The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Part 4 of 5: The clock is ticking

12. One of the two certainties of this war:

(a) The more Russia is defeated, the louder the chorus of voices grows advocating Ukraine negotiate the terms of its conditional surrender. Everyone from Elon Musk to Pope Francis has lately urged President Zelenskyy to enter into negotiations with Moscow. But the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians are against any ceasefire that entails giving their land to an invading force that they’re pushing farther back every day.​
(b) In military operations, one of the most important principles is that of unity of command. This means that all forces should operate under a single commander who has the authority to direct these forces. The Russians then attempted to fix this situation in April 2022 but most commanders put in by Putin will get replaced. The flaws in Russia’s battlefield performance are more deeply rooted than bad Russian C4, and the reasons for poor battlefield leadership more than I can cover in 10 posts.​
12. If Moscow were to use a single nuclear bomb, it would not stop an Ukrainian division — for Putin to stop an Ukrainian division, he would need to use 25 to 31 warheads.

(a) US Army doctrine in 1977 called for 136 tactical nuclear weapons to defeat an attack by 7 Soviet divisions, including 31 warheads to be used against the lead attacking divison, all delivered within 1-2 hours. You can kill a lot of civilians with a single nuclear weapon but a single bomb does not stop an army. A prior study of a India-Pakistan nuclear exchange scenario, a 5 kiloton tactical nuclear weapon would destroy just 13 tanks, if they were dispersed.​
(b) The purpose of using tactical nuclear weapons would be to try to terrify Ukraine and its backers into making concessions by raising the risk of Armageddon. Ukraine’s cause, however just, should not blind us to the appalling consequences of a nuclear war, even if the responsibility for starting such a war would inevitably lie with Putin.​

14. Russian literature on escalation management, boils down to: One, inflict pain. Two, promise more if the enemy does not submit, if they don't submit, inflict even more pain until they do. But Moscow’s generals cannot defeat the Ukrainian military in the field and therefore resort to terrorising Ukrainians civilians instead.

15. Russian fighting capability is being corroded by logistics complications. IMO, the fastest way to end this war is through a Ukrainian military victory or a negotiated settlement in which Kyiv has an even stronger hand (and on terms acceptable to Ukrainians).
(a) Some have suggested that Putin may have incentive for nuclear attack, as so much is on the line, it’s hard to just walk away. Meanwhile, Moscow will continue this war under Gen. Surovikin and try to improve its position.​
(b) Putin has addressed Russia's attacks on Ukrainian civilians & infrastructure. Putin’s flawed escalation ladder thinking is, as follows:​
  • Putin framed them (correctly or not) as punishment for Kerch & other alleged attacks
  • Putin promised future Russian strikes would be "harsh" & "correspond to the level of threat posed" by new attacks.
…the IRIS-T deliveries started. Four systems is not enough, Germany should at least double that.

The Ukraine support tracker has been updated with data until October 3: Ukraine Support Tracker | Kiel Institute (ifw-kiel.de)
16. The bottle neck is the training pipeline — it’s not just missiles or radars but the training pipeline size — in many Western countries, the military has shrunk so much, it’s pipeline is limited. It’s not easy for Ukraine to retain IADS personnel.

17. Ukrainian officials just are expecting nothing good from the combination of Putin and his new man in-charge of the war in Ukraine, Gen. Sergei Vladimirovich Surovikin. As a former commander of Russian Forces in Syria, Surovikin, is nicknamed ‘general armageddon’ — "and he certainly earned it in the air campaign in Syria." The Russian Air Force is not able to achieve air superiority in Ukraine.
(a) Gen. Surovikin is the 9th commander of Putin’s ‘Special Military Operations’, and is known as air force guy that was a butcher of civilians in Syria. Gen. Surovikin will have to prove himself to Putin either by holding onto some indefensible terrain in Kherson (across the Dnipro river), or attacking more civilian targets.​
(b) Butchers like Surovikin are not going to come up with a tactical aviation plan or air tasking order that help the Russian Army win the battle of Kherson in Ukraine — which is a ground battle that requires logistics; which by the way, the Russian Army does not have anymore, as their crossing points across the Dnipro river are being hit by Ukrainian artillery.​
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Russians operated small quantities of the UD variant. I believe they made their appearance during the Yeltsin coup..All are believed to be scrapped.
They reportedly used some of the turrets on other vehicles, producing the T-80UE.

15. The bottle neck is the training pipeline — it’s not just missiles or radars but the training pipeline size — in many Western countries, the military has shrunk so much, it’s pipeline is limited. It’s not easy for Ukraine to retain IADS personnel.
I've come across speculation that training took place pre-delivery and was part of the reason for the delay. I don't have any hard information, but it certainly wouldn't make sense to me to expose scarce and expensive hardware to the risk of Russian strikes if it's not ready to be used. You could safely park it across the border in Poland and get the training out of the way there.

What Ukrainian AD systems apart from the S-300; Buk and NASAMs have the ability to destroy cruise and ballistic missiles? Also does anyone know what the Russians have been using for the missile strikes apart from Kalibre and Kh-101?
Ukraine has been downing Russian missiles this entire conflict. The problem isn't whether you can down a missile. The problem is, can you effectively prevent the strikes from achieving their objective. So for example if you can down say ~25% of incoming missiles with less-than-ideal means that the enemy just needs to throw a few extra missiles at you to account for the downings, and possibly carry out follow-on strikes against locations where a disproportionate number of inbounds got intercepted. Consider Russia air defense around the Antonov bridge in Kherson. It downs some inbounds routinely. But that doesn't prevent Ukraine from hitting the bridge.

EDIT: Something strange is going on with Russia's mobilization effort. A Russian repair plant apparently is contracted to repair, upgrade, and put into service 800 T-62Ms over the next 3 years. The upgrade will apparently include modern NVGs, thermals, increased protection (likely literally just extra armor), "mounted defenses" (this likely refers to something along the lines of the ERA sideskirts seen on T-72B3mod'16s, T-80BVMs, and T-90Ms), missile defenses (APS?), and "rear grenade launcher protection" (in all likelihood we're talking about rear cage armor). Note this is the 103rd Armored Repair Plant in Chita (Russian Far East).

There's a buch of questions immediately. Russia hasn't tapped out it's T-72 fleet we know that. Where are the T-72As and T-72 Urals? Why the T-62 upgrades? The upgrades themselves are quite comprehensive. A T-72A would benefit considerably from such treatment, possibly bringing up close to the level of a T-72B3mod'16. 800 is a huge quantity but 3 years is a long time. I have questions about the feasibility of the timeline in general (though overly optimistic timelines are par the course for Russian defense procurement). However... do they plan to be at war for 3+ more years? We know in 2011 UVZ put out ~350 tanks in one year. Why not contract them for ~900+ regular T-90As (if T-90M production is slow) in the same timeframe? Have they already done so? This is one armored repair plant in Chita. What are the rest doing? I doubt they're sitting on their hands. So is Russia returning several thousand tanks into service to the point where the one in Chita is stuck with T-62Ms while others work on the T-72B/A/Urals, and T-80B/BVs?

To top it off T-14s were recently seen at a training ground, not a testing ground, likely operated by regular soldiers. There's a solid chance that the T-14 is being prepared for combat action. And this makes sense. At this point several dozen prototypes have been produced, the type has been undergoing state trials for a while. Combat testing is valuable in principle.

The situation with APCs and IFVs is increasingly murky. Other then the reactivation of BMP-1s from storage, and the new BRM-1AMs, things there seem to be quiet. We do see an increased focus on armored trucks for infantry transports, and presumably AMZ is still churning out BTR-82s and Tigrs in large quantities. However this level of mobilization would suggest a bigger effort. I suspect there's much we're not seeing.


EDIT2: A small bucket of footage from the plant. It appears to also be working on some T-80s, BREM-1s, and BRDM-2s (being upgraded to the 2MS standard).

 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
Ukraine has been downing Russian missiles this entire conflict.
Yes it has and hopefully when this unpleasant business is over we will get to know how many they actually shot down as opposed to how many they think they shot down or claimed they did. I would be very interested in also knowing how many Ukrainian SAM's malfunctioned and fell on civilian infrastructure.

It would also be interesting to really know if the reported in.some cases less than accurate strikes are a result of inherent issues with the missiles or deficiencies in targeting. Hard to say because at times the statements are contradictory. Take the Shaheds; we're often told that they're unsophisticated loitering munitions and that they can be dealt with but at times the Ukrainians acknowledge that they have been accurate.


The problem isn't whether you can down a missile. The problem is, can you effectively prevent the strikes from achieving their objective. So for example if you can down say ~25% of incoming missiles with less-than-ideal means that the enemy just needs to throw a few extra
Indeed but unless it's a small strike comprising a few missiles or the defender has a few networked AD systems in place; it's practically impossible to prevent a strike once it's been launched.

Also, even if one has shot down just 8 percent of an incoming missile strike it still means 8 percent of missiles that aren't going to cause any damage and 8 percent of missiles the other side expended without gaining anything.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian strikes continue but at a reduced pace (at least as far as I can tell). There is some issue with getting information due to power and internet outages, so the true magnitude may not be visible, but I suspect it's likelier that the scope and scale of the attacks is decreasing.

In Sumy region the are reports of power outages in Shostinsk and Sumy areas due to Shahed-136 strikes. There are also reports of follow-on strikes in Dnepropetrovsk, Kamenskoe area. Kiev is having some restrictions on power usage. Khmel'nitskoe has most of it's power out, some limitations on water usage. Ternopol' is experiencing some blackouts. Note these are just verbal reports, direct evidence is scant.


The Samsun office in Kiev apparently got hit by a Buk missile, rather then a Russian strike. This is based on the warhead elements found inside.


In L'vov reportedly 4 substations are out, and it could take months to fix all 4.


Ukrainian social media sources are reporting rolling blackouts.


Shahed 136s over Dnepropetrovsk.


Meanwhile a Russian floating crane has begun work on repairing the Crimean bridge.

 

Big Slick

New Member
Something strange is going on with Russia's mobilization effort. A Russian repair plant apparently is contracted to repair, upgrade, and put into service 800 T-62Ms over the next 3 years. The upgrade will apparently include modern NVGs, thermals, increased protection (likely literally just extra armor), "mounted defenses" (this likely
Perhaps the intent is to eventually transfer these tanks to troop formations in the occupied territories for post war use.
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
EDIT: Something strange is going on with Russia's mobilization effort. A Russian repair plant apparently is contracted to repair, upgrade, and put into service 800 T-62Ms over the next 3 years. The upgrade will apparently include modern NVGs, thermals, increased protection (likely literally just extra armor), "mounted defenses" (this likely refers to something along the lines of the ERA sideskirts seen on T-72B3mod'16s, T-80BVMs, and T-90Ms), missile defenses (APS?), and "rear grenade launcher protection" (in all likelihood we're talking about rear cage armor). Note this is the 103rd Armored Repair Plant in Chita (Russian Far East).
The entire thing must be a nightmare for the logistic officers in the field. T-62, T-72, 80 and 80 all needing their own parts. Sure, the last 3 probably have some interchangeability, but the T-62 is the odd man out. It needs its own ammo, too, and a 4th crewman.

How can you upgrade the T-62 so that it can power all the new devices ? I doubt it was designed with spare power generation in mind.

So why ? Why work on T-62 at all. Surely there is something better the factory can do with itself. Is this maybe a reflection of sanctions limiting the T-72+ series production and upgrades ? Have the RU tapped out the repairable T-72 from storage depots ?

Like you, I cant make sense of it.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Part 5 of 5: The clock is ticking

18. Anti-armour mines are usually need to be buried, so that armoured vehicle drivers cannot see them. If they are just placed on a road in broad day light and the driver runs into the mine, the driver is an idiot or drunk.

19. Is being drunk part of driver training? A Russian armoured vehicle driver unintentionally driving over another Russian in a parade. That’s a new level of Russian toughness at training that I have not seen before — getting seriously injured or even dying while on parade.

20. Chinese state media is often viewed as unreliable in terms of journalism credibility, stealing video material from a Canadian, and altering it into a completely different story in order to push Putin’s blatant lies against Ukraine is a new low. Below is an example of Chinese state media is still helping Russia’s disinformation tactics.
(a) Lu Yuguang, a Chinese journalist at Phoenix Television, posted a short video on his account on Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok. In the 1:17 long video, Lu showcased what he claimed are Russian troops’ achievements in Lyman, Ukraine, where a crucial battle was taking place from late Sep and early Oct 2022. Lu’s original video has been deleted.​
(b) From 00:35 to 00:49 of the video, Lu showed the “debris” of a Ukraine-operated HIMARS destroyed by the Russian army, including close-up scenes of burned components of electronic-like devices. But, Lu’s big scoop didn’t look credible, especially when viewers found the characters of “MADE IN CHINA” printed on one of the burned components (0:42).​
(c) By comparing frame by frame, people were convinced that a 15-second part of Lu’s HIMARS video, was actually lifted from Carter’s video clip “Burnt Corvette! ” The video was posted online on Sep 22, 2022. Lu’s so-called destroyed HIMARS component is actually a burnt and melted radio that came out of Carter’s 1978 Chevy Corvette.​
(d) Phoenix TV is a partially government-owned network that provides programs in Chinese Mandarin and Cantonese in mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and other countries. Lu Yuguang, as Phoenix TV’s correspondent in Moscow, has caused controversies quite a few times since the beginning of the Ukrainian war.​
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The entire thing must be a nightmare for the logistic officers in the field. T-62, T-72, 80 and 80 all needing their own parts. Sure, the last 3 probably have some interchangeability, but the T-62 is the odd man out. It needs its own ammo, too, and a 4th crewman.

How can you upgrade the T-62 so that it can power all the new devices ? I doubt it was designed with spare power generation in mind.

So why ? Why work on T-62 at all. Surely there is something better the factory can do with itself. Is this maybe a reflection of sanctions limiting the T-72+ series production and upgrades ? Have the RU tapped out the repairable T-72 from storage depots ?

Like you, I cant make sense of it.
That can't be it. Russia produces the T-90 domestically. They can restart T-72B production if they wanted it and that's much harder then overhauling some T-72As and putting them back into service. Russia also had T-72AVs in service in Tadjikistan until 2021, and in the 90th TD during this war. This is a tiny quantity (~300-400 total) but we know some were in service. We know thousands were produced. Maybe Russia can't return thousands to service, but some quantity should be very doable. Russia still has T-72Bs in storage, and has pulled some during this war. And both the quantities and timelines are very strange. Pulling a few T-62Ms in a hurry to rush to the front line for irregulars and LDNR reservists? Sure, makes sense. Category 1 storage easy to pull and the war was going badly. But hundreds over the course of years with major upgrades? It's very strange.

Perhaps the intent is to eventually transfer these tanks to troop formations in the occupied territories for post war use.
800 of them? A tank btln in every town of over 50k people? Why?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
800 of them? A tank btln in every town of over 50k people? Why?
Could it be for somekind of Militia conscript from citizen of occupied teritories ? They are mostly Russian ethnics anyway. Thus perhaps some thinking on putting them as secondary buffer forces? Militia from local citizen loyal ethnic Russian on 'New Russia' can sell internal propaganda wise. Even propaganda to non western audiences.

I do agree tough it is preferable and more make sense to upgrade those T-72 in the inventories.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Israel reportedly provides satellite imagery to Ukraine, in addition to previous reports of intel sharing and non-lethal aid.
  • Israel operates both military and civilian satellites with a wide range of capabilities including high resolution wide area imagery.
  • The service is reportedly used to track Russian military positions.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Could it be for somekind of Militia conscript from citizen of occupied teritories ? They are mostly Russian ethnics anyway. Thus perhaps some thinking on putting them as secondary buffer forces? Militia from local citizen loyal ethnic Russian on 'New Russia' can sell internal propaganda wise. Even propaganda to non western audiences.

I do agree tough it is preferable and more make sense to upgrade those T-72 in the inventories.
Don't confuse language with ethnicity. The current president of Ukraine grew up speaking Russian (I'm told he now speaks good Ukrainian, but he still speaks Russian better), but doesn't consider himself Russian, & that's true of many people in Ukraine.

In 2001, for example, 45% of the inhabitants of Kherson oblast said their first language was Russian, but only 20% said they were ethnic Russian. Maybe 50-60% first language Russian speakers called themselves Russian 10 years ago. Outside Crimea & the parts of Donetsk & Luhansk which have been Russian-run since 2014, that's probably fallen.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
confuse language with ethnicity
I'm not confusing that. Eventough in East they are mostly voting for Yanukovitch and East is the constituances base for Pro Russian political parties that mostly make Zelensky opposition. How many are them that really Ethnic Russian or Russian speaking Ethnic Ukrainia, well it is debateable.

Before the war even western academia sources call up to 12 mio ethnic Russian mostly in east. Census wise that make more than half East Ukranian population.

However my point toward my post to Feanor mostly talk on Russian using those T-62 as part to build up local militias in Russian control area. Showing that and package that as Pro Russian/Ethnic Russian militia supporting mother Russia, perhaps make same justifiable calculation in Moscow.

Whether they are really keen to fight for Russia, again it is debateable. After all Western sources now even put doubts on how many real ukranian born ethnic russian that make up Donbas militia. Perhaps the truth are in the middle between Western/Ukraine Propaganda and Russian Propaganda.

Russian target audiences for their propaganda is not in collective west anyway. It is either internal russian audiences plus some non western audiences (that already distrust any western claim). Any western audiences that can be sold by their propaganda, I believe at this point being considered as 'plus' point from Moscow propaganda machine.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The current wave of strikes is continuing. It appears Ukrainian aircraft made a major effort to intercept inbounds and took losses as a result. From the footage of missiles flying and reports of impacts, the strikes are continuing. It's possible that the interruptions of power and internet are leading to fewer images of impacts.

A Ukrainian MiG-29 (I think) attempting to intercept an inbound.


We have apparently 1 downed MiG-29 that reportedly interpceted a Shahed-136 but got too close and the exploding loitering munition damaged the jet. The jet in question belongs to the Ukrainian Falcons team.


Ukrainian jet, type unknown, went down near Poltava. Some sources indicate it might be a Su-24MR. There are unconfirmed reports of a second Ukrainian plane going down near Poltava but no substantiation.


Cruise missiles over Ternopol' region.


Cruise missile over Chernovtsi.


Cruise missiles over Vinnitsa, Kiev, L'vov, and Chernovtsi regions. Explosions are reported in Ternopol', L'vov, Volyn, and Rovno regions. Reportedly one of the targets was a piece of military infrastructure in L'vov region.


Cruise missiles over Odessa.


Allegedly a Ukrainian SAM fell on a house in Nikolaev. No confirmation.


Reportedly a failed Ukrainian S-300 launch. Location unclear.


Attempts to down Russian munitions over Kiev.


Impacts in Kiev and Belaya Tserkov' are reported.


A different type of loitering munition but similar to the Shahed-136 was used against targets in Kiev. Possibly this is Shahed-131/"Geran'-1".


Footage of damage of TES-5, 6, and the Samsung office in Kiev.


Russian A-50 sighted over Crimea.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Minor update. It appears Russia has begun a counter-push on the Oskol front, retaking a couple of villages. It's possible Ukrainian forces optimistically overextended and are being forced back. Note, no major developments so far. Russian forces are also continuing the push on Artemovsk/Bakhmut, with the taking of Ivangrad (a tiny hamlet next to Opytnoe and practically a suburub of Artemovsk/Bakhmut). Opytnoe itself has been under heavy fires lately, and might be next to fall. Please bear in mind this is all a hurrican in a teacup compared to the fights in Balakleya-Izyum, and nothern Kherson region.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
regarding the Mig-29 downing. Many are claiming its the same mig-29 which was on video trying to intercept the Shahed. UKR first mentioned that the pilot lost control due to technical malfuntion, but if it got damaged from shrapnel from the drone, then how close did it have to be while trying to intercept.

The Shaheds arent fast and have no countermeasures, does the interceptor jet have to fly that close to get a hit? I know its very small, but R-27s should be capable of downing them from a safe enough distance no?
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
That can't be it. Russia produces the T-90 domestically. They can restart T-72B production if they wanted it and that's much harder then overhauling some T-72As and putting them back into service. Russia also had T-72AVs in service in Tadjikistan until 2021, and in the 90th TD during this war. This is a tiny quantity (~300-400 total) but we know some were in service. We know thousands were produced. Maybe Russia can't return thousands to service, but some quantity should be very doable. Russia still has T-72Bs in storage, and has pulled some during this war. And both the quantities and timelines are very strange.
Is there a good over view of the RU industrial capabilities on tank production and renovation ? I will review some Covert Cabal videos on the subject, and there have been press releases recent on RU contracts for tank renovation.

At the end of the day, you have to spend time and effort and $$$ to renovate a T-62 that has no place outside of a training facility.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Minor update. It appears Russia has begun a counter-push on the Oskol front, retaking a couple of villages. It's possible Ukrainian forces optimistically overextended and are being forced back. Note, no major developments so far. Russian forces are also continuing the push on Artemovsk/Bakhmut, with the taking of Ivangrad (a tiny hamlet next to Opytnoe and practically a suburub of Artemovsk/Bakhmut). Opytnoe itself has been under heavy fires lately, and might be next to fall. Please bear in mind this is all a hurrican in a teacup compared to the fights in Balakleya-Izyum, and nothern Kherson region.
How long have they been trying to take Artemovsk/Bakhmut? A few months, isn't it?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
How long have they been trying to take Artemovsk/Bakhmut? A few months, isn't it?
Maybe 1-2 months? Something to that extent. The front line there is mostly static. Russia appears to be taking 1 village/hamelt per week or so. With easily a dozen of them around this not too large town, it could take 3 months to take, if it falls at all. I know slow and steady wins the race, but good god.

Is there a good over view of the RU industrial capabilities on tank production and renovation ? I will review some Covert Cabal videos on the subject, and there have been press releases recent on RU contracts for tank renovation.

At the end of the day, you have to spend time and effort and $$$ to renovate a T-62 that has no place outside of a training facility.
Russia has multiple armored repair plants capable of overhauling MBTs. There's at least 1 MBT overhaul plant per MD. I'm not aware of a single source overview of them, though it's plausible one exists.
 

Beam

Member
Is there a good over view of the RU industrial capabilities on tank production and renovation ? I will review some Covert Cabal videos on the subject, and there have been press releases recent on RU contracts for tank renovation.

At the end of the day, you have to spend time and effort and $$$ to renovate a T-62 that has no place outside of a training facility.
Perhaps the T-62s are for export? all newer models will likely be taken up for replenishment of domestic stocks, so these may be the only product they may have to offer?
 
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