The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

DaveS124

Active Member
QE sailed approx 0830Z 21JAN20
Nope! That was the intention, but departure was delayed. QE still alongside in Portsmouth.

the ship will also carry 24 F-35B, including USMC aircraft, in addition to a number of helicopters.
The number of embarked jets for next year's deployment is unknown, no matter how much the folks at 'Navy Lookout' state otherwise. There is no way the UK can embark 12 F-35Bs next year. Six is a far likelier number. Further, the number of USMC jets is unknown. While an established USMC F-35B squadron is now 16 frames (recently increased from 15) it's hard to see them putting 12 in the ship - that really wouldn't look good, for them or the UK. They might, but, to use the current term, 'optics' could make that rather difficult.

So, the details for next year's work comfortably fall under the banner of Wait And See.

Or possibly Wait and Sea. :p
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The number of embarked jets for next year's deployment is unknown, no matter how much the folks at 'Navy Lookout' state otherwise. There is no way the UK can embark 12 F-35Bs next year. Six is a far likelier number. Further, the number of USMC jets is unknown. While an established USMC F-35B squadron is now 16 frames (recently increased from 15) it's hard to see them putting 12 in the ship - that really wouldn't look good, for them or the UK. They might, but, to use the current term, 'optics' could make that rather difficult.

I can 'understand' your comments & having done a search with everyone's friend (Google), I turned up the following data...

https://ukdj.imgix.net/46cbd449cfa630848981a8a08a73e77d_/Carrier-Strike-Timeline-e.jpg?auto=compress,format&ixlib=php-1.2.1&s=1fcc07483bfee1a51c82d907297a708e

I appreciate that the data is from a culmination of sources, but if the numbers are to believed, by the end of 2019 the UK had x18 F35B airframes that UK PLC owns. In that total are x3 'test airframes', so in theory 15 could be available. The likelihood of x12 UK airframes being on QE for deployment & testing are a stretch, as it is more likely that they'll be used as part of the operating training & maintenance routines for the ground crews, conducted here in the UK, saving taxpayers a fortune sending crews to the US, but that's not to say that x8 or 10 airframes could be deployed.

Until the numbers come out from Whitehall / RN news channels, we will continue to keep guessing...
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not a celabratory G&T alongside the tea? I take it you don't belong to the Barmy Army then?

More of a single malt bloke if I were being honest.

Either way, definitely excited to see things moving along, points noted about the proposed vs realistic air wing and further cautionary notes about Crowsnest being perhaps delayed but in the main, we're in for some exciting times in the RN.
 

OldNavy63

Active Member
A fine article from the ‘Save The Royal Navy’ website on upgrading options for the RN’s Batch II River class OPVs.

Enhancing the Royal Navy’s batch II OPVs | Save the Royal Navy

Slightly larger than the RAN’s Arafura class OPV, the options depicted could free up the RN’s (too few), major combatants for employment in higher threat areas.

The Scheibel S-100 Camcopter can be fitted with 2 x LMM Martlett missiles (a future option for the RAN). The OPV Plus suggestion includes 2 x 30mm Automated Small Calbre Guns which could also be fitted with 5 x LMM.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The batch 1 are almost exactly the same dimensions as the RAN's OPV.. So batch 2 are a notch bigger.

I like the OPV plus. I think a 40mm is a cheap, worthy and useful upgrade. It gives some reach and some punch. 2x30mm is probably over kill, but would be nice if there is space and weight for it. Such a fitout gives it a fair amount of useful capability, while still clearly staying in its original role and with minimal costs.

IMO its probably better to focus on sensors than actual weapons for a OPV. Its not a battleship. Decent radar etc and the ability to embark capability when needed is probably a better place to focus resources.
 

the concerned

Active Member
With the 57mm about to be placed on the T31's is that not a better option than the 40mm giving commonality with ammunition also the Lmm is capable of engaging helicopters and uavs. Just needs help targeting.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A fine article from the ‘Save The Royal Navy’ website on upgrading options for the RN’s Batch II River class OPVs.

Enhancing the Royal Navy’s batch II OPVs | Save the Royal Navy

Slightly larger than the RAN’s Arafura class OPV, the options depicted could free up the RN’s (too few), major combatants for employment in higher threat areas.

The Scheibel S-100 Camcopter can be fitted with 2 x LMM Martlett missiles (a future option for the RAN). The OPV Plus suggestion includes 2 x 30mm Automated Small Calbre Guns which could also be fitted with 5 x LMM.
As articles go, SOME of the various suggestions for the RN's RCB2's are 'interesting', in that they could indeed be worked into the hull form. x2, 30mm guns on the back of the bridge wings, are feasible (knowing the the Hull design & arrangements are based on the ex-T&T / Amazonas ships that Brazil currently have). Practicalities of upgunning the current 30mm to the BAE / Bofors Mk110 / Oto Melara SR 76mm are a bit of a stretch, as while the ship does have a reasonably sized magazine in the vicinity, the practicalities of getting the rounds to the mount, aren't that easy.

The issue in all of this is that the RN / UK Plc have got what they have paid for & to make major changes to enhance the Combat System / Upgrade the Radar / up-gun the main gun / provide a hangar / aircraft weapons facilities do effectively mean a redesign to a Batch 3 format, as most of the work NEEDS to be done at a design level, before the platforms were built.

Taking HMS Forth / Medway / Trent / Tamar / Spey & attempting to integrate any one of these upgrades would effectively mean pulling the ship from the fleet for about 1 year / 18 months, to rip the area of the ship to bits that is being 'enhanced'.

For instance...

x2 30mm guns at the bridge deck - seating is a simple weld to the deck job / ready use magazines are already in the vicinity & could be added to provide more storage, but the control system for the gun needs to be added, cabling/power supplies from the gun to the ops room & from radar / EO system / technical interfaces that allow the
relevant tracking system to integrate with the guns are needed / would need to be coded / written / proven.

Radar Enhancement - is it simply a software update to the current kit ?

...or more likely a rip out & replacement of all the control gear, the radar antenna, upgraded / uprated cabling / power supplies from ships distribution system / additional HVAC capability in the radar room to cool the wild heat from a larger transmitter / interface redesign / re-write to allow the equipment to interact with the command system & every other electronic equipment that can use radar data.

THESE thoughts above are off the top of my head !

Actual, in-depth examination / costing / alignment with other systems being used across the fleet to keep commonality with spares / testing / training of staff costs down, all need factored in, so that UK Plc KNOWS how much an 'enhancement' will cost in real terms, so that benefits can be weighed up.

At this time, simplistic enhancements that take little time to do & don't tie the ships up in harbour for months are the way to go. LMM on the current 30mm mount would be relatively straight forward (yes, cabling / power supplies / cable routing / interfaces would be needed). Adding stand alone systems such as LRAD, would provide capability upgrades, but most of the meat on the bones of the changes simply can't fly...

I think you can guess where my money would be spent, If I were in charge of the RN purse strings & the RN had the funds to spare...

SA
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With the 57mm about to be placed on the T31's is that not a better option than the 40mm giving commonality with ammunition also the Lmm is capable of engaging helicopters and uavs. Just needs help targeting.
Well it would certainly be doable. I forget the T31 is going 57mm.. I always thought proper vessels sported 76mm or larger..
If you had 2x30's then going big on the front gun would make a lot of sense.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Is it settled that it's 57mm? I thought it was "at least 57mm".

The Canadian Halifax class frigates have a 57mm main gun.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
As articles go, SOME of the various suggestions for the RN's RCB2's are 'interesting', in that they could indeed be worked into the hull form. x2, 30mm guns on the back of the bridge wings, are feasible (knowing the the Hull design & arrangements are based on the ex-T&T / Amazonas ships that Brazil currently have). Practicalities of upgunning the current 30mm to the BAE / Bofors Mk110 / Oto Melara SR 76mm are a bit of a stretch, as while the ship does have a reasonably sized magazine in the vicinity, the practicalities of getting the rounds to the mount, aren't that easy.

The issue in all of this is that the RN / UK Plc have got what they have paid for & to make major changes to enhance the Combat System / Upgrade the Radar / up-gun the main gun / provide a hangar / aircraft weapons facilities do effectively mean a redesign to a Batch 3 format, as most of the work NEEDS to be done at a design level, before the platforms were built.

Taking HMS Forth / Medway / Trent / Tamar / Spey & attempting to integrate any one of these upgrades would effectively mean pulling the ship from the fleet for about 1 year / 18 months, to rip the area of the ship to bits that is being 'enhanced'.

For instance...

x2 30mm guns at the bridge deck - seating is a simple weld to the deck job / ready use magazines are already in the vicinity & could be added to provide more storage, but the control system for the gun needs to be added, cabling/power supplies from the gun to the ops room & from radar / EO system / technical interfaces that allow the
relevant tracking system to integrate with the guns are needed / would need to be coded / written / proven.

Radar Enhancement - is it simply a software update to the current kit ?

...or more likely a rip out & replacement of all the control gear, the radar antenna, upgraded / uprated cabling / power supplies from ships distribution system / additional HVAC capability in the radar room to cool the wild heat from a larger transmitter / interface redesign / re-write to allow the equipment to interact with the command system & every other electronic equipment that can use radar data.

THESE thoughts above are off the top of my head !

Actual, in-depth examination / costing / alignment with other systems being used across the fleet to keep commonality with spares / testing / training of staff costs down, all need factored in, so that UK Plc KNOWS how much an 'enhancement' will cost in real terms, so that benefits can be weighed up.

At this time, simplistic enhancements that take little time to do & don't tie the ships up in harbour for months are the way to go. LMM on the current 30mm mount would be relatively straight forward (yes, cabling / power supplies / cable routing / interfaces would be needed). Adding stand alone systems such as LRAD, would provide capability upgrades, but most of the meat on the bones of the changes simply can't fly...

I think you can guess where my money would be spent, If I were in charge of the RN purse strings & the RN had the funds to spare...

SA

I've always asked people to picture in their mind a Type 31 or 26, and pretend that everything they are putting onto a River, they're having to unbolt from something else.

I'd sooner try and squeeze another one or two Type 31 out of the build cycle than bling up the Rivers.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is it settled that it's 57mm? I thought it was "at least 57mm".

The Canadian Halifax class frigates have a 57mm main gun.

Just had a convo with an attendant at the annual RN warfare conference and yes, 57mm is a thing - Type 31 will have 1x 57 mm and 2x40mm.


So, while definitely not a total spectrum warfare candidate, as a Boghammer plinker, better equipped than anything else in the RN.

Will other ships get 57mm ? If there's money and a requirement.

I would suspect there's at least a passing chance that Type 45 might have the 4.5 incher removed and a 57mm installed instead - it's either that or 127mm and the 57mm will be more useful as it's a nice gap-filler between CWIS/30mm and Sea Viper.
 

Hone C

Active Member
Before we get ahead of ourselves reference OPV upgrades, it appears the proposed Type 31 fitout is already being adjusted to remain within budget constraints. Babcock's latest images show a reduction of 24 to 12 Sea Ceptor cells.

The Type 31 frigate in view | Save the Royal Navy

While hopefully the upcoming SADR will see increased funding across UK defence, I remain unconvinced that either the cash or political will exists to reverse the steady erosion of numbers and capability seen in recent decades.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Before we get ahead of ourselves reference OPV upgrades, it appears the proposed Type 31 fitout is already being adjusted to remain within budget constraints. Babcock's latest images show a reduction of 24 to 12 Sea Ceptor cells.

The Type 31 frigate in view | Save the Royal Navy

While hopefully the upcoming SADR will see increased funding across UK defence, I remain unconvinced that either the cash or political will exists to reverse the steady erosion of numbers and capability seen in recent decades.
Hahahaha - rapidly heading for
"....fitted for but not with....."
... the very definition of floating targets
MB
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Type 31 is being pitched at the constabulary tasks - right now, we're sending T45's to go chase drug smugglers and do counter piracy missions - and 31 will be fine for those. 12 cells isn't much to play with but you could still shoot down some 3rd world air forces in one engagement so I'm not full of despair at the announcement.

31 will have a radar and CMS that's pretty good, it's a big box with plenty of space and it's likely cheap to run because of the lower manning requirements, it's got the right set of options for anti swarm tactics..I'm feeling a bit more happy about the program than I was.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
31 will have a radar and CMS that's pretty good, it's a big box with plenty of space and it's likely cheap to run because of the lower manning requirements, it's got the right set of options for anti swarm tactics..I'm feeling a bit more happy about the program than I was.
I quite agree with this. I'm not entirely sure why "fitted for but not with"*is considered to be so offensive an option. Given the role that the T31 is intended to play it appears capable, and given the size and space still available it should be a lot easier to "option up" if the geopolitical situation gets worse than building more ships from scratch in a hurry. There are other advantages to FFBNW, in that if you don't need a capability now, you don't need to pay now for equipment which in 5 or 10 years might well be obsolescent or obsolete.

The trick is, of course, knowing when it's time to buy, and have the public and polity ready to pay the piper before it gets too late.

oldsig

* not suggesting that T31 is FFBNW anything in particular, just that the added size and volume can be treated in a similar fashion
 

swerve

Super Moderator
IMHO this is a reasonable article highlighting the usefulness of carrier aviation from a UK POV. The STOVL capable F-35B will almost certainly see several other nations getting into the naval aviation game, something which was not feasible for many nations had they been limited to STOBAR and especially CATOBAR carriers.
What have aircraft carriers ever done for us? | Save the Royal Navy
Three countries other than the UK got into carrier aviation because of the Harrier, & a fourth went for Harriers on carriers when its old cat & trap carrier & aircraft combination became too obviously obsolete (& the aircraft were wearing out). That was feasible for many countries which didn't bother. I'm not sure how many new shipborne fighter users the F-35B might produce. So far, one new user (Japan) has gone for it - & two have given up either their Harriers, or their carrier, without replacement. Another has gone for STOBAR on its new carriers.
 
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