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Final rant taken from the previous 2002 article:

"All during the British Perisher course, the Dutch were running their own version – the International Diesel Submarine Command Course. This is convened once per year, taught in English, and offered to the international community. The British and Dutch conduct their Perisher sea training concurrently to enable the two forces to train against each other".
 
riksavage said:
Final rant taken from the previous 2002 article:

"All during the British Perisher course, the Dutch were running their own version – the International Diesel Submarine Command Course. This is convened once per year, taught in English, and offered to the international community. The British and Dutch conduct their Perisher sea training concurrently to enable the two forces to train against each other".
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Final rant from me.

The article is 2002. Things are different now. The UK doesn't and hasn't had the budget to do this for years.

eg the USN trains against some 12+ different submarine fleets per year -even with that level of access they still needed to have an organic presence to make it meaningful for consistency. Hence my prev rants that instead of getting Gotland they would have been far better off leasing the entire danish squadron rather than just one boat. after all, the requirement was for training against capability and squadron opposition would have been far more viable.

USN, RN and France have their own discreet nuke training programmes - but Perishers importance lies in training nuke drivers and AWOs for the conventional threat. Organic presence made it much more effective -hence why the RN was the creme de la creme when they ran nukes and diesels.

2002 is not 2007
 
gf0012-aust said:
Final rant from me.

The article is 2002. Things are different now. The UK doesn't and hasn't had the budget to do this for years....
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According to RN websites, including those of the boats concerned, Turbulent was a Perisher boat last year, & Trenchant was used earlier this year. 5 students on the Trenchant course. Her website has a couple of periscope photos of HMS St Albans and HMS Kent from the "eyes only" phase.

Everything I can find says that the British & Dutch navies still run their courses in parallel, exactly as that 2002 article describes, & on the same schedule. What do you reckon has changed?
 
I'd like to find material on the types and quantities of NATO submarine exercises as compared to "now" and during the cold war.

Am I wrong to assume both the tempo and the quality of boat exercises would be far lower then they were in the days of huge budgets to contain the Soviets? At one time one of the greatest assets of NATO was the overall quality of submarine OPs, and, the assortment of boats to exercise with.

Almost everything to do with submarines is shrouded in mystery but I'd really like to find out how we compare to 30 years ago in the pace and quality of our inter-NATO submarine training.
 
swerve said:
According to RN websites, including those of the boats concerned, Turbulent was a Perisher boat last year, & Trenchant was used earlier this year. 5 students on the Trenchant course. Her website has a couple of periscope photos of HMS St Albans and HMS Kent from the "eyes only" phase.

Everything I can find says that the British & Dutch navies still run their courses in parallel, exactly as that 2002 article describes, & on the same schedule. What do you reckon has changed?
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my understanding from RAN and USN officers whohave participated on exchanges is that the courses are diminished and less frequent due to budget limitations.

the sheer advantage of running concurrent courses changed as soon as the Upholders were decommissioned. They don't have constant real time access to the Dutch subs.

One of the principle advantages that the RN always had was that they could train DUCT internally and in real time. They no longer have that.

Apart from that, RN submariners have been participating on the US and Fr equiv Perishers as part of regular exchanges.

on another note, the people I work with incl a company director who is an ex RN nuke driver, ex RAN oberon driver and involved with sig mgt systems - we currently deal with RAN/RN/USN/RSN on acoustic warfare issues.
 
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Rich said:
Am I wrong to assume both the tempo and the quality of boat exercises would be far lower then they were in the days of huge budgets to contain the Soviets? At one time one of the greatest assets of NATO was the overall quality of submarine OPs, and, the assortment of boats to exercise with.
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The USN has the luxury of being able to engage in multiple dissimilar platform senarios - eg they train against various euro, sth american, sth east asian and RIMPAC countries. In excess of a dozen diff sub types.

No other country gets the same level of dissimilar exposure (and frequency).

(although we all share the data as much as possible. eg CBASS inclues years of data from various sources)
 
I'm sorry GF0012-aust, but your informal chats with Navy associates do not offer conclusive evidence that the UK has reduced its very strict adherence to the Perisher principle, which remains a right of passage for any UK Sub commander. They STILL conduct the courses annually (in parallel with the Dutch), they STILL train with and against NATO allies each year, and they STILL have active exchange programmes with the USN.

The only difference being we no longer operate a diesel / conventional fleet, so why run a diesel / conventional course if all UK Submariners are destined to serve on SSN's / SSBN's. The fact that the RN still operates an SSBN national strategic deterrent means that the commanders of such vessels must be tested to the limit, practiced in their art and kept current.
 
riksavage said:
I'm sorry GF0012-aust, but your informal chats with Navy associates do not offer conclusive evidence that the UK has reduced its very strict adherence to the Perisher principle, which remains a right of passage for any UK Sub commander. They STILL conduct the courses annually (in parallel with the Dutch), they STILL train with and against NATO allies each year, and they STILL have active exchange programmes with the USN.

The only difference being we no longer operate a diesel / conventional fleet, so why run a diesel / conventional course if all UK Submariners are destined to serve on SSN's / SSBN's. The fact that the RN still operates an SSBN national strategic deterrent means that the commanders of such vessels must be tested to the limit, practiced in their art and kept current.
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Its more than informal chats - we deal with them on acoustic warfare management issues.

they train less they have in the past -and the access they had is diluted as well. no amount of current vaidation changes that they are on diminished DUCT training schedules and that loss of the conventionals impacts upon it.

we'll just have to agree to disagree

on another note,my personal view is that RN submariners are the best in the world at what they do - do I need to provvide empirical evidence to back that up as well?

I'm providing observations based on my own contact - it can't be helped if people disagree with it. I stand by my own observations as such. The RN sub training has changed out of necessity, the fact that concurrent organic training is no longer available does change the training dynamics as it means that prev littorals training is now dependant on timeslotting into the dutch or the RAN off of WA in the Aust sub training area. Prev, it would have happened in real time just out of scotland. they no longer have that luxury.

my comments have nothing to do with perceptions of competency and capability.
 
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gf0012-aust said:
... the fact that concurrent organic training is no longer available does change the training dynamics as it means that prev littorals training is now dependant on timeslotting into the dutch or the RAN off of WA in the Aust sub training area. ....
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The RN has training exercises with Norway, Germany, & other NATO countries which include submarines, not only with the Netherlands & Australia. For example, other NATO submarines commonly participate in Neptune Warrior, which is held about 3 times a year - & in which the RAN has taken part. Off Scotland . . . There was a Norwegian submarine this year.
 
swerve said:
That doesn't sound to me like being dependent on slotting into Dutch or RAN training in their training areas.
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where did I say that they were dependant? my comment is that they have less organic DUCT which out of necessity requires slipstreaming into other conventional owners. I used the RNN and RAN as examples.

I'm struggling to understand why UK posters are sensitive about this when RN officers attached to RAN say the same things????
 
gf0012-aust said:
where did I say that they were dependant?
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That's why I had second thoughts & deleted it. But you replied first.
gf0012-aust said:
my comment is that they have less organic DUCT which out of necessity requires slipstreaming into other conventional owners. I used the RNN and RAN as examples.

I'm struggling to understand why UK posters are sensitive about this when RN officers attached to RAN say the same things????
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I'm not disagreeing with you when you say the RN has reduced submarine training (fewer subs, hard to maintain the same tempo), just quibbling over details. It read to me as if you were saying the RNlN & RAN were now the RNs only training partners for DUCT.
 
swerve said:
I'm not disagreeing with you when you say the RN has reduced submarine training (fewer subs, hard to maintain the same tempo), just quibbling over details. It read to me as if you were saying the RNlN & RAN were now the RNs only training partners for DUCT.
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well, if that was the perception, then the error is mine but unintended.
 
I really am concerned about America's sub-killing capabilities now. The ocean floor will be flooded with Subs from every corner of the Continent. Just where is America at? it's stealth sub program is way behind.

Does anyone have any real info? I'm no expert. :nutkick
 
Dae JoYoung said:
I really am concerned about America's sub-killing capabilities now. The ocean floor will be flooded with Subs from every corner of the Continent. Just where is America at? it's stealth sub program is way behind.

Does anyone have any real info? I'm no expert. :nutkick
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Has this guy ever posted anything that made sense?

"every corner of the continent"?
 
Dae JoYoung said:
I really am concerned about America's sub-killing capabilities now. The ocean floor will be flooded with Subs from every corner of the Continent. Just where is America at? it's stealth sub program is way behind.

Does anyone have any real info? I'm no expert. :nutkick
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Firstly I wonder what evidence you have that America's stealth program is behind. Secondly I wonder why this topic is in the Royal Navy thread as it appears to have nothing to do with the RN unless you are concerned that America will be unable to 'kill' RN subs!

Cheers
 
Is their any news on the new Queen Elizibeth Class CVF carriers? Are they still to be launched mid 2010?

The introduction of these new carriers will not only add more capibility with the new F-35 VSTOL fighters to the RN, but restore within the RN prestige that has been dissapearing within all the British services of late.

cheers,
Josh
 
joshoman said:
Is their any news on the new Queen Elizibeth Class CVF carriers? Are they still to be launched mid 2010?

The introduction of these new carriers will not only add more capibility with the new F-35 VSTOL fighters to the RN, but restore within the RN prestige that has been dissapearing within all the British services of late.

cheers,
Josh
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The carriers will be announced after Gordon becomes PM.

They were always planned for 2012 and 2014, not 2010. The first will enter service a tad late.

Not sure about any prestige disappearing, though? The RN is easily the 2nd most powerful fleet on the planet.
 
Padfoot said:
The carriers will be announced after Gordon becomes PM.

They were always planned for 2012 and 2014, not 2010. The first will enter service a tad late.

Not sure about any prestige disappearing, though? The RN is easily the 2nd most powerful fleet on the planet.
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i hope so because with so many delays to order these 2 ships some people even discuss about the possibility of cancellation.
 
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