The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Bob53

Well-Known Member
So what? That's no reason to refuse to provide the F-16 to Ukraine. F-16s have a far better chance of evading the S300 SAM than the current Ukrainian Mig-29s and Su-27s. The Ukrainians need to be able to dispute the control of the air over the battlefield and defend its own airspace. An IADS comprising both combat aircraft and GBAD is the only reasonable and practical option. If Ukraine cannot compete in the air it will lose the war.
This article argues why Western AirPower is needed. i Hope the Dutch F16s get through and that becomes the leading edge of further Western aircraft to Ukraine. I just hope things happen too late to make a difference. Don’t want to lose Ukraine? Empower Kyiv with airpower - Breaking Defense
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Do you think th west will want to put the F16 to test in this war?
The West isn't a monolithic block with a single will. Even a single nation is a mess of competing interests. Especially since many nations are democracies where the leaders still have to convince the senate/congress/equivalent body to go along with his/her plan. So there isn't a real answer to your (rhetorical) question. There will be some high-ranking people who thinks that they should let Ukraine has F-16 and use them in this war and there will be high-ranking people who thinks otherwise and it's too early to tell which group will be more successful.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
So what? That's no reason to refuse to provide the F-16 to Ukraine. F-16s have a far better chance of evading the S300 SAM than the current Ukrainian Mig-29s and Su-27s.
How do you figure and what F-16 variant did you have in mind? To be clear, it's not impossible to operate F-16s in Ukraine. It's also not impossible to operate MiG-29s and Su-27s. They're currently doing so.

The Ukrainians need to be able to dispute the control of the air over the battlefield and defend its own airspace. An IADS comprising both combat aircraft and GBAD is the only reasonable and practical option. If Ukraine cannot compete in the air it will lose the war.
I suspect a dense GBAD grid would dispute control of the air over the battlefield just fine. Remember Russia hasn't managed to wipe out Ukraine's air defenses up until now. This is what led to Russian jets hugging the ground and lobbing unguided missiles. Until the recent advent of gliding munitions, Russian airpower was largely negated. But I also once again wonder, what are we talking about here? Brand new top of the line F-16s? That's very expensive. What about AEW?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ugledar update.

After the recent Russian failures there it appears Ukraine attempted a counter-attack. There were two smaller probing attacks, a recce by force, and then a bigger push involving MBTs. The attack was repulsed, and so far we have some helicopter footage allegedly showing a Ka-52 taking out 3 Ukrainian tanks. Interestingly enough the pilots reports spotting 4 tanks and 3 IFVs at one point. These kinds of probing attacks have been the norm for Ukrainian forces and we are likely to see more of them as they test various sections of the front line. Some of them are no doubt meant to obfuscate the real eventual targets of Ukraine's offensive. Others likely meant to test Russian defenses and reaction to attacks.

 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
So what? That's no reason to refuse to provide the F-16 to Ukraine. F-16s have a far better chance of evading the S300 SAM than the current Ukrainian Mig-29s and Su-27s. The Ukrainians need to be able to dispute the control of the air over the battlefield and defend its own airspace. An IADS comprising both combat aircraft and GBAD is the only reasonable and practical option. If Ukraine cannot compete in the air it will lose the war.
Is a handful of F-16 going to be able to make a difference in an area awash in AA ? Sure, if you had enough, and had enough pilots trained in SEAD, you might make a difference. I have nothing against sending or training pilots for them, but right now, I suspect UKR needs more air defenses.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update. Mar. 5th-6th

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Russian quadcopter munition drops on a boat used by Ukrainian forces, Kherson region.


Russian Eleron-7 UAV team operating in Kherson region.


Ukrainian mobilization efforts in Odessa.


Oskol Front.

Russian mortar strikes against Ukrainian infantry in the woods of Kremennaya.


Russian artillery fires in the woods near Kremennaya.


Ukrainian pickup truck getting hit near Kremennaya.


Russian Shahed strikes landing in Kharkov.


Ukrainian Furiya UAV allegedly downed near Svatovo-Kremennaya.


Russian T-90M and BMP-3M near Svatovo. Nakidka on the turret but none on the hull. A questionable choice considering the engine is the largest heat source.


LDNR Front.

Allegedly Ukrainian forces shooting up a residential building with civilians in it. It's hard to tell what they're firing on here though. Location is the western outskirts of Artemovsk/Bakhmut. If the geo-location is correct, this isn't on the front lines with Russian forces.


Ukrainian infantry, 28th Mech Bde, with the UAR-10 rifle, near Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Russian airstrikes against targets in Avdeevka continue. The increase in strikes suggests that this is a priority axis for Russian forces to complete the taking of Avdeevka.


T-90M and BTR-82As operating in the ruins of Mar'inka.


Russia is continuing to strike the Yuzhnodonbasskaya-1 mine facilities east-north-east of Ugledar.


Russian mortar fires on an alleged Ukrainian strong point near Ugledar.


Russian Ka-52 downed near Ugledar.


Russian SpN retrieval team that got the downed pilots from the Su-34 the day prior.


A fragment of the rare Ukrainian Smerch variant, the Ol'kha, Donetsk region.


Russia.

Ukrainian Kraken fighters using an FPV drone to strike an FSB border camera post in Bryansk region.


Russian Pantsyr deployed to the piers in Tuapse, likely in response to recent strikes there.


Misc.


Ukrainian forces taking Ukrainian POWs allegedly after an exchange of grenade tosses. Location and context unclear.


Ukraine's rare M-240 mortar getting hit by a loitering munition.


Ukrainian FPV drone hitting a Russian MBT in the rear of the turret. Results are unclear as the camera cuts out.


Russian ATGM launch allegedly taking out a Ukrainian tank. They hit something, based on the explosion, but I can't make out what.


Russian ASVK anti-material rifle fires, location, context, and date unclear.


Various destroyed Humvees, location and contexts unclear.


Russian forces using the high-caliber OSV-96 anti-material rifle.


Russian T-90Ms with ERA being mounted on their ERA.


A modified Ukrainian Maxim gun intended to make it easier to fire without it's wheeled carriage.


Ukraine's 18th Aviation Bde operating Mi-24s, location unclear.


NATO/EU.


Ukrainian forces training on AS-90s in the UK.


Ukrainian service members training with Paladins and Strykers.


Apparently two Ukrainian pilots are undergoing evaluation training on F-16s in the US. This is likely a prelude to the eventual and in my opinion inevitable supply of F-16s to Ukraine.


A rare Spanish Oto Melara Mod 56 in Ukrainian service, a 105mm howitzer.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How do you figure and what F-16 variant did you have in mind? To be clear, it's not impossible to operate F-16s in Ukraine. It's also not impossible to operate MiG-29s and Su-27s. They're currently doing so.
The RNAF (Netherlands), RDAF (Denmark), RNoAF (Norway), &, USAF, along with the Bahraini AF operate(d) the A & B models which they pt through the MLU program. Amongst upgrades they received:
"The Westinghouse AN/APG-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) which... include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions."
"An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems." And HMD, MFD, etc.​

I think that the F-16s that went through th MLU would be quite capable in Ukraine, more so than the MIG-29 & SU-27. In the short term I would think that any F-16s that Ukraine received would come from the RNAF, RDAF, and RNoAF, all of whom are replacing their F-16s with the F-35. In the longer term new build F-16V Block 70 would be on the cards. I actually think that eventually a F-15EX / F-16V combination would be ideal for Ukraine.
I suspect a dense GBAD grid would dispute control of the air over the battlefield just fine. Remember Russia hasn't managed to wipe out Ukraine's air defenses up until now. This is what led to Russian jets hugging the ground and lobbing unguided missiles. Until the recent advent of gliding munitions, Russian airpower was largely negated. But I also once again wonder, what are we talking about here? Brand new top of the line F-16s? That's very expensive. What about AEW?
AEW&C is important and the Ukrainians will have to acquire it at some stage. The E-7A Wedgetail would be the best choice but it's expensive so they may have to opt for something like the SAAB AEW system. AAR is another capability that they would require as well. However at present the most urgent requirement is for the F-16s.
Is a handful of F-16 going to be able to make a difference in an area awash in AA ? Sure, if you had enough, and had enough pilots trained in SEAD, you might make a difference. I have nothing against sending or training pilots for them, but right now, I suspect UKR needs more air defenses.
AAA only has so much reach, although SAM are another story. The Ukrainian aircrew only need to be taught how to fly the F-16. They already are accomplished aircrew with combat experience against a near peer enemy. NATO cannot provide instructors with such experience because the wars that they have fought since 1991 have never been against a near peer enemy. Even Iraq's air defence capability in 2003 was quite degraded when compared to its 1991 IADS which was the most advanced in the world at the time.

With today's modern weapons a F-16 driver doesn't need to get down in the dirt to provide CAS. That can be provided with stand off weapons. That's how it was done in Afghanistan and the USAF even used the B-52H for such a role. It also used B-1Bs as well. They only USAF aircraft to get down low and dirty was the A-10 Warthog and it could handle the enemy small arms fire. However the A-10 wouldn't survive to well on the modern battlefield in Ukraine with the preponderance of MANPADS.
Thank you for the answer, follow up question.

if we keep in mind that in this hypothetical scenario, the F-16s find a gap in Russian GBAD and evades the Mig-31s with R-37s and go head to head with Russian fightert does it come down to who fires the AIM-120 vs who fires the R-77 first? Also does the f-16 onboard radar available on upgraded pre Block 40 planes outrange the VKS fighter's onboard radars?
No probs. See what I have written in reply to Feanor at the beginning of this post. A point to note is that IAF (Israel) F-16s have generally outperformed any opposition using Russian equipment, that they have encountered. Part of it is the capabilities of the F-16 itself but a large part would be the training and skills of the aircrew coupled with IAF strategy and tactics. One real failing of the Russian system is their institutionalised control freak system. Their aircrew have nowhere near the flexibility of western aircrew. In a situation where instant decisions are required, the Russian fallback is to seek orders from higher up the food chain.

This is the video that I referred to in an earlier post and said that I would look for.

Of note at one stage it is mentioned that after German unification and the Luftwaffe took the MIG-29s over, there was a high failure rate of former DDR MIG-29 pilots because despite their former MIG-29 service with the DDR, they couldn't meet NATO flying standards. The DDR aviation forces wasn't comprised of idiots but it appears that their quality was nowhere near that of the NATO aircrew. I would suspect that the DDR aircrew quality would've have been better than their Soviet compatriots because the DDR military had many former Wehrmacht officers in charge during its formative years and they carried Prussian, Imperial German and Wehrmacht training. culture, and traditions through into the DDR military.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
AEW&C is important and the Ukrainians will have to acquire it at some stage. The E-7A Wedgetail would be the best choice but it's expensive so they may have to opt for something like the SAAB AEW system. ...
E-7 isn't only expensive but AFAIK it can't be built quickly. There's a waiting list for the platforms, & integration onto a new platform would probably take a long time.

Erieye can go on smaller platforms & there are some SAAB 2000s in storage. There are also some oldish Erieye systems flying which might be available for trade ins for new ER sets, if the owners can accept a gap. I don't think any E-7s are even potentially spare. It's possible there might even be a spare Erieye set hanging around.

So, potentially (not necessarily in reality, I know) there could be a couple of Erieyes available much sooner than any E-7. Slower, lower platform which'd reduce performance, but much better than nothing.

And maybe the Israelis could provde something relatively soon.

Oh, & any spare E-2s?

There are also some other radars which could provide limited AEW & could be fitted to existing platforms quite quickly. How long did the original Sea King AEW take? Ah yes - 11 weeks from start of work to flying & available for emergency use.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
The first issue with getting E7 is the airframes. They were built on 737-NGs not MAX. Boeing downgraded production of the 737-NG versions when it launched the Max. Though they are still building NGs it’s primarily as corporate jets and special mission aircraft and has a long lead time. That why the USAF isn’t expecting E7 until 2027. it will take 2-3 years before Boeing has an opening and then another year to rebuild to Wedgetail. The British birds are being built from used airframes with still a year of work before delivery.
if it’s a donation then it’s E2. If you want longer term then you could get a newer model but Wedgetail is a hard if not impossible choice.
Globaleye, R99, Gulfstream CAEW maybe Embraer’s P600 concept.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There has been a claim that Ukraine is starting its counteroffensive. It appears that they are preparing the battlefield for their offensive.

 

swerve

Super Moderator
The first issue with getting E7 is the airframes. They were built on 737-NGs not MAX. Boeing downgraded production of the 737-NG versions when it launched the Max. Though they are still building NGs it’s primarily as corporate jets and special mission aircraft and has a long lead time. That why the USAF isn’t expecting E7 until 2027. it will take 2-3 years before Boeing has an opening and then another year to rebuild to Wedgetail. The British birds are being built from used airframes with still a year of work before delivery.
if it’s a donation then it’s E2. If you want longer term then you could get a newer model but Wedgetail is a hard if not impossible choice.
Globaleye, R99, Gulfstream CAEW maybe Embraer’s P600 concept.
Globaleye & Gulfstream/IAI CAEW are the upper tier of bizjet/prop AEW aircraft. The older Erieye systems are built on smaller, slower, lower ceiling platforms, & unless upgraded to Erieye ER have a lower performance radar. The Embraer P600 is another relatively small platform, & the radar's smaller & perhaps lower performance than that on CAEW.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Globaleye & Gulfstream/IAI CAEW are the upper tier of bizjet/prop AEW aircraft. The older Erieye systems are built on smaller, slower, lower ceiling platforms, & unless upgraded to Erieye ER have a lower performance radar. The Embraer P600 is another relatively small platform, & the radar's smaller & perhaps lower performance than that on CAEW.
That’s kinda the point, isn’t it?
I mean E7 is an Exquisite AEW platform an upgrade over the E3 it will replace for USAF and RAF but not a realistic option for the UAF. Lead time is a killer and you would be hard pressed to convince any of the existing users to part with them. If anything they want more of them already.
CAEW is top of the line and a few units are in NATO states Italy and the USN if that was deemed necessary it might require paying for replacements down the line. Lead time on new will be a while but as the USAF is using it as the basis of the compass call II not too long, a few years.
Erieye based like Globaleye, SAAB AEW or Embraer R99 then come in. The R99 has a number of units in Greece that could be transferred if they were Amenable. Otherwise it’s starting conversations using either new airframes to Globaleye or older sets and airframes. Either way atleast a year’s conversion then training cycle. unless you can get Sweden to transfer its existing units still likely atleast a year until the gap is filled followed by months of training. With Sweden being on the Russian border you don’t want to take any thing away from them.

Which leads me to P600. If your looking at atleast a year plus of work might as well look at an option that doesn’t create a gap. The whole concept is basically written for this situation. A lower end less security risk. Still it’s not a solution without issues. None exist to date, it’s an emerging capability set. Though smaller and lower end that might just be the Goldilocks call.

So isn’t that the Point? If you absolutely had to get Ukraine an AEW capability inside a year then the answer is E2C Hawkeye.
Yet compared to E7, Globaleye, CAEW that’s a substantially lower end capability. Basically if you want to give perfect solutions to Ukrainian military capability gaps the only way to do so would require a Time Machine. As is it’s make mend and look at what’s available or could be made available inside of windows.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update. Mar. 6th-8th

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Russian T-62 fires against an island on the Dnepr. Russian and Ukrainian forces have been fighting over these islands.


Ukrainian security forces have arrested the former commander of Ukraine's 73rd Naval Special Warfare center. He is allegedly a Russian agent.


Ukrainian mobilization efforts in Odessa.


Zaporozhye-Dnepropetrovsk.

Russian airstrikes against Malinovka, Zaporozhye region.


Russian strikes allegedly against a Ukrainian strongpoint in Zaporozhye region. Note it's very strange footage. Those are very large explosions. I'm really wondering what munitions those are.


Russian ATGM launch allegedly against a Ukrainian camera post.


Russian defenses getting built in Zaporozhye area.


Russian Uragan operations, Zaporozhye area.


LDNR Front.

Russian artillery fires in Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Near impacts of Russian artillery next to Ukrainian 93rd Mech Bde infantry, Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Allegedly a Ukrainian BMP-2 maneuvering between houses to avoid the road while retreating, Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Panorama of the battle damage in Artemovsk/Bakhmut. Fires burn, the ruins stand dark.


Russian footage on the outskirts of Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Ukrainian vehicle near Artemovsk/Bakhmut got hit, destroying the cargo of RPGs in the back, but apparently leaving the vehicle and occupants in tact.


More footage from the roads into Artemovsk/Bakhmut with destroyed Ukrainian vehicles littering the area.


Russian air strikes, Avdeevka. The third and fourth links have unexploded ordinance in them, and it's a regular unguided bomb. Note not a gliding bomb. This suggests Ukrainian air defenses are well away from the area. Note the 7th link explicitly claims the strikes are using unguided bombs, not sure how they know.


Ukrainian M109 near Ugledar or West of Donetsk getting hit.


Ugledar area, Russian 36th MarBde Recon assaulting a Ukrainian position at night.


More helmet cam footage from Russian Marines in the Ugledar cottages.


Ukrainian infantry ATGM position near Ugledar, getting hit.


Russian 3rd SpN taking out allegedly a Ukrainian munition storage position near Makeevka. Note it's unclear whether this refers to the Makeevka near Donetsk, or the Makeevka in Lugansk region


DNR area, Russian airstrike allegedly against a Ukrainian staging area.


For DNR 3rd MRBde, now 132nd MRBde 2S1 fires against Ukrainian infantry.


Shelling of Donetsk continues.


Russia.

Allegedly a Ukrainian Tochka strike in Noviy Oskol, Belgorod region.


Russian T-72Bs without K-1 era getting pulled from storage. In principle a logical step but suggests that the T-72 stockpile is so far from exhausted that even T-72Bs are still available to pull. Of course it also shows the poor state of Russian repair plants. Upgrading these with ERA shouldn't be that hard. And T-62s are getting thermals, but these aren't?


Misc.

Ukrainian FPV drone hits a Russian TOS-1 either in mid-fires, or right after firing (unclear if volley is completed). If the former, the ammo is likely to cook off.


Ukrainian M777 destroyed by Grad fires, it appears the gun crew bails out, abandoned the howitzer.


Allegedly 2 Ukrainian M109s getting hit by a loitering munition. Location unclear.


Apparently Russian forces have begun using tank riders, possibly due to a lack of BMPs.


Russian VDV assaulting a building. Location and context unclear. Allegedly combat footage but there's no sign of the enemy.


Ukrainian S-300 TEL allegedly destroyed by a Russian loitering munition. Location, date, and context unclear.


A destroyed Ukrainian Maxx Pro, location and context unclear.


A destroyed Ukrainian Kipri MRAP, location and context unclear.


Russian up-armored Ural. According to the video, the anti-UAV nets can be mounted in ~20 minutes.


Russian service members returning from Ukrainian captivity as part of the latest POW exchange.


A rare Russian Tunguska in Ukraine.


Ukrainian technical with twin Maxim guns.


NATO/EU.

Reportedly Ukraine got its first Patriots.


Ukrainian servicemembers training in the UK.


French MI AC HPD F2 anti-tank mines have shown up in Ukraine.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Globaleye & Gulfstream/IAI CAEW are the upper tier of bizjet/prop AEW aircraft. The older Erieye systems are built on smaller, slower, lower ceiling platforms, & unless upgraded to Erieye ER have a lower performance radar. The Embraer P600 is another relatively small platform, & the radar's smaller & perhaps lower performance than that on CAEW.
There is also the IAI ELTA ELW 2085 CAEW system as well, if the Israelis were willing for it to be exported to Ukraine.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In regards to Ukraine seeking to acquire western fighters I came across this article suggesting the R.A.A.F Hornets that are no longer used are in storage and are in good condition but if the U.S doesn't want them may be destroyed, under licence agreement this aircraft can only be sold or given with U.S approval
Australia's Mothballed F/A-18 Hornets Should Be Given To Ukraine (thedrive.com)
The US, especially, is hesitant to release US combat aircraft for Ukraine's use. The UK, French and Germans are the others, all claiming that they don't want to escalate the war. The Russians are the ones who have escalated the war by their threats to use nuclear weapons, and the US, UK, France, and Germany are buying into what is Russian blackmail. By not supplying F-16s to Ukraine they are forcing Ukraine to fight with one hand tied behind its back. The question is do the US, UK, France, and Germany actually want Ukraine to win, successfully recovering its territory illegally occupied by Russia? They are letting the Russians win if they continue to buy into the Russian blackmail.

Some people will say "Oh but the risk of nukes going off is to high". Russian has threatened nuclear retribution for so long it's like a stuck record. The US, UK, and France should just tell the Russians that if they set off one nuke, no matter how big or small, then retaliation will be very swift and very severe and the warning should be a very public one. Russia's a bully and the only way to sort a bully out is stand up to it and fight. Will Xi Jinping still stand by Russia if it uses a nuke. A warning to Russia, as suggested, may cause him to rethink his options because he doesn't have a large nuclear weapons stock. This couldn't be done to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during the 1930s because nukes weren't available then, but that showed that any weakness by the democracies was seized upon by the fascists and utilised to the full extent. Look what happened; 25 - 40 million killed.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
A couple of articles going into the falling prison populations in Russia ,its unlikely there will be official statements the use of the prison population and the losses of life
17,000 Inmates Have Disappeared From Russian Prisons, Likely Joined Ukraine War: Report (ibtimes.com)
Russian prison population sees largest drop in more than a decade as Wagner PMC recruits convicts en masse — Meduza
This New York Times article suggests the choices for prisoners are between a quick or slow death from H.I.V with estimates of up to fifty thousand recruited from prisons for front line combat
‘A Quick Death or a Slow Death’: Prisoners Choose War to Get Lifesaving Drugs - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
 
A warning to Russia, as suggested, may cause him to rethink his options because he doesn't have a large nuclear weapons stock.
He has the largest nuclear weapons stock in the world. If that is not large, than I don’t know what you would consider as being large.

Except for that, I actually agree with your post.
 
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