The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Musashi_kenshin]

Good news about I-SSGW.

Guided Weapons

Ministry of Defence written question – answered at 7 December 2020

www.theyworkforyou.com

"A competition is now taking place and on current plans, subject to funding, we expect bids to provide a solution to SSGW, by mid-2021."

In some respects this isn't a surprise given information about the bids was discovered in April, but I think this is the first official confirmation that they've been made and are under consideration. It's probable that the funding will be explicitly confirmed next month during the defence review, given that it should be one of the Royal Navy's priorities.

 

[Systems Adict]

Good news about I-SSGW.

Guided Weapons

Ministry of Defence written question – answered at 7 December 2020

www.theyworkforyou.com

"A competition is now taking place and on current plans, subject to funding, we expect bids to provide a solution to SSGW, by mid-2021."

In some respects this isn't a surprise given information about the bids was discovered in April, but I think this is the first official confirmation that they've been made and are under consideration. It's probable that the funding will be explicitly confirmed next month during the defence review, given that it should be one of the Royal Navy's priorities.

I actually thought that the fact that Harpoon is being withdrawn from UK service was more a diver on this ? Something that's been on the cards for about 18 months...

More details emerge about plan to replace Royal Navy Harpoon anti-ship missile

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I actually thought that the fact that Harpoon is being withdrawn from UK service was more a diver on this ? Something that's been on the cards for about 18 months...

Yes, but the concern was that it had been kicked into the long grass due to budgetary issues. In that scenario, either the RGM-84s would have had their lives extended (without upgrade and therefore be rubbish), or they'd go out of service with the replacement delayed until the 2030s - much like how the harriers were retired without the F-35s being ready.

The fact it's finally been officially confirmed that there's an active competition under consideration and that there's a scheduled end point (mid 2021) is good because the extra money hasn't even been provided yet, which shows it's seen as a priority and not a "would be nice but don't need" project. That means the budget increase should pretty much guarantee something decent will be selected, and to be honest all of the three bidders are offering adequate interim solutions.

 

[Atlantic Realm]

Question: why does the Royal Navy have no fast attack craft ? Many if not most other navies seem to have them. Think: Visby, Skjold, Hayabusa, LCS come to mind. Fast vessels medium and small. I am not suggesting such would be vital to UK’s coastal Defence. Just curious as to their absence.

 

[StobieWan]

Question: why does the Royal Navy have no fast attack craft ? Many if not most other navies seem to have them. Think: Visby, Skjold, Hayabusa, LCS come to mind. Fast vessels medium and small. I am not suggesting such would be vital to UK’s coastal Defence. Just curious as to their absence.

CONOPS basically - we're a small island largely surrounded by large oceans and as a small island, there are airfields in easy reach of the entire coast.

Our nearest neighbour, well, we've not gone to war with them in a while so FACs would just be crew and resources pointed at a solution to a problem that can be solved more reliably by other systems. I mean, we could just scramble a flight of Apache at anything in the channel - 16 hellfire travelling at 175 knots sounds like a very capable FAC to me.

 

[Atlantic Realm]

CONOPS basically - we're a small island largely surrounded by large oceans and as a small island, there are airfields in easy reach of the entire coast.

Our nearest neighbour, well, we've not gone to war with them in a while so FACs would just be crew and resources pointed at a solution to a problem that can be solved more reliably by other systems. I mean, we could just scramble a flight of Apache at anything in the channel - 16 hellfire travelling at 175 knots sounds like a very capable FAC to me.

Sounds sensible. Thanks for the response.

 

[StobieWan]

I've been thinking a bit more about this and the last time the RN had anything like an FAC were the MTB's in various channel raids during WWII - using the cover of darkness, fog and weather to slip out and into the channel to strike.

It does underline how technology has changed that aspect of war because now, in a high intensity conflict, where traffic in the channel was reduced by war, I'm not sure you'd be able to cast off before you'd be on a target list.

With the right ISTAR the opposition could probably be warming up a hellfire or similar about two minutes after you'd fired the engines up while still along side. It's a crowded water way for sure.

 

[spoz]

Actually, the last time the RN had operational FAC was the early 60s with the Dark class of convertible MGB/MTBs. The later Brave class of which there were two were great fun, but they were also experimental. However, the main point, their vulnerability, is very true - and why the Brits stopped FAC development when they did.

 

[StobieWan]

Actually, the last time the RN had operational FAC was the early 60s with the Dark class of convertible MGB/MTBs. The later Brave class of which there were two were great fun, but they were also experimental. However, the main point, their vulnerability, is very true - and why the Brits stopped FAC development when they did.

Thanks - there was something lurking in the back of my mind about there being something later. I've just looked up the Braves and yeah, at 52 knots with three GT's, they'd have been absolutely hilarious. Thanks for mentioning that - never looked at them til now

 

[At lakes]

There was one a little later HMS Tenacity. Built as a private venture by VT in 1969. Chartered by the Royal Navy o be part of a couple of NATO erxercise's. Apparantly it did okay and the RN purchased it outright in 1972. They stripped all the weapons systems from it and employed it in the fisheries protection duties for about 10years.

British Military Powerboat Trust, Coastal Forces, Gunboats, Target Boats, High Speed Launches, Motor Gun Boats, Torpedo Boats, Patrol Boats, Seaplane Tenders

The British military powerboats of the 1930s and 1940s were the finest in the world. Developed from a series of record breaking speedboats, these rugged, graceful craft were so far ahead of their time that their design has never been surpassed

www.bmpt.org.uk

 

[Atlantic Realm]

Actually, the last time the RN had operational FAC was the early 60s with the Dark class of convertible MGB/MTBs. The later Brave class of which there were two were great fun, but they were also experimental. However, the main point, their vulnerability, is very true - and why the Brits stopped FAC development when they did.

Interesting, so they dropped development based on the supposition that FAC’s are inherently vulnerable ? Begs the question as to why other countries would continue to build them.

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting, so they dropped development based on the supposition that FAC’s are inherently vulnerable ? Begs the question as to why other countries would continue to build them.

Different CONOPS. The RN, like the USN, isn't the fount of all wisdom and they didn't see, don't see the FAC as having a place in their fleet. Whereas the USN still has an interest in PB and FAC capabilities in the littoral zone. They used their PBs to great effect during the Vietnam War.

 

[CB90]

Different CONOPS. The RN, like the USN, isn't the fount of all wisdom and they didn't see, don't see the FAC as having a place in their fleet. Whereas the USN still has an interest in PB and FAC capabilities in the littoral zone. They used their PBs to great effect during the Vietnam War.

Nomenclature is funny, and its evolution has made things even more confusing over the years.

The Vietnam era PBRs were rather small, and actually well below the typical displacement for a FAC. They were basically slapped together in a rush during the war using a commercial inshore boat design modified for military requirements. The USN didn't have much love for FACs either and the littoral force in Vietnam was very much a pick up team put together of whatever easily adapted designs were available.

The typical "FAC" today is actually very close in many ways to the original <torpedo boat> destroyer.
The main reason neither the USN or RN ever favored them is they are really most useful to a defensive navy, while both have been blue water navies focused on power projection.
They got favor in navies such as some of the Scandinavian ones, as they were expected to take advantage of their local terrain to hide from a larger aggressor (ie the Soviet Navy) and essentially function as mobile missile batteries

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

UK signs Spear 3 missile production deal for F-35 fleet

The UK Ministry of Defence has awarded MBDA a £550 million ($750 million), seven-year demonstration and manufacturing contract for its Spear 3 air-to-surface missile, which will arm its Lockheed Martin F-35Bs.

www.flightglobal.com

I suppose this production order is an indication that the UK is likely to upgrade its F-35s to Block 4 - or most of them - otherwise the Royal Navy would be left with some great weapons its planes couldn't use.

The fact SPEAR 3 is compact means an F-35 can carry a load of them as well. Definitely a brilliantly designed missile.

 

[Systems Adict]

...In other news - the last of the x5 new OPV's is commissioned....

White Ensign raised as HMS Spey joins the Royal Navy

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Babcock to continue Harpoon in-service support for the Royal Navy - Naval News

Babcock International announced that it has been awarded a further year contract extension to continue in-service support to the Harpoon Missile System for the Royal Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Harpoon will now be available for an extra year (if required).

Not sure about the news about LRASM being in the running as I was under the impression it was for the Mk41 VLS only so wouldn't work on anything other than the Type 26, plus it's the most expensive option. However, I'm pleased to hear Exocet has received a further modification - Block 3C sounds like a reasonable upgrade over the older Block 3. Personally I'd still go with the RBS-15 Gungnir if it's available fairly quickly.

 

[Systems Adict]

Saw this earlier this evening, so thought it would be good to share...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354066685775503360

 

[swerve]

UK signs Spear 3 missile production deal for F-35 fleet

The UK Ministry of Defence has awarded MBDA a £550 million ($750 million), seven-year demonstration and manufacturing contract for its Spear 3 air-to-surface missile, which will arm its Lockheed Martin F-35Bs.

www.flightglobal.com

I suppose this production order is an indication that the UK is likely to upgrade its F-35s to Block 4 - or most of them - otherwise the Royal Navy would be left with some great weapons its planes couldn't use.

The fact SPEAR 3 is compact means an F-35 can carry a load of them as well. Definitely a brilliantly designed missile.

Let's hope that it finds more customers than the RAF & FAA.

 

[shadow99]

Interesting article at CTV News on the CSC

National Defence grappling with new delay in $60B warship project

The Department of National Defence says the first of 15 new warships being built for the Royal Canadian Navy will be delivered years later than expected as officials working on the $60-billion project grapple with unexpected design and construction challenges.

www.ctvnews.ca

Troy Crosby of the defence dept states

"...current plan is to start cutting steel on the first new warship as scheduled in 2023-24, while work on the final design continues. "

"...said the British and Australian experiences have shown that construction of the new vessels will take 7 1/2 years

"...first ship being delivered to us in the early 2030s. ... In this case, we're really more specifically looking at the 2030-31 timeframe."


I'm not doing the math(these dates seem to drag on), but the last Halifax class ship will be pretty old by the time the last csc is built

edit this should be in the RCN thread. perhaps the mods can move it?

 

[John Fedup]

Just the usual media bias against any floating military asset. Any suggestions that cancelling the CSC and changing the selection will save money is bovine fecal matter. COVID will delay things somewhat. The last Halifax ship (HMCS Ottawa) was laid down in 1996 so it will be over 40 years old before it gets replaced which is too old IMO but the RCN has dealt with overage ships and will continue to do so.