The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

I always like to watch French Defense Ministry report on Ukraine war. They are straight to the point and not adding BS like US or UK defense ministry on Ukranian war.

Practicaly their twitter put (sorry not speaking French thus only using google translate) on 3 main engagement:

1. Exchange artilery in Sumy,
2. Eastren Front (Donbas), Russia push but only modest gain,
3. Ukranian try to disrupt Russian Logistics in Southern front.

So clearly no BS like UK defense ministry that always talking on Ukranian counter offensive momentum since close to two months ago, as just another mouth piece of Ukranian propaganda.

Basically the French more honest to say, it is still a grinding attrition war.

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

The maps seem confusing in comparison around the city of Kharkiv the French map suggests that Kharkiv is surrounded? the U.K ministry suggests the opposite

Feanor · Aug 13, 2022

Todjaeger said:
What portions of airspace over the Black Sea do you think Russia could close, without triggering Article 5? Whilst the Black Sea is an inland sea, AFAIK there are portions of both the sea and the airspace above that would constitute international waters/airspace. Yes, NATO aircraft would need to cross through the airspace and territory of one or more nations to enter the Black Sea areas, but since there are three NATO members with coastlines on the Black Sea and there are adjoining NATO member-states which can give flight corridors... Provided NATO aircraft keep their flights to outside the 12 n mile limits of coastlines, then such flights even if they are harvester flights, should be able to continue.

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I have been under the impression that Article 5 required an attack on a NATO member state. Russia certainly doesn't have some sort of special authority to close airspace above international waters. But Russia doesn't have authority to close airspace over Ukraine either. Yet they have an NATO has complied. Nobody has flown aircraft into Ukrainian airspace with the intention of invoking Article 5. What would prevent Russia from making a similar statement regarding international airspace say south of Odessa?

seaspear said:
The maps seem confusing in comparison around the city of Kharkiv the French map suggests that Kharkiv is surrounded? the U.K ministry suggests the opposite

It's not surrounded. The shaded areas aren't Russian controlled necessarily.

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

seaspear said:
maps seem confusing in comparison around the city of Kharkiv the French map suggests that Kharkiv is surrounded? the U.K ministry suggests the opposite

Shaded area means active military operations from both sides. However Russia trying to gain momentum there. Seems that's the index in french means.

Well I trust the French ministry more then the UK ones. Then again it is back to anyone else preference. Like I put in previous posts, as one of big Western power, French seems more honest in their reporting, even in their mainstream media, on this war. Despite they are still off course like most Western possition, more bias to Ukraine sources.

vonnoobie · Aug 13, 2022

Ananda said:
View attachment 49590

I always like to watch French Defense Ministry report on Ukraine war. They are straight to the point and not adding BS like US or UK defense ministry on Ukranian war.

Practicaly their twitter put (sorry not speaking French thus only using google translate) on 3 main engagement:

1. Exchange artilery in Sumy,
2. Eastren Front (Donbas), Russia push but only modest gain,
3. Ukranian try to disrupt Russian Logistics in Southern front.

So clearly no BS like UK defense ministry that always talking on Ukranian counter offensive momentum since close to two months ago, as just another mouth piece of Ukranian propaganda.

Basically the French more honest to say, it is still a grinding attrition war.

.... And the French one also shows Ukrainian lines literally right up against the city of Kherson, and Severodonetsk still beingthought over... The French one is the very most basic update glossing over vast amounts of details and not even an accurate representation of the front lines... but sure the US and UK propaganda mouth pieces for Ukraine...

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

vonnoobie said:
The French one is the very most basic update glossing over vast amounts of details and not even an accurate representation of the front line

They are more honest eventough more basic information.

vonnoobie said:
but sure the US and UK propaganda mouth pieces for Ukraine...

Unless they shown more factual in the ground, what they shown mostly taking what Ukraine put in their media positioning. Then again everyone entitled on their opinion.

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

Can you provide proof that the French reports are more accurate?

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

seaspear said:
you provide proof that the French reports are more accurate?

Can you provide proof that US and UK reports are more accurate ? Besides I never say French ones is more accurate, I say they are more honest. They only shown what the situation in the ground on overall.

The way I see it, French provide assesment on something that are hapenning, and less bias judgmental opinion on this war as US and UK defense communique.

Besides what's the motive for French to tell less accurate opinion ? Because they are not tailing US and UK style, it is less accurate ?

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

Honesty and accuracy are the same thing in this context ,if there are reports on the coverage of this war that you presume are slanted because of the government bias being against the Russian attack on Ukraine ,then perhaps you only accept Russia's reporting of its "action" and can you show why its honest.,this is a U.N report on other statistics on this war
Ukraine | Situation Reports (unocha.org)

STURM · Aug 13, 2022

Anything said by anyone; whether Russia or the Ukraine and its supporters; has to be taken with a grain of salt. Given there's a war on; half truths; outright lies; propaganda and misinformation is to be expected.

The British MOD has been releasing assessments on a daily basis on the Russians; painting a very bleak picture. A lot of it isiaccurate accurate I'm sure and quite a bit of it is embellished.

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

seaspear said:
then perhaps you only accept Russia's reporting of its "action" and can you show why its honest.,this is a U.N report on other statistics on this war

Russian reporting is highly bias just like US and UK. French is more honest on the context they are not exagerating beyond what really happen inthe ground that already verifiable. Again as French not tailing US and UK style of reporting on this war, does not mean they are less accurate.

More honest does not mean they are more accurate, so it is different on any context. More honest means they are reporting as what have more effidences support. Less judgemental report and bias speculations.

I have talk in this thread for some time, I'm not either Pro Russian, Pro Ukraine and certaintly not pro US and Collective West thinking. I follow French official report as in my opinion they are more honest then US and UK ones, relative toward collective west officials standard on this war.

This war level of fogs of war already so high. Personally I found some media in French, Middle East and India try better to thread the middle reporting then those BS in US, UK, Russia, and Ukraine. Fell free though to trust US and UK officials.

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

I would be careful of accepting media only as an accurate source of what's happening there are some agencies that claim to have some accuracy
A quick guide to the best reporting on Russia-Ukraine invasion (crikey.com.au)
But the media do not have the access to the monitoring sources provided for defence and intelligence e.g. satellites and special aircraft all of which may collect electronic intelligence , before the start of this war the French believed there would not be an attack certainly the U.S and U.K stated otherwise

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

Just on India and its neutrality ,India does seem afraid to offend
What India’s position on Russia-Ukraine war means for its EU ties | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

seaspear said:
the media do not have the access to the monitoring sources provided for defence and intelligence e.g. satellites and special aircraft all of which may collect electronic intelligence

Yes, on that I agree media is not the best sources. However also the officials communique from either sides. Officials has more bias due to political need that back it up. Again for me on collective west officials communique, I just found (on this war), French more honest (in sense not being to much clouded by BS bias, relative to US and UK ones). Eventough French officials off course as part of collective west will be bias to pro Ukraine and anti Russian. That's my point all along.

Yes officials in collective west have more information and ISTAR assets reports. However don't ever think they will be honest completely on what they are letting to the publics. No officials on any sides will be completely honest and non bias.

seaspear said:
on India and its neutrality ,India does seem afraid to offend

India and most Asia Pacific are try to keep in the middle and sitting on the fences, just like most middle east. Thus why most media from those area are try to cover both sides and stay in the middle. Nothing new.

seaspear · Aug 13, 2022

I don't dispute that the media can portray events
How the Ukraine war exposed Western media bias - CNN
But to claim that the reporting of a war is slanted by governments because they are against the aggressor in this case requires some proof , I am not aware of French surveillance aircraft operating near the Ukraine borders certainly U.S.A.F and R.A.F this and the U.S better satellite coverage compared to France may provide a reason that their views of the situation may be different to the French , certainly on the political side France ,there was this report earlier
Macron claims Putin gave him personal assurances on Ukraine | Ukraine | The Guardian

Ananda · Aug 13, 2022

seaspear said:
I am not aware of French surveillance aircraft operating near the Ukraine borders certainly U.S.A.F and R.A.F this and the U.S better satellite coverage compared to France may provide a reason that their views of the situation may be different to the French , certainly on the political side France ,there was this report earlier

What's this got to do on anything ? You're comparing what US and UK have compared to French, with what they're going to say in public. Again you want to believe US and UK officials is up to you. For me, I don't see much difference on US and UK defense communique on this war compared to Russian ones. Each clouded on their own fog of war version.

Thus for me, I see French ones more honest compared to UK and US ones in this war. Thus your comparing French assets with US and UK ones on covering this war, has got nothing to do whatsoever with what they want to publish toward public. Russia also has extensive satellite coverage over Ukraine, doesn't mean what they are going to say in public reflect entirely on what they know.

Everyone try to pursue their own interests, including what they want to say to publics. Yes the officials knows better, but doesn't mean they are going to tell honestly on everything. That's why for me personally I check as much as I can on officials, media or Internet chatters. Whoever being circulate enough on each sides, usually have more grounds.

Feanor · Aug 13, 2022

Todjaeger said:
What portions of airspace over the Black Sea do you think Russia could close, without triggering Article 5? Whilst the Black Sea is an inland sea, AFAIK there are portions of both the sea and the airspace above that would constitute international waters/airspace. Yes, NATO aircraft would need to cross through the airspace and territory of one or more nations to enter the Black Sea areas, but since there are three NATO members with coastlines on the Black Sea and there are adjoining NATO member-states which can give flight corridors... Provided NATO aircraft keep their flights to outside the 12 n mile limits of coastlines, then such flights even if they are harvester flights, should be able to continue.

Russia could declare they're closing international airspace south of Odessa over the Black Sea. Would this be legal? Most certainly not. And given Russia's recent behavior they're obviously very concerned with legality... It would put the ball in the court of NATO countries to determine whether they want to challenge that. In principle one could brazenly fly in and challenge Russian threats. If one was then shot down Article 5 could trigger. I'm not saying this is a good idea, or even that it wouldn't backfire if tried. But it's something Russia could do, and it would drastically increase the risks of direct confrontation, as well as putting NATO in the uncomfortable position of setting course on a direct military confrontation with Russia or submitting to these demands.

On the flip side it's pretty clear that technology has changed the nature of war drastically. A theoretically neutral country could have it's assets as part of the kill chain, while operating out of international airspace. What would be the reaction to Russian A-50s providing AEW to the Iraqis during GW1? Especially if they're present in sufficient quantities and with sufficient capabilities to allow the Iraqis to inflict significant additional casualties on coalition aircraft? Because right now that's the boat Russia is in.

Feanor · Aug 13, 2022

Update.

Kherson-Nikolaev-Odessa.

Allegedly a destroyed HIMARS near Nikolaev, though I can't make out what's getting hit, it goes up pretty hard.

Херсонский Вестник

#эксклюзив На видео, уничтожение хваленого РСЗО «Himars», замаскированного в лесопосадке близ поселка Степное, Николаевской области. Экипаж РСЗО после совершения обстрела по Антоновскому мосту укрылся в листве, ожидая подвоза боекомплекта. Чтобы не упустить врага, расчет контрбатарейной борьбы...

t.me

Novaya Kahovka is getting hit again. It appears that despite recent efforts to destroy Ukrainian artillery, including through the use of loitering munitions, Russia hasn't managed to suppress it effectively. On the flip side we recently had Ukrainian sources out of Peski claiming they desperately lack artillery support. Is it wise to have artillery shelling Russia in Kherson region while Russian forces continue to advance in the Donbas?

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

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