The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

The original plan was for a GP version of the Type 26, but it'd still have had the silencing & other expensive features of the T26 which make it desirable for navies wanting a high end ASW or ASW-capable ship, but not for those seeking a cheaper GP ship.

Whether Type 31e is a good idea for the RN is debatable - very debatable - but it's not a question of someone suddenly realising that the RN was buying 13 ASW specialised ships & deciding to order GP ships in place of five of them, but which GP ship to buy, & whether they could be bought more cheaply. Whether it'll be competitive on the export market is also very uncertain, but there does seem to be demand for ships in that category.

The Type 26 build schedule is bizarre, & I have no explanation for it.

I wonder if they should go with Babcock / OMT Arrowhead design for the T31, which is based on OMT Iver Huitfeld FFG already in service with the RDN. Most of the heavy lifting has been done and more importantly there already has been significant derisking. It can be FFBNW so that if necessary can have upgraded weapons and sensors capabilities similar to the T26. Using the same systems such as the Mk 45 5" gun, Sea Ceptor, Mk 41 VLS, and CMS as the T26, where possible, gives advantages and synergies of commonality. As long as the RN, MOD and pollies don't get bright ideas about bespoke systems unique to the T31, because, these bright ideas just drive costs up. Whilst they won't use the Danish STANFLEX system, as long as they stick to the OMT build philosophy and design, the ship will still be modular enough to allow for relatively easy and less expensive changes and upgrades over time.

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting how senior former officials critize decisions long after leaving office. The time to critize is during the decision process when it being made and to resign if one disagrees, not easy to do but if this were to happen more often, stuff wouldn't hit the fan quite as much.

In the case of the RN's carriers, UK members can perhaps offer some views on the carrier decision but given the UK's financial crunch (if this is in fact the case), it would appear either the SSBNs or the carriers but not both.

MoD will rue the day it spent £6bn on new aircraft carriers, says former defence chief

 

[John Fedup]

So continuing on with the above, Jeremy Hunt wants to see the defence budget doubled to 4% of GDP so I guess that makes carriers and SSBNs both possible with money to spare....good luck with that Jeremy.

Jeremy Hunt 'wants to double defence spending' as he calls on UK to project more hard power

 

[Systems Adict]

I wonder if they should go with Babcock / OMT Arrowhead design for the T31, which is based on OMT Iver Huitfeld FFG already in service with the RDN. Most of the heavy lifting has been done and more importantly there already has been significant derisking. It can be FFBNW so that if necessary can have upgraded weapons and sensors capabilities similar to the T26. Using the same systems such as the Mk 45 5" gun, Sea Ceptor, Mk 41 VLS, and CMS as the T26, where possible, gives advantages and synergies of commonality. As long as the RN, MOD and pollies don't get bright ideas about bespoke systems unique to the T31, because, these bright ideas just drive costs up. Whilst they won't use the Danish STANFLEX system, as long as they stick to the OMT build philosophy and design, the ship will still be modular enough to allow for relatively easy and less expensive changes and upgrades over time.

I understand the sentiment in the synergy savings that could be made utilising 'old equipment' from the likes of T23 / to marry up with Type 26, but I am of the opinion that none of the x3 variants offered by any of the x3 suppliers are suitable to accept Mk 45, 5 inch gun.

The reality will be that UK Mod will have to accept a NEW gun to their inventory, with the likelihood that it will be x1 of the following :


76/62 SUPER RAPID - Leonardo Company


57mm Naval Gun System | BAE Systems | International

They may not be as big as the 5 inch, but their RoF (with 100+ rounds/minute), should help make up some of the difference.

SA

 

[StobieWan]

The original plan was for a GP version of the Type 26, but it'd still have had the silencing & other expensive features of the T26 which make it desirable for navies wanting a high end ASW or ASW-capable ship, but not for those seeking a cheaper GP ship.

Whether Type 31e is a good idea for the RN is debatable - very debatable - but it's not a question of someone suddenly realising that the RN was buying 13 ASW specialised ships & deciding to order GP ships in place of five of them, but which GP ship to buy, & whether they could be bought more cheaply. Whether it'll be competitive on the export market is also very uncertain, but there does seem to be demand for ships in that category.

The Type 26 build schedule is bizarre, & I have no explanation for it.

I think it's slightly amusing that the 31e was formulated as an export idea, at which point the much more expensive type 26 became the runaway rock star export success. I know all the builds are going overseas but it's still slightly funny.

 

[StobieWan]

So continuing on with the above, Jeremy Hunt wants to see the defence budget doubled to 4% of GDP so I guess that makes carriers and SSBNs both possible with money to spare....good luck with that Jeremy.

Jeremy Hunt 'wants to double defence spending' as he calls on UK to project more hard power

Jeremy Hunt has made his way into rhyming slang He's also famous for telling everyone that immigration wouldn't change post brexit despite the fact that it had been a campaign corner stone so I'd treat anything he says with either a measure of caution or just outright contempt depending on how much coffee you've had.

At the rate we've been spending money on ferry contracts for ferry companies that have never ran a ferry service, I suspect doubling defence spending will only happen if Putin carpet bombs Birmingham with Backfires.

 

[John Fedup]

In other words, sadly, just another self-serving pollie. We have lots of them too!

I think it's slightly amusing that the 31e was formulated as an export idea, at which point the much more expensive type 26 became the runaway rock star export success. I know all the builds are going overseas but it's still slightly funny.

Overseas builds yes but UK companies will be getting significant business from the Hunter and CSC builds. These programs should make it easier for a few UK T26 export orders for countries wanting a higher end frigate, albeit this is likely a small number.

 

[spoz]

I understand the sentiment in the synergy savings that could be made utilising 'old equipment' from the likes of T23 / to marry up with Type 26, but I am of the opinion that none of the x3 variants offered by any of the x3 suppliers are suitable to accept Mk 45, 5 inch gun.
SA

That's an interesting comment considering that there are already a couple of A200s fitted with a 5 inch gun (admittedly the Italian version) while there are plenty of the earlier design fitted with both that and the Mark 45, and both Babcock and Cammell-Laird explicitly state that their designs can accept guns up to127mm. Do you have any supporting data?

 

[ASSAIL]

I think it's slightly amusing that the 31e was formulated as an export idea, at which point the much more expensive type 26 became the runaway rock star export success. I know all the builds are going overseas but it's still slightly funny.

The problem being that no one knows what the T31e will be, how could buyers consider until the RN settles on a design. T26 has been around for over a decade giving plenty of time to evaluate.
The success or otherwise of T31e will not be realised for a further decade.

 

[oldsig127]

MoD will rue the day it spent £6bn on new aircraft carriers, says former defence chief

Former Army Officer slates "Overspending on Navy and Airforce" Shocker

Comes under the "He would say that, wouldn't he?" rubric.It might be right,but he's far from a disinterested party

oldsig

 

[StingrayOZ]

T26 had customer input as well. Apparently RAN requests were one of the reasons it grew so much in displacement. RAN had some input into the design. It was always going to get the attention of the Au, CA. How many are planned to be built? 35+? It will be the most numerous ship since the Burkes. Three production lines in three nations.

T31e as I understand it is for smaller nations that would probably want a UK build. But what and who that is is not very clear. Middle east? Saudis? Qatar? But honestly is that really a market these days? And its likely your not going to pitch what they want. Which is why IMO the type 31e has flounded as a project.

IMO the strength and momentum is with the Type 26 program. They would be better calling it the Type 26e.. Hit up New Zealand, Brazil (werent they buying 6?), Singapore. Even if you have to cut back to german levels on the actual weapon systems.

 

[KiwiRob]

I think it's slightly amusing that the 31e was formulated as an export idea, at which point the much more expensive type 26 became the runaway rock star export success. I know all the builds are going overseas but it's still slightly funny.

Technically they haven’t exported any T26’s, the designed has been sold but no vessels built in UK yards will be exported to other countries as of now.

Which T31E they will order hasn’t been decided on, once that’s known they will start offering it to anyone looking for a low to mid range frigate.

 

[Systems Adict]

That's an interesting comment considering that there are already a couple of A200s fitted with a 5 inch gun (admittedly the Italian version) while there are plenty of the earlier design fitted with both that and the Mark 45, and both Babcock and Cammell-Laird explicitly state that their designs can accept guns up to127mm. Do you have any supporting data?

My 'supporting data' is 2 decades of experience in shipbuild & repair, nothing else. The guns I quoted have considerably smaller deck footprints & deck/hull penetration than larger guns like 4.5" Mod1 or MK 45. The statement is 'My Opinion' & I'm very happy to be proved wrong as I'm sure that some navies will only consider those hull types if they have the bigger gun.

 

[StingrayOZ]

IMO there is a huge difference between a 5" and a 57mm/76mm. The 5" has proven very useful, has a significant range and power and there is a large set of support and ammunition types including longer range already available. ROF IMO doesn't make up. These days accuracy is more important than ROF.

 

[Unric]

Horses for courses isn't it? 5'' is much better for land support and large anti-surface while 76 and 57 are probably more suited to anti-air and swarm attacks?

 

[StingrayOZ]

5" was a popular anti-air round in ww2. The whole 4.5 verse 5 per shell effectiveness argument against aircraft.

I think it would be a mistake to put a single 57mm on combat frigate and assume its going to handle significant air threats. RAM or ESSM or CAMM are more realistic options, and a proper CIWS is going to provide a proper layered defence.
Then it also really limits your land and surface capability. I doubt they will be fitting Tomahawk onto these, so you are likely to be lumped with 57mm being your everything round.

Given the shortage of units in the RN (and other export nations looking at small buys) going forward, and the future threats, and the role of frigates, dropping 4.5" and going 57 or even 76mm would seem to be a big step backwards.

As antiquated as the gun is, its still the weapon most commonly used and operated. Its cheap. It can do many roles. Its effective. For the UK to introduce yet another round would be expensive, and knocking out the 5" would limit exports and credibility.

Again, who are you targeting with exports?

If you can fit a 5", you can fit a smaller gun, but some navies will need a 5". If you can't support a 5" then you are really in the small ship club, which is a heavily contested market place. That is going to be a place where a UK build will loose.

 

[John Fedup]

Agree, a 57 mm gun on a frigate is too small for larger surface targets. I recall a video where the USN/RCN sank an old tribal class destroyer. The Halifax class frigate's 57 mm gun really wasn't up for the job nor were bombs dropped from CF-18 Hornets. A torpedo from a SSN split the ship in two and she sank in a couple of minutes. Still, the 57 mm is a good gun for smaller surface vessel targets and AA. The RCN should recycle these guns to the DeWolf class.

 

[ngatimozart]

I see that the new UK SEC DEF has warned the UK Treasury that she will be fighting for more funding from them and they will not like it. But she said that they will hear the message that UK defence requires more money for critical defence needs. One thing that puzzles me is why is she wearing dolphins?

New UK defense chief draws a line in the sand on military funding

 

[John Fedup]

She is still a navy reservist but as for why the dolphins, not sure but perhaps showing her support for the Dreadnought class.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Honory. At a sub function.
Still, I imagine the services are hopeful about her. At least she comes across as an advocate.