contedicavour
New Member
The real deadline is around 2016 when there will be enough F35Bs to operate aboard the carrier. Having a CVF ready in 2014 when the whole RN will have half a dozen F35Bs won't really be very useful.
cheers
cheers
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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according to DID: By 2017, the process of replacing Harriers with F-35B STOVL aircraft will have begun in the British and USMC fleets, but the aircraft will still be in service.
it won't be 2017 until significant numbers of F35B in service
Also the USN isn't best pleased about oprateing F35B of the CVN as the large proprtion of marine pilots are onbored the CVN
that powerful
Nice idea-- since i am a big fan of the RN--, however, i am not convinced the RN is the second most powerful fleet on the planet. The russian navy and the chinese navy should be taken into consideration. Of course, some of this depends on how one defines powerful, with training, technology verses number of platforms and raw firepower...
its as pained me too see atleast 10 yrs of RN neglect.
thoughts please
Nice idea-- since i am a big fan of the RN--, however, i am not convinced the RN is the second most powerful fleet on the planet. The russian navy and the chinese navy should be taken into consideration. Of course, some of this depends on how one defines powerful, with training, technology verses number of platforms and raw firepower...
its as pained me too see atleast 10 yrs of RN neglect.
thoughts please
If the RN finally gets the carriers and associated strike aircraft then they will regain there prominence as the leading tier two navy after USN. Announcement due in November apparently!!!!
By 2017, if all goes according to plan, we should see at least 1 x carrier, 4 -5 astute class Submarines, 3 T45’s in service, with another 3 on order. Also maybe at least two stretched land-attack versions in the pipeline as well, and finally a comprehensive amphibious force (2 x Albion Class, 4 x Bay Class, 1 x Ocean Class).
Looking at either the Chinese or Russian Navy, you will not see the same combination of modern vessels capable of strike (carrier / submarine) and amphibious operations. It's not all doom and gloom.
By 2017, if all goes according to plan, we should see at least 1 x carrier, 4 -5 astute class Submarines, 3 T45’s in service, with another 3 on order. Also maybe at least two stretched land-attack versions in the pipeline as well, and finally a comprehensive amphibious force (2 x Albion Class, 4 x Bay Class, 1 x Ocean Class).
Looking at either the Chinese or Russian Navy, you will not see the same combination of modern vessels capable of strike (carrier / submarine) and amphibious operations. It's not all doom and gloom.
i think the agreement was partly put back due to the terrorism incident with the bombs in Glasgow and London as Gordy hasn't had a chance to do anything except form his government and deal with this new terrorisms incident
contedicavour
New Member
I've just read that the first F35Bs will be ready around 2009 and will be assigned to the UK and Italy as well to be tested. That would be good news because our Cavour will be a good testing ground.
Would the RN be able to test the F35Bs from the remaining Invincible carriers while the new CVs are being built ?
cheers
According to Beedall's site the RN no longer insists that the F-35B be able to fit the lifts of the Invincible class as it does not intend to operate them from this class. My understanding is that since its original conception the F-35B has grown in length and wingspan and both are now greater than that of the Harrier GR7/9. However, whether the F-35B will or won't fit the lifts would probably not prevent some testing fom these ships. It could mean of course that they would not be able to be struck down in the hangar for servicing which would prevent any operational deployment as part of a test program.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/jsf.htm
I have no idea how costly or technically difficult it would be to enlarge the lifts but unless there was a considerable delay with the CVF program I doubt it would be considered economical to do so.
Cheers
they should still fit in the lifts of Invincible despite the with of and increased size of the F35B both lifts are rated up to 40 tons
I am not a fan of spending money on the Invincible class to make it JSF ready when there are other current and relevant roles it can better serve.
I think the Invincible class is best utilized as an aviation platform for helicopters personally. It not only makes a perfect platform for testing future UAVs and UCAVs, but as a helicopter support platform the Royal Navy could put Longbows on target, which I think would make an enormous impact on how Navies deal with small boat swarms in the littoral.
With the addition of a heavy left crane, the extra hanger space could be converted to move some small boats for the SBS into regions like the Persian Gulf to operate along side RHIBs as fire support, and with the electronic suites and landing deck, it serves as a perfect Command and Control + Logistic platform for offshore naval activities similar to the purpose Ocean 6 currently serves around ABOT and KAAOT.
Just a few ideas. If I was Saudi Arabia, Brazil, or another nation heavily dependent on maritime security in the littoral for trade, I'd buy the ships of the Invincible class and use them for that specific purpose, although admittedly the Royal Navy could use the capability as well.
I think the Invincible class is best utilized as an aviation platform for helicopters personally. It not only makes a perfect platform for testing future UAVs and UCAVs, but as a helicopter support platform the Royal Navy could put Longbows on target, which I think would make an enormous impact on how Navies deal with small boat swarms in the littoral.
With the addition of a heavy left crane, the extra hanger space could be converted to move some small boats for the SBS into regions like the Persian Gulf to operate along side RHIBs as fire support, and with the electronic suites and landing deck, it serves as a perfect Command and Control + Logistic platform for offshore naval activities similar to the purpose Ocean 6 currently serves around ABOT and KAAOT.
Just a few ideas. If I was Saudi Arabia, Brazil, or another nation heavily dependent on maritime security in the littoral for trade, I'd buy the ships of the Invincible class and use them for that specific purpose, although admittedly the Royal Navy could use the capability as well.
exactly, the FCS and sensor package make Longbow a defacto GMTI AWACs asset - ideal for dealing with land and water borne packages.
Might be 'just a few ideas' but they are very good ones. I've thought for some time that an LHD/light carrier type embarking a force of marines, equipped with a mix of surveillance and attack helos, together with fast combat boats along the lines of the CB90, would be an ideal 'command' ship for a task force operating in a littoral environment.
Cheers
Galrahn,
during the refit which finished last year, Ark Royal was modified in the direction you suggest, though she didn't receive all your changes. The RN says "5 days notice" for amphibious ops, she has a small marine detachment permanently based, & can carry up to 400.
during the refit which finished last year, Ark Royal was modified in the direction you suggest, though she didn't receive all your changes. The RN says "5 days notice" for amphibious ops, she has a small marine detachment permanently based, & can carry up to 400.
contedicavour
New Member
This is an interesting topic. Who might consider buying the Invincibles once the CVFs are building ? Brazil has gone CTOL with the former French carrier Foch/Sao Paulo and the Skyhawks. Saudi has enough trouble manning the new FFGs, I don't see them embarking on a carrier acquisition.
Besides, the Invincibles are tightly linked to the Harrier and after 2020 servicing the Harriers will become next to impossible. So there are chances the ships would end up as helicopter (and UCAV ok) carriers. A bit big and expensive for most countries... if all they end up carrying is half a dozen ASW or Marines' helos.
cheers
They'd carry a lot more than half a dozen helos. They currently carry more than that alongside a dozen Sea Harriers. And they would be cheap to buy. Admittedly, not that cheap to run, as age will make 'em maintenance heavy, but for a country with low labour costs, acceptable. Look at the IN, which has just commissioned the ex-USS Trenton. Over ten years older than Invincible, & having led just as hard a life. The Indians bought Hermes when she was even older.
As an LPH, an Invincible would be acceptable, for the price. Do a refit & apply the Ark Royal mods, & more than just acceptable.
BTW, how is a ship which was designed as a helicopter carrier & modified while under construction to have a ski-jump "tightly linked to the Harrier"? They weren't originally designed for Harriers.
From what I heard, the Indian navy do not keep there ships maintained to a very good standard. I know for a fact that Hermes is in a terrible state. One of the European Countrys with smaller navies (Germany, Holland etc) may take one of the Invincibles. I could also see Australia taking one if there current government defence policy is maintained. Canada and Brazil are also a possibility.
ex-Hermes is older than any of her crew. What state do you expect her to be in? She should be in a museum.
I can't see any European country taking an Invincible. The Dutch & Germans would want something with lower manning levels & lower maintenance costs. Maintenance is manpower-intensive, & they (like most European navies) have manning problems & high manpower costs. Everyone else has newer ships in the same role, or no slot to fill.
Australia is not in the market for an Invincible. Doesn't have the crews, & just ordered two bigger (& STOVL-capable) LHDs. Already covered the requirement. Nor Canada, as far as I can see. No stated requirement, has never expressed any interest. Wants something to deploy vehicles. Brazil already has an aircraft carrier which is under-used due to the maintenance demands, so would also seem to be an outside chance, but with Brazilian defence procurement one never knows.
Brazil is without a carrier Foch is in refit as its Cats are broken its got only 2 qualified carrier pilots in unarmed skyhawks [they might have sidewinders] but are radarless and their is no siqnals that their are any upgrades imminent for the skyhawks and only 4 are air worthy
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71186
and the rest of the Brazilian fleet is quite dated compared with Chile.
if the RN don't keep invinsable[i would like them to keep it] would Canada consider taking it as their BHS an LPH on the cheap like their ocean going SSK on the cheap
:vamp again if looking at Europe the Dutch would be a good candidate [dutch rm in cold war days was part of 3Codo two LPD 4 advanced AAW vessels and overseas territories and a long history with the RN] except for their government and their defense slashing ways http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/...idsplaatsen_in
i personally feel that of the harrier carriers [not including cavor]the invinsables are the best suited to F35 use as they are the largest and have two big lifts which are well place on deck and has the largest skiijump in degrees [don't know how it compares with cavor] and internal lifts for seakeeping
According to the UK Times Brunei will sell its BAE designed corvettes for 600M. The UK should buy for them for use in Iraqi waters. Times Quote as follows:
"Brunei ordered the F2000 warships in 1998 as part of a modernisation of its navy. The corvettes are high-speed vessels designed for use in coastal protection, specifically the defence of Brunei’s offshore oil assets. Defence sources believe that the real reason for Brunei’s dissatisfaction with the vessels is that they were overcommissioned and therefore too complex for Brunei’s navy. The ships are armed with Exocet Block II antiship missiles, Seawolf surface-to-air missiles and a front-mounted gun."
Apparently BAE won the case and Brunei had to pay the full amount.
"Brunei ordered the F2000 warships in 1998 as part of a modernisation of its navy. The corvettes are high-speed vessels designed for use in coastal protection, specifically the defence of Brunei’s offshore oil assets. Defence sources believe that the real reason for Brunei’s dissatisfaction with the vessels is that they were overcommissioned and therefore too complex for Brunei’s navy. The ships are armed with Exocet Block II antiship missiles, Seawolf surface-to-air missiles and a front-mounted gun."
Apparently BAE won the case and Brunei had to pay the full amount.
I don't see these ships as being useful to the RN. We need ships with greater range & endurance, for open oceans, & if we're going to be in Iraq for long enough to need ships specialised for local conditions, I'd say it's time to get a new government, not new ships.
For a local navy, they'd be fine. Like a slightly bigger Omani Qahir.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
The UK should certainly not buy them. For the price they're a rip-off - the Royal Navy doesn't have £600 million spare. If it did have that amount of extra cash, we could get CVF approved tomorrow and maybe even more Type-45s building.
swerve is right on points about endurance. What we need is a new class of ships for this sort of "oceanic policing", to free up our larger ships for escort duty and direct warfare. £600 million on the Brunei ships would mean £600 million not put into the new class, which would push up unit costs and reduce the number ordered.