.
Image 2 is from Wikipedia (I didn’t want to look for a legit source and this one is good enough for the subject matter): 1999 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia
Image 6, the last one is adopted from Reuters: Ukraine election
The following article, in my opinion, describes Zelensky very well, though I do disagree with the author on some of his points. But overall, I think it is a fairly well written piece and a good portrait of the man. I am not sure if it is behind a paywall; used to be you could read one article free before it shuts a paywall on you, even if you access the same article, so read in one sitting, so to speak.
The Tragedy of Volodymyr Zelensky, by Michael C. Desch
Beyond the Ukrainian president’s finest hour
harpers.org
P. S. Zelensky’s last name is the only one that isn’t underlined in red when “properly” spelled, as opposed to all last names mentioned above (though the proper spelling is what the Reuter’s article cited above did - Zelenskiy). I thought it was funny for the past long while now.
I to wonder what they can move through their internal canal system. @Feanor may have some knowledge of this and hopefully he can enlighten us.
It's politics and in wartime such politics are important. We might not agree with it nor do we have to like it.
From a personal point of view, I consider Crimea as sovereign Ukrainian territory and as such should be returned to Ukraine. It is also what I see as a legal POV. For anything less to happen undermines international law.
From a professional POV, the legalities not withstanding, I think UKR would struggle to retake Crimea and the politicians in the west may not support it for their own domestic political reasons. They talk the talk but refuse to walk the walk.
I seen a BBC report on it. They are putting it down to election politicking.
The Teutonic Order hasn't had territorial claims since 1561, when their possessions were formally annexed as vasall states by Poland.
The last Old Prussian aborigines went extinct as a distinct ethnicity around 1700.
East Prussia was only part of Germany between 1871 and 1945 as part of the German Empire and before that between 1848 and 1851 as part of Prussia's abortive "German Union".
Update. Interesting tidbits.
Ok it appears we have an answer to the 70km mystery. It appears this is the Izdelie 51 longer range Lancet variant. To be clear, this is an upgraded Izdelie 51, which itself is an upgraded Lancet. It also shows off production of the type at the Aeroscan factory. Note this is a small private firm highlighting the irony. Large Russian defense giants can't move the needle but a small innovator can. It's also interesting that the production facility also has a training center for operators. Lastly they show off a domestic Shahed alternative, that isn't a clone of it but rather an independent though clearly inspired system. It's called Italmas.
vk.com
A Romanian APR-40 MLRS has shown up in Ukraine. This is essentially a Romania Grad equivalent and yet another reminder that not all deliveries of weapons are given media coverage. The true volume of aid to Ukraine is staggering and both highlights the massive scale of this conflict and on the other hand shows just how much support Ukraine has as the victim of aggression.
vk.com
2 destroyed improvised bridges near Kupyansk. Russia has reportedly been striking these crossing and information is now trickling in confirming at least some of that. This is likely preparatory shaping operations before a Russian push towards the Oskol. According to fragments recovered from one location the strike was carried out by a very rare Russian Grom gliding munition. This is a new-built, not a conversion kit for existing bombs, and is generally regarded as expensive.
vk.com
vk.com
t.me
The cargo ship Seama heading from Turkey to Izmail, Ukraine, hit a seamine off the coast of Romania. This is almost certainly a Ukrainian mine, they planted quite a few of those around Odessa. They've also been spotted drifting previously.
vk.com
A look at a failed Ukrainian attack near Verbovoe, with many destroyed vehicles. So far it appears Ukrainian attempts to break deeper through Russian lines in the Rabotino salient have failed. As of now reportedly Ukrainian attacks in Zaporozhye have died down as Ukraine regroups and resupplies.
t.me
Piles of wrecked and destroyed Ukrainian vehicles near Novomayorskoe. Listed in the post are:
-3 tanks;
-2 IFVs;
-6 MRAP;
-4 cars/trucks;
-1 ARV;
-2 unknown light armor;
-1 something burned down completely
colonelcassad.livejournal.com
It appears Russia is resuming widespread strikes across Ukraine, including targeting energy infrastructure. The recent wave of strikes went beyond the narrow focus of the ports, and instead struck a number of targets including a power substation in Rovno. This is likely the beginning of what will be a large campaign of strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure this coming fall. One other notable target was a hotel in Cherkasy where allegedly foreign fighters were staying. Russia has made it a point to target rear areas where foreign fighters are staying. Partly this is no doubt due to the effectiveness of professional foreign ex-military personnel, but there is clearly also an intent to discourage participation in the fight.
t.me
t.me
t.me
t.me
Last but not least, Ukraine's 57th Mech training with newly delivered Rosomak APCs. As Soviet-era stockpiles of WarPac kit are slowly disappearing, supplies of newer vehicles are the inevitable pattern. To me the recent Polish statement that they will not be supplying weapons to Ukraine isn't just political posturing, but also a reflection that Poland doesn't necessarily have another couple thousand units of old kit to hand over. So far we've seen Polish ZU-23-2s, Kub TELs, BMP-1s, T-72M1s, PT-91s, Grads, 2S1s, and Osa SAMs. We saw Krab howitzer deliveries earlier, and now Rosomak APCs. Another interesting note, there have been quiet indicators that Ukraine is preparing new units and refitting units that took losses in the offensive. This both partially confirms heavy losses from the fighting, and suggests that Ukraine is preparing for a major fight this winter. I wouldn't be surprised to see these fresh forces show up on the Oskol front to counter the impending Russian offensive towards Kupyansk.
vk.com
Ok it appears we have an answer to the 70km mystery. It appears this is the Izdelie 51 longer range Lancet variant. To be clear, this is an upgraded Izdelie 51, which itself is an upgraded Lancet. It also shows off production of the type at the Aeroscan factory. Note this is a small private firm highlighting the irony. Large Russian defense giants can't move the needle but a small innovator can. It's also interesting that the production facility also has a training center for operators. Lastly they show off a domestic Shahed alternative, that isn't a clone of it but rather an independent though clearly inspired system. It's called Italmas.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
A Romanian APR-40 MLRS has shown up in Ukraine. This is essentially a Romania Grad equivalent and yet another reminder that not all deliveries of weapons are given media coverage. The true volume of aid to Ukraine is staggering and both highlights the massive scale of this conflict and on the other hand shows just how much support Ukraine has as the victim of aggression.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
2 destroyed improvised bridges near Kupyansk. Russia has reportedly been striking these crossing and information is now trickling in confirming at least some of that. This is likely preparatory shaping operations before a Russian push towards the Oskol. According to fragments recovered from one location the strike was carried out by a very rare Russian Grom gliding munition. This is a new-built, not a conversion kit for existing bombs, and is generally regarded as expensive.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
VK.com | VK
vk.com
Colonelcassad
Одна из уничтоженных переправ ВСУ в районе Купянска. Противник по этому поводу сообщал, что 2 таких импровизированных переправы через Оскол были уничтожены корректируемыми авиабомбами вместе с центральным мостом через Оскол в Купянске. Уничтожение этих переправ и мост в Купянске осложнило...
t.me
The cargo ship Seama heading from Turkey to Izmail, Ukraine, hit a seamine off the coast of Romania. This is almost certainly a Ukrainian mine, they planted quite a few of those around Odessa. They've also been spotted drifting previously.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
A look at a failed Ukrainian attack near Verbovoe, with many destroyed vehicles. So far it appears Ukrainian attempts to break deeper through Russian lines in the Rabotino salient have failed. As of now reportedly Ukrainian attacks in Zaporozhye have died down as Ukraine regroups and resupplies.
Colonelcassad
Разгром бронегруппы ВСУ при попытке наступления на Вербовое — нашими глазами. После трёхнедельного перерыва Киев массово кинул в бой западную и другую технику — и крайне неудачно. Разведчики 22-й бригады спецназначения ГРУ засекли атаку и на протяжении семи часов боя наводили огонь на врага...
t.me
Piles of wrecked and destroyed Ukrainian vehicles near Novomayorskoe. Listed in the post are:
-3 tanks;
-2 IFVs;
-6 MRAP;
-4 cars/trucks;
-1 ARV;
-2 unknown light armor;
-1 something burned down completely
Кладбище техники под Новомайорским
Кладбище техники под Новомайорским Разведчики 14 гвардейской бригады посредством БЛА задокументировали значительную часть техники ВСУ, которая была уничтожена/повреждена/брошена к северу от Новомайорского. Что-то из этого металлолома уже неоднократно фигурировало в других видео разгрома 35 обрмп…
colonelcassad.livejournal.com
It appears Russia is resuming widespread strikes across Ukraine, including targeting energy infrastructure. The recent wave of strikes went beyond the narrow focus of the ports, and instead struck a number of targets including a power substation in Rovno. This is likely the beginning of what will be a large campaign of strikes against Ukrainian energy infrastructure this coming fall. One other notable target was a hotel in Cherkasy where allegedly foreign fighters were staying. Russia has made it a point to target rear areas where foreign fighters are staying. Partly this is no doubt due to the effectiveness of professional foreign ex-military personnel, but there is clearly also an intent to discourage participation in the fight.
Рыбарь
Массированный удар по объектам на территории Украины Минувшей ночью ВС РФ нанесли удары по целям в разных частях страны. Это едва ли не первый массированный налет за последнее время — последние несколько месяцев российские войска обычно ограничивались точечным поражением конкретных объектов...
t.me
Colonelcassad
По ряду неподтвержденных пока данных, в Черкассах накрыли некоторое кол-во "иностранцев". Также серьезно повреждены объекты инфраструктуры. В Ровно поражен объект энергоструктуры. Местный гауляйтер заявил о прилете по распределительной станции ТЭС. Ожидаемое возобновление кампании ударов по...
t.me
Colonelcassad
Разрушения в Черкассах. Одна из ракет поразила гостиницу, где ночевали "иностранцы".
t.me
Рыбарь
По удару в Черкасской области, где зачищена от иностранной нечисти одна из гостиниц В селе Оршанец под Черкассами работает учебный центр на базе учебки погранслужбы. Въезд в само село закрыт для всех. Любых приезжих проверяет военная полиция на блокпостах и разворачивает (если только не на...
t.me
Last but not least, Ukraine's 57th Mech training with newly delivered Rosomak APCs. As Soviet-era stockpiles of WarPac kit are slowly disappearing, supplies of newer vehicles are the inevitable pattern. To me the recent Polish statement that they will not be supplying weapons to Ukraine isn't just political posturing, but also a reflection that Poland doesn't necessarily have another couple thousand units of old kit to hand over. So far we've seen Polish ZU-23-2s, Kub TELs, BMP-1s, T-72M1s, PT-91s, Grads, 2S1s, and Osa SAMs. We saw Krab howitzer deliveries earlier, and now Rosomak APCs. Another interesting note, there have been quiet indicators that Ukraine is preparing new units and refitting units that took losses in the offensive. This both partially confirms heavy losses from the fighting, and suggests that Ukraine is preparing for a major fight this winter. I wouldn't be surprised to see these fresh forces show up on the Oskol front to counter the impending Russian offensive towards Kupyansk.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
Basically you are actually saying that no matter what Russia does we should all bow down in fear of nuclear war and allow them to do what they please whenever they please?
I wonder how the average Muscovite feels about a trident missile or 12 (12 8s the regular patrol load these days unless we have put all 16 back in the tubes since this crisis started), with 4 to 14 warheads each, arriving in the motherland? And that would just be the UK response, France might want to have a word as well.
I think the key difference is that the average muscovite won't get a say in it, and Russian leadership may be callous enough to proceed despite this. Whereas in a liberal democracy the government is at least in theory beholden to the public, hence the significance of the position. If the other guy wants to play chicken, you could play too. Or you could not.
In many ways the whole point of a nuclear deterrent is indeed to play chicken, the whole idea of MAD is a game of chicken and all sides must be committed to launch in response or it just doesn't work.
What a XXXXX stupid world we live in eh?
@Redshift No need for the obscene language. Don't do it again.
Ngatimozart.
Last edited by a moderator:
So you believe that this is the UAV that the Russians hit the UKR airfield with? That would make sense if it is so.
UKR update. Usual caveats apply.
UKR claim of launching large UAV strike against Crimea.
Denmark is providing a further 45 Leopards to Ukraine.
The UKR govt has fired all of its Deputy Defence Ministers.
Yeah. East Prussian history is quite entertaining. A territory ruled by a mainly German religio-military order which became nominally subject to Poland but retained its own government, then became Protestant at the Reformation & converted to a duchy, with the Grand Master of the order as hereditary duke. Inherited by the Electors of Brandenburg, which was within the Holy Roman Empire, but stayed outside the empire. Became officially independent from Poland, then the rulers found a formula to become kings "in Prussia". But not in all their lands, because there couldn't be a new kingdom within the HRE. So although in reality they merged their lands into one state in the 18th century, technically only Prussia, outside the HRE, was the kingdom & Brandenburg (where their capital was) was distinct. The emperor went along with it to get the elector's backing in his latest war. Started calling themselves Kings of Prussia later, & all their lands the Kingdom of Prussia after the dissolution of the HRE. So after 1806 "Prussia" was a German kingdom named for an extinct non-German people who'd lived in its most remote region, which was officially not part of Germany, & when the German Confederation was formed in 1815 the Kingdom of Prussia became a member - except for the provinces called West Prussia (in the east of the kingdom) & East Prussia (in the far east of the kingdom).
And that's the simplified version.
And from 1848, as you say.
Yeah. East Prussian history is quite entertaining. A territory ruled by a mainly German religio-military order which became nominally subject to Poland but retained its own government, then became Protestant at the Reformation & converted to a duchy, with the Grand Master of the order as hereditary duke. Inherited by the Electors of Brandenburg, which was within the Holy Roman Empire, but stayed outside the empire. Became officially independent from Poland, then the rulers found a formula to become kings "in Prussia". But not in all their lands, because there couldn't be a new kingdom with the HRE. So although in reality they merged their lands into one state in the 18th century, technically only Prussia, outside the HRE, was the kingdom & Brandenburg (where their capital was) was distinct. The emperor went along with it to get the elector's backing in his latest war. Started calling themselves Kings of Prussia later, & all their lands the Kingdom of Prussia after the dissolution of the HRE. So after 1806 "Prussia" was a German kingdom named for an extinct non-German people who'd lived in its most remote region, which was officially not part of Germany, & when the German Confederation was formed in 1815 the Kingdom of Prussia became a member - except for the provinces called West Prussia (in the east of the kingdom) & East Prussia (in the far east of the kingdom).
And that's the simplified version.
And from 1848, as you say.
And of course these non-Germans, non-Imperials, became the symbol of German Imperialism, so-much-so that post-WWII Prussia has been dissolved, in order to combat "German militarism". It's almost as comical as the quintessential German knight order being named after a tribe of Balts that got exterminated by the Romans nearly a millennium prior.
KipPotapych
Well-Known Member
While that may be, this wouldn’t make a a lot of sense. I would think that Poland of all places has likely the strongest support on providing assistance to Ukraine (partially due to the very party in power raising the stakes and expectations from the populace).
Edit: This is my opinion only. And I’ll have to come back to this once I do some reading. Seems like a bit of a political blunder, frankly. But who knows.
I apologise, I won't.
Their original name is Ordo fratrum domus hospitalis Sanctae Mariae Teutonicorum Ierosolimitanorum (in medieval Church Latin), the "Order of the Brothers of the German Hospital of Saint Mary at Jerusalem" - shortened to Ordo Teutonicus ("German Order") at the time. Their German name is just Deutscher Orden ("German Order").