The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

This may help...

RFA Tidespring – another refit behind schedule? | Save the Royal Navy


Unfortunately, from within the shipbuilding circles that I work in, I had heard similar stories. Use of commercial build vessels is often a difficult thing for UK personnel to understand, as the quality is often very different from the almost bespoke finish to the majority of the UK RN fleet. However, knowing that the intent was always that the hulls would be manufactured elsewhere, the vessels sailed to the UK & then the 'limited weapons & comms fit-out' would be fitted in the UK, it is only to be expected that between the contract being placed & the vessels arriving in the UK, that some of the fit-out would have changed, with the knock on effect of delays. As stated earlier the fact the SK shipyard where the vessels were built went into meltdown & was bought out / saved by another business helped with the delays (circa 18 months, IIRC).

IMHO (& experience over the last 20 odd years) change happens on a regular basis across the fleet, as newly approved systems are deemed 'important', or as is often more the case, that someone within the customer community deems that a specific change needs to happen.

UK RN are very fortunate as a customer, in that they are treated differently to other navies across the planet.Similar things are not that regular across the globe, as once a contract is signed / agreed, the navy will only get EXACTLY what they have asked for. Any change over & above baseline design is at the cost of the Navy, often with protracted contract negotiations & lengthy time delays to boot.

I’m surprised that there are 7 frigates in refit or awaiting refit at Devonport (your link).
I’m not sure how many T45s are currently active but considering the total number of hulls this is a shocking state of readiness for the RN.
What are all the crews doing or has the RN denuded the escorts to man the carriers or has recruitment plunged?
I don’t want to be critical as I thoroughly loved my time on exchange with the RN in the late 70s but the fact of having less than ten active escorts is catastrophic for Britain on multiple levels

 

[StobieWan]

Interesting comment on another forum from a friend of mine, apparently the PoW crew are getting some briefs on "how we got here" by someone who's been with the project a long time and a presentation was delivered this week regarding cats and traps.

Apparently the original design had been intended to be easily convertible between STOVL and CATOBAR *for steam catapults*

That option went away when the last manufacturer of new build steam cats closed their line after the French either cancelled or failed to place an order for said items for the now defunct PA2 program. With that in mind, the amount of work involved in switching to EMALS/AARG was considerable, including a lot of disruption to deck 2 and apparently the slides showing what needed to be reworked painted a picture of a fairly large effort.

 

[oldsig127]

Interesting comment on another forum from a friend of mine, apparently the PoW crew are getting some briefs on "how we got here" by someone who's been with the project a long time and a presentation was delivered this week regarding cats and traps.

Apparently the original design had been intended to be easily convertible between STOVL and CATOBAR *for steam catapults*

That option went away when the last manufacturer of new build steam cats closed their line after the French either cancelled or failed to place an order for said items for the now defunct PA2 program. With that in mind, the amount of work involved in switching to EMALS/AARG was considerable, including a lot of disruption to deck 2 and apparently the slides showing what needed to be reworked painted a picture of a fairly large effort.

Sounds odd. As I understand it the ships were never going to be able to use steam catapults the moment the design was firmed with gas turbine engines. EMALS was a possibility and briefly planned in about 2010, until the massive cost of change in an environment when construction was already deliberately being slowed to save money became obvious.

oldsig

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting comment on another forum from a friend of mine, apparently the PoW crew are getting some briefs on "how we got here" by someone who's been with the project a long time and a presentation was delivered this week regarding cats and traps.

Apparently the original design had been intended to be easily convertible between STOVL and CATOBAR *for steam catapults*

That option went away when the last manufacturer of new build steam cats closed their line after the French either cancelled or failed to place an order for said items for the now defunct PA2 program. With that in mind, the amount of work involved in switching to EMALS/AARG was considerable, including a lot of disruption to deck 2 and apparently the slides showing what needed to be reworked painted a picture of a fairly large effort.

.

I recall something about a UK design for a EMALS but I guess it didn’t go anywhere after the F-35B decision. Must be immense pressure on HI and GA to get the USN’s EMALS working properly and that needs to include servicing a failed unit without having to shut down the remaining working units!

 

[Systems Adict]

I’m surprised that there are 7 frigates in refit or awaiting refit at Devonport (your link).
I’m not sure how many T45s are currently active but considering the total number of hulls this is a shocking state of readiness for the RN.
What are all the crews doing or has the RN denuded the escorts to man the carriers or has recruitment plunged?
I don’t want to be critical as I thoroughly loved my time on exchange with the RN in the late 70s but the fact of having less than ten active escorts is catastrophic for Britain on multiple levels

In the link I posted, it does make reference to the '7 frigates in refit or inactive'. However, the link below provides a fuller (if a little negatively biased), opinion...

Minister tells head of the Royal Navy to make increasing warship availability a priority | Save the Royal Navy

 

[Systems Adict]

.

I recall something about a UK design for a EMALS but I guess it didn’t go anywhere after the F-35B decision. Must be immense pressure on HI and GA to get the USN’s EMALS working properly and that needs to include servicing a failed unit without having to shut down the remaining working units!

This article may help expand this very discussion point...

Cats, traps and claptrap. Why the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers operate VSTOL aircraft | Save the Royal Navy

 

[John Fedup]

This article may help expand this very discussion point...

Cats, traps and claptrap. Why the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers operate VSTOL aircraft | Save the Royal Navy

An excellent article that fairly assesses the QE saga. Had the CATOBAR option been taken up, its main advantage would be the ability to use the Hawkeye and the somewhat better range of the F-35C. Cost was the driver for VSTOL but as it turned out the EMALS reliability is an even better driver IMO. I think the USN is going to incur a huge charge to get it right. Given the tight tolerances electromagnetic tech requires, I don’t think the USN and GA are looking forward to the eventual shock trials.

Question, were steam catapults ever a consideration for a potential QE CATOBAR carrier? Would the waste heat from the two MT30s be able to provide sufficient steam? I believe the nuclear option was rules out early.

 

[t68]

An excellent article that fairly assesses the QE saga. Had the CATOBAR option been taken up, its main advantage would be the ability to use the Hawkeye and the somewhat better range of the F-35C. Cost was the driver for VSTOL but as it turned out the EMALS reliability is an even better driver IMO. I think the USN is going to incur a huge charge to get it right. Given the tight tolerances electromagnetic tech requires, I don’t think the USN and GA are looking forward to the eventual shock trials.

Question, were steam catapults ever a consideration for a potential QE CATOBAR carrier? Would the waste heat from the two MT30s be able to provide sufficient steam? I believe the nuclear option was rules out early.

The UK were looking at EMCAT a UK designed system,

Whatever happened to - EMCAT - Think Defence

Trump was talking earlier in the year of going back to steam but that also creates its own problems within the ford class design

Why Trump asked the Wasp’s crew ‘electric or steam?’

 

[John Fedup]

Yes, the EMCAT was the system I read about sometime ago and couldn’t remember. Perhaps it could make a comeback as an alternative to GA. As for the Ford steam conversion, same expensive issues for doing this with an added twist, I think the company making steam catapults ceased production when France didn’t commit to a new carrier several years ago.

 

[Stampede]

This article may help expand this very discussion point...

Cats, traps and claptrap. Why the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carriers operate VSTOL aircraft | Save the Royal Navy

An excellent overview on this subject.

I wonder in hindsight if the Royal Navy would have been better served with three F35 B capable LHD's .
Rather than two massive 60 000 Tonne ships; three Juan Carlos / Trieste sized vessels may have being more financially realistic.
Suggest also would have being cheaper to both purchase and crew.
While not as capable as a large dedicated aircraft carrier for dedicated fixed winged operations, this alternative may have served the RN better in the range of Amphibious / Aviation capabilities it offered, as an option to government.
Trying to find the correct mix of ships for the RN in the decades ahead and realistically fund and crew them will be a challenge.
I'm guarded in the expectation how the QE11 class will fit in with this mix, unless some significant funds are allocated to the RN to get the balance right.

That said, the QE 11 will look impressive in a foreign port, showing the flag with a full deck of aircraft.


Regards S

 

[seaspear]

In regard to detection by sensors would it be more prudent to upgrade the Sampson sensors
SMART-L - Wikipedia
extending the range of detection of the vessels escorting the carriers could be just as important as flight coverage of aircraft providing this but cheaper perhaps and more consistent

 

[oldsig127]

Question, were steam catapults ever a consideration for a potential QE CATOBAR carrier? Would the waste heat from the two MT30s be able to provide sufficient steam? I believe the nuclear option was rules out early.

As per my post 12823, no. Once nuclear was ruled out and gas turbines in, there's simply no source of sufficient steam. There waqs a brief moment in 2010 when EMALS was specified but the sheer cost of late change and the unclear status of EMALS made it a non flier, so in the midst of all the other delays there was yet another "all change" moment and bakc to using F-35 the RN/RAF went

oldsig

 

[ngatimozart]

In regard to detection by sensors would it be more prudent to upgrade the Sampson sensors
SMART-L - Wikipedia
extending the range of detection of the vessels escorting the carriers could be just as important as flight coverage of aircraft providing this but cheaper perhaps and more consistent

You've been on here long enough to know that Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source. Have you actually looked at the sensors the QE II class and the Type 45, Type 23 and Type 26 classes use?

 

[seaspear]

I have viewed some of the specification s the type 26 is not expected in any version to have the Thales S1850-M radar the type 23 of course has the Artisan system .The Thales 1850 -m installed on the Daring class as I understand was developed by Thales

my query was if the similar derivitave in the Dutch navy was able to be upgraded very simply could the Daring class
Thales SMART-L MM Radar Installed on HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën Frigate - Naval News
SMART-L Radar (The Netherlands and Others) – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance
The above articles suggest a simple upgrade for ships with this type of sensor

 

[ngatimozart]

The Type 26 in RN service will have Type 997 Artisan 3D search radar, which has a published range of ≥ 200 m → > 200 km. In RN service it is an ASW frigate not an AAW frigate so that suggests that RN CONOPS don't see the requirement for the SMART L on the Type 26. However, if they do change their minds they may go with the upgraded variant the SMART L MM, which is the AESA variant and capable of ABMD. At the present point in time it appears that the only SAM missiles that the RN will be shipping aboard the Type 26 is the Sea Ceptor, so any radar other than the Artisan would appear to be superfluous in the UK MOD & probably RN eyes.

 

[seaspear]

I hope I havent confused you but my suggestion was for the Daring class anti air warfare destoyer to have its Radar upgraded to extend its range
MBDA Aster 30 Block 1 NT Missile Passed Preliminary Design Review - Naval News
The R..N has expressed an interest in the Aster 30 bi 1nt which is believed capable of intercepting ballistic missiles up to 1500 kilometres
There have been published articles previously on the modifications of the Daring class https://www.janes.com/images/assets/877/48877/maritime_ballistic_missile_defence_in_a_UK_context.pdf
The present Sampson sensor carried on the Daring class claims to track targets to 400 kilometres so perhaps being able to increase such a range would present more warning for supersonic missiles ,its been many years since Ive read more detailed information on radars and sensors ,Im not the expert thats why I asked the question here of those who are

 

[StobieWan]

Sounds odd. As I understand it the ships were never going to be able to use steam catapults the moment the design was firmed with gas turbine engines. EMALS was a possibility and briefly planned in about 2010, until the massive cost of change in an environment when construction was already deliberately being slowed to save money became obvious.

oldsig

There are other means of generating steam than steam turbines and adequate space was reserved from the get-go to use an auxiliary boiler for that purpose.

 

[Systems Adict]

I hope I havent confused you but my suggestion was for the Daring class anti air warfare destoyer to have its Radar upgraded to extend its range
MBDA Aster 30 Block 1 NT Missile Passed Preliminary Design Review - Naval News
The R..N has expressed an interest in the Aster 30 bi 1nt which is believed capable of intercepting ballistic missiles up to 1500 kilometres
There have been published articles previously on the modifications of the Daring class https://www.janes.com/images/assets/877/48877/maritime_ballistic_missile_defence_in_a_UK_context.pdf
The present Sampson sensor carried on the Daring class claims to track targets to 400 kilometres so perhaps being able to increase such a range would present more warning for supersonic missiles ,its been many years since Ive read more detailed information on radars and sensors ,Im not the expert thats why I asked the question here of those who are

I've read thru from post #12831 to 12836.

& I am a little 'confused'...

The BAE Sampson & the Thales S1850M (SMART-L), are VERY different radars, designed for very different tasks & in comparing them you are effectively drawing an analogy similar to trying to compare a 1930's Bentley Blower & a 2016 Dodge Hellcat. Both cars have big engines, equipped with a blower, to provide a boost to overall horsepower & effectively speed, both are cars with x4 wheels / brakes / seats etc. but they differ greatly.

The same can be said for the radars.

Sampson Multi Function Radar | BAE Systems | International

Sampson radar - UK pursues at-sea missile defence capabilities


BAE's Sampson..."is the primary surveillance and dedicated tracking sensor on the Royal Navy’s Type 45 destroyers. It’s fully software-configurable and features adaptive digital beamforming techniques to combat clutter and high electronic counter measure environments.

Able to simultaneously detect and track hundreds of targets, Sampson is compatible with both active and semi-active homing missile systems, providing mid-course guidance. It supports fully automatic operation where rapid reaction is required."
Based on the data from Google searches, it can track out to 400Km (as you have eluded to).


http://www.thales7seas.com/html5/pr...tasheet_SMART-L_DS121_10_10_H_nw_stijl_HR.pdf

The SMART-L is also able to provide data from 400Km away, but by having both on the Daring class, each source can be used independently for different tasks.

I also have a perception that the antenna's work differently from each other (Phased array versus 'standard' radar transmission waves). I am no expert in the field, but understand the basic principles relating to radar transmission / reception, so perceive that they work slightly differently.

I believe that BAE used the knowledge & experience gained from SAMPSON to develop Artisan, in a similar way to the way Thales developed SMART-L to SMART-LMM.

While it is appreciated the the SMART-LMM is a derivative / improvement on the SMART-L, I don't believe that it justifies 'upgrading' the Daring class, to remove Sampson, to effective fit a 2nd SMART-L. By the same token, I don't believe that it would be cost effective to upgrade the Daring's to SMART-LMM.

Modern radars utilise greater computational analysis, in comparison to 'older' variants of radar & it is the software that can take the information it receives, using algorithms to predict plots / positional data / speed / range of tracks, etc. & output it into a digital format, quicker than older analogue systems. This simplified explanation, may help explain why systems like AGEIS, are still in service with other navies, as the computing power behind the radar antenna is constantly being upgraded / developed.

SA

 

[StobieWan]

An excellent overview on this subject.

I wonder in hindsight if the Royal Navy would have been better served with three F35 B capable LHD's .
Rather than two massive 60 000 Tonne ships; three Juan Carlos / Trieste sized vessels may have being more financially realistic.
Suggest also would have being cheaper to both purchase and crew.
While not as capable as a large dedicated aircraft carrier for dedicated fixed winged operations, this alternative may have served the RN better in the range of Amphibious / Aviation capabilities it offered, as an option to government.
Trying to find the correct mix of ships for the RN in the decades ahead and realistically fund and crew them will be a challenge.
I'm guarded in the expectation how the QE11 class will fit in with this mix, unless some significant funds are allocated to the RN to get the balance right.

That said, the QE 11 will look impressive in a foreign port, showing the flag with a full deck of aircraft.


Regards S

The RN already has LHD's in service - if you could only afford one or the other then there might be some merit to the suggestion but when the RN already has that capability, the argument was really over whether to build 3 smaller carriers or two larger ones.

 

[StobieWan]

I hope I havent confused you but my suggestion was for the Daring class anti air warfare destoyer to have its Radar upgraded to extend its range
MBDA Aster 30 Block 1 NT Missile Passed Preliminary Design Review - Naval News
The R..N has expressed an interest in the Aster 30 bi 1nt which is believed capable of intercepting ballistic missiles up to 1500 kilometres
There have been published articles previously on the modifications of the Daring class https://www.janes.com/images/assets/877/48877/maritime_ballistic_missile_defence_in_a_UK_context.pdf
The present Sampson sensor carried on the Daring class claims to track targets to 400 kilometres so perhaps being able to increase such a range would present more warning for supersonic missiles ,its been many years since Ive read more detailed information on radars and sensors ,Im not the expert thats why I asked the question here of those who are

I suspect the RN will be looking more at upgrading it's data links with other assets, in particular the F35, which in exercise has been very successful in tracking SR and IRBM's at long ranges. That gets the sensors above the curvature of the earth and deep into enemy territory, allowing the actual shooter to engage at range.