The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

CdnDefWriter

New Member
I'm sorry, I haven't missed your point. You suggested moving the quad pack from Lancaster to another T45, and as I've explained, while it sounds practical, it's not economically viable.

It's not quite 'plug-&-play' and there's a serious amount of re-engineering of the internals of a T45 to make it fit (System is IPMD not FBNW ). That aside, not every FF/DD that the RN has needs it fitted, as Harpoon is a finite resource.

SA
Or is it more a case of MoD not wanting to publicly acknowledge reality and the actual status of both ships?

A Ministry of Defence spokesperson, said that the Royal Navy was meeting its commitments from “the Baltic Sea to the Gulf” and that “HMS Dauntless and HMS Lancaster are not mothballed and remain very much part of the fleet.”
 

The Ginge

New Member
Or is it more a case of MoD not wanting to publicly acknowledge reality and the actual status of both ships?

A Ministry of Defence spokesperson, said that the Royal Navy was meeting its commitments from “the Baltic Sea to the Gulf” and that “HMS Dauntless and HMS Lancaster are not mothballed and remain very much part of the fleet.”
Its a confluence of circumstances.

1. The MOD don't have enough Sailors to man all the surface combatants, so park up your 2 most obsolite,a T23 which as not been through its Mid Life Refitt and your T45 with the most problems.
2. You don't want to make it look like there mothballed so you leave all the kit on them, paint them etc so they may look ready to rumble but as we all know looks are decieving.
3. We've got no money so if you want to achieve 2 you might as well not spend it stripping things of the T23 to confirm that in fact they are mothballed.
4. Same goes for T45 Turbine/Diesel Refitt if we had money that T45 would be the first through the system, but park her up and you can push back the expense to another year.

Across the armed forces untill the Government realises we are never going to balance the books through austerity (note another Deficit Total missed for the 6th Year Running) with deminishing Tax returns because people are going from well paid PAYE jobs to being Self Employed or a Contractor and can avoid income tax easily, that the only option is to raise income tax or remove all the Self Employed/Contractor offsets you are allowed to increase the money comming in to the Treasury. Then the Armed forces be they Navy, Army or RAF are going to be short of money and having to make more decisions like this.
The armed forces as feared are being holllowed out and Gearge & Dave are hoping they can just keep fooling the Public a little longer until they are out of office. Leaving the next incumbant to explain to the British People why we have no effective Armed Forces and face the full furry of the people. By which time these two clowns will be esconced in the House of Lords.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I get what u mean tho .... How is it not viable for a 5th T45?
The Eng work and design calc's are already figured out from the 4 other T45s they have fitted or will be fitting the Harpoon sets (confirmed: HMS Duncan; Daring & Diamond as 3 of 4 T45 (out of 6) selected so far) from decom T22 Batch 3s.
So if HMS Lancaster is unlikely to deploy much before decom, how is it economically viable to Not utilize a duplicate Harpoon system that otherwise is just wasted sitting in harbour?
It makes no sense Not to utilize it and put it on the 5th deplorable T45. Even the MoD bean counters surely realize this?
And hopefully the New First Sea Lord Adm Sir Philip Jones would also realize and push for this.
Maybe not quickest transfer, but T45s will be in service for quite a while of the foreseeable future.

Just sayin from lay mans point of view.
Otherwise a pure waste of an on-hand resource.

And leaves potential for all Harpoon-equipped ships: hopefully 12 T23 & 5 T45 to be upgraded to Harpoon Mk II w\ land attk capability as our Cdn Navy Halifax class are currently undergoing and have demonstrated with successful attack of practice land target.
I'm sorry, you are either looking at this way too simply, or cannot see the wood for the trees.

I will attempt to lay this out in the easiest way I can...

#1 - UK PLC doesn't have the cash to fit the kit.

YES, we have set's of equipment available, but on T45 - IPMD means that it CAN NOT be installed until the ship goes into a deep maintenance period as the ship has to be altered internally, cable runs & equipment added, etc, etc.(literally torn apart !)

Without the cash to do it, there is no point !

#2 - The RN DO NOT have enough sailors to man their ships.

No manpower means it's cheaper to put ships into 'extended readiness'.

It sound harsh, but those two facts alone, are actually saving money & manpower, as they will be needed to bolster the x2 carriers. It may also explain some of the sentiment behind the news feed / article below....

BAE Systems workers issue job cuts warning - BBC News


SA
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I get what u mean tho .... How is it not viable for a 5th T45?
He actually explained why it's not viable in the first post - quick summary, if it's sitting on a ship that's tied alongside, it's got a cost associated with it in terms of having some security and DC provided to it. That's spread across the entire ship. If you take the launchers off and then fit them to another ship, that costs real money at a point they're trying to save money and therefore is a Bad Thing.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is exactly what the Australian government was doing in mid 2000s. They where caught out by a self inflicted crunch of poor retention, inadequate training infrastructure, poorly planned and executed upgrades and modernisations, deferred maintenance, delayed replacement, poor or even cancelled procurement decisions, low risk appetite combined with very poor understanding of the risks. Basically the very institutions and establishments that were required to provide the critical advice and guidance to avoid the crunch had been gutted in a misguided efficiency (cost cutting) exercise several years earlier.

The RAN is yet to recover from the cuts of the mid 90s and the operational (near) collapse of the late 2000s it caused. The worst part of the situation is political revision of the root cause of the problem has led to some of the same mistakes being made (or almost made) again, with short sighted individuals blaming those hamstrung by the decisions of the past rather than resourcing them to fix thing, or acknowledging the successes in getting things back on track.

I fully anticipate that in the UK should things not have been fixed by the next election it will be swept under the carpet, only to be brought out and blamed on a new government down the track. The perpetrators are often very proficient at blaming others for the issues they caused because they have a better understanding of what they did to cause the problems in the first place, making it very easy to snipe at the poor sods assigned to fix things.
 

CdnDefWriter

New Member
I'm sorry, you are either looking at this way too simply, or cannot see the wood for the trees.

I wwill attempt to lay this out in the easiest way I can...

#1 - UK PLC doesn't have the cash to fit the kit.

YES, we have set's of equipment available, but on T45 - IPMD means that it CAN NOT be installed until the ship goes into a deep maintenance period as the ship has to be altered internally, cable runs & equipment added, etc, etc.(literally torn apart !)

Without the cash to do it, there is no point !

#2 - The RN DO NOT have enough sailors to man their ships.

No manpower means it's cheaper to put ships into 'extended readiness'.

It sound harsh, but those two facts alone, are actually saving money & manpower, as they will be needed to bolster the x2 carriers.
SA
Actually, with all due respect, I fully get and understand both your points, especially the funds and personnel issues - especially in regards to Lancaster (same issues plague the RCN), except your T-45 IPMD reference under #1 which I will deal with after. Yes they don't have the cash - tho they could maybe shuffle some funds from those amounts allocated to the varied 'assertiveness/flavour-of-the-day' programs & useless executive retreats that seem to be endemic in both Canadian and UK defence ministries. (ie. As an example, a few year back a Cdn DND civil servant executive level retreat for mental wellness or some similar nonsense came to light at a time when actual front line capabilities such as TOW/Eryx ATGM & ADATS were being cut to save a few paltry yearly dollars. The dichotomy is just Insane!) Especially since the UK MoD is in full-on Denial in regards to “HMS Dauntless and HMS Lancaster are not mothballed and remain very much part of the fleet.”

And 'Ginge' I fully agree with all 4 of your points.

As to "T45 - IPMD means that it CAN NOT be installed until the ship goes into a deep maintenance period as the ship has to be altered internally, cable runs & equipment added, etc, etc.(literally torn apart !)."

A post earlier this year by 'Quil or Capture' [ https://quillorcapture.com/2016/01/29/the-t45-awaiting-rescue/ ] is very informative.
"The current scheduled maintenance, one that boat four (Dragon) will emerge from later this year as boat five (Defender) takes its place, will add communications upgrades, among other work. Each T45 will spend around a year in dock during this time.

Additionally, the UK Ministry of Defence stated to this writer recently that they could find no spare Harpoon launchers down the back of the sofa and that HMS’ Defender and Dauntless will just have to go without.

Four other vessels in class, Daring, Diamond, Duncan and Dragon, have been or will be fitted with the missile system taken from the decommissioned T22s during the aforementioned maintenance."


It not only clarifies which ships have or will be fitted with ex-T22 Harpoon launchers: HMS Daring, Diamond, Duncan & Dragon, it notes that the only other T45 still operational (and not laid up like Dauntless) is Defender which is heading into year-long scheduled deep maintenance later this year once Dragon is finished. This would tend to fully address the T45 IPMD issues you noted as Defender will be ideally placed to receive Lancaster's Harpoon equipment during scheduled deep maintenance. Thus, giving 5 operational T45 equipped with Harpoon.
Does this not sound perfectly logical, funding issue aside?

And in regards to the comment by 'StobieWan', what does the cost for having Lancaster sitting alongside have to do with the above, those noted costs will not change, except for the one-off infusion of funds required to remove the equipment and transfer it to Defender?
Having equipment just sitting there on Lancaster (Harpoon) which will likely never be used again seems like an even bigger waste of money that has already been expended to buy said equipment?

Now if only the First Sea Lord, or somebody with similar clout, could push for some funds reallocation or a one-off infusion from Treasury and maybe release a statement asserting:
'To maximize the utility of existing equipment, from time to time some limited reallocations of existing equipment on Her Majesty's ships will be undertaken from those ships in temporary extended readiness, so as to maximize value to the taxpayer from investments in said equipment
',
even if it is a one-time happening ;)

One would hope that somebody with clout in MoD would realize that this makes perfect sense :confused:
To not provide the needed funds would do a disservice to the RN!

But hey, I'm just a lowly civilian independent defence writer who has intently followed defence matters over the past 30+ yrs and even managed to do a well received lead-in to an article by Lord Robertson who was then defence minister, plus 2 UK SDR analysis articles at that time (which all received a bravo zulu well done from the UK defence attaché in Canada) in a government circulated Canadian Defence magazine. Yup, I'm a cheeky bugger which is why I tend to disagree with the way Politicians tend to treat the Military as an unwanted non-vote-getting ministry for funds, plus tend to loose respect for senior military officers who seem to cater to said politicians to either advance career or post-career defence industry employment while the best interests of their branch is conveniently set aside.

Therefore, I will defer to those in service as I am probably somehow just not seeing the wood for the trees. Did I miss something blatantly obvious over the years?
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Look, let me give you a real world example. My garage door is f*cked. And it is. A friend of mine is getting his replaced for something more flash. He's happy to give me the door he's having taken off, so all I'd have to do is pay for delivery or hire a van, and then pay to have it installed.

Great. Logically, there is no reason I should not fit that door. Unless I can't afford the van hire and installation, in which case, I can't do it. Maybe I need to get the car serviced or buy a season ticket for work travel or whatever.If I don't have the money, it's not possible.

Take out "garage door" and replace with Harpoon, and you're there.

Why did I mention the costs of Lanc's tied alongside? For the simple sake of completeness.

Can the work be programmed into existing schedules? No, that work is set up some time in advance (the QE's major rework schedule is already soaked up fro the next several years for instance, and she's not even commissioned.

Taking Harpoon off Lancs and putting it onto a T45 will cost some money and there is no money to spare. I'll await your next and inevitable "but...*why* can't it be done" reply...
 

CdnDefWriter

New Member
Look, let me give you a real world example. My garage door is f*cked. And it is. A friend of mine is getting his replaced for something more flash. He's happy to give me the door he's having taken off, so all I'd have to do is pay for delivery or hire a van, and then pay to have it installed.

Great. Logically, there is no reason I should not fit that door. Unless I can't afford the van hire and installation, in which case, I can't do it. Maybe I need to get the car serviced or buy a season ticket for work travel or whatever.If I don't have the money, it's not possible.

Take out "garage door" and replace with Harpoon, and you're there.

Why did I mention the costs of Lanc's tied alongside? For the simple sake of completeness.

Can the work be programmed into existing schedules? No, that work is set up some time in advance (the QE's major rework schedule is already soaked up fro the next several years for instance, and she's not even commissioned.

Taking Harpoon off Lancs and putting it onto a T45 will cost some money and there is no money to spare. I'll await your next and inevitable "but...*why* can't it be done" reply...
Ok, ok, I think I get it now.
Just needed bat on head few times haha. :smash

I'm in similar boat with tight finances, I get it.
(Defence writing has never paid well lol, but I will never become a news industry minion lol.)

No funds and 'Zero Political will' to make it happen.

Though, as to scheduling, if there was the will to find the finances then it can be made to happen, especially since there is layoffs in the ship industry and obviously spare capacity.
Heck, during the Falklands war a lot of 'extra' unscheduled work was made to happen, irregardless of scheduled/unscheduled.
Just needs the Political will to get it done.

I just don't like accepting situations that just don't need to be like this. Or in other words, just doesn't make logical sense.

Cheers m8 :eek:hwell
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What's IPMD stand for?
IPMD - Installation provision made in design. Basically room to fit the capability, but little more done to enable it's installation.

Fitted for but not with includes mounting provisions, (fitting points, plates etc) electrical and data interfaces, cooling and so forth.

;)
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Oh, and as to possible Bae job losses in Scotland.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-clyde-yards-arent-losing-800-jobs/

"Many news organisations have reported that there could be up to 800 redundancies from Clyde shipyards, this doesnt seem to be accurate."

Media hype yet again, hence why my opinion of uninformed media in general ain't to high. :rolleyes:

Media hybe..?

"Mibes aye, Mibes Naw", as they say in Glasgow...

As a Scotsman, who works within the UK Defence Industry, I am MORE than happy to see this come to a fore.

However, I am sickened that this is, as ever where politicos are involved, being used yet again, as 'a point' to be scored in the up-coming elections.

Tweets from all parties over the weekend pointing fingers at each other, visit's to shipyards so they get 2 seconds more on tv, stating I have done more & care more than THEM, when one is as bad as the other.

But, this isn't a forum for politics, so lets leave that there...

SA
 

chis73

Active Member
Quite a fascinating House of Commons Defence Committee hearing last week on the Type 26 delays and the engineering issues in the Type 45 (particularly the WR-21 intercooled gas turbine). Two former First Sea Lords, plus representatives of BAe, Rolls-Royce & GE. Essential viewing for marine-engineering junkies.

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee

Kudos to the Committee for being able to discuss such a complex subject so intelligently. As an observer in NZ I can only marvel at the calibre of the UK's politicians.

I think the chances of the Type 26 serving in the RAN have taken a serious dive (given the timing pressures RAN are under).

For the UK, could a crash build programme for new Type 23's be an answer - considering that they are at least already designed?
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Quite a fascinating House of Commons Defence Committee hearing last week on the Type 26 delays and the engineering issues in the Type 45 (particularly the WR-21 intercooled gas turbine). Two former First Sea Lords, plus representatives of BAe, Rolls-Royce & GE. Essential viewing for marine-engineering junkies.

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee

Kudos to the Committee for being able to discuss such a complex subject so intelligently. As an observer in NZ I can only marvel at the calibre of the UK's politicians.

I think the chances of the Type 26 serving in the RAN have taken a serious dive (given the timing pressures RAN are under).

For the UK, could a crash build programme for new Type 23's be an answer - considering that they are at least already designed?
Yes, it is quite interesting. It does illustrate the impacts that short-sightedness by pollies and treasury mandarins can have on a force structure. It also illustrates some of the pitfalls of trying to do too much to quickly wrt new technologies.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yes, it is quite interesting. It does illustrate the impacts that short-sightedness by pollies and treasury mandarins can have on a force structure. It also illustrates some of the pitfalls of trying to do too much to quickly wrt new technologies.
Yes, sure hope our pollies are taking note. The meeting was actually quite informative with regards to the Type 45's IEP system. The discussion of testing the WR-21 recuperation system after the redesign by the NG at the USN's request was most interesting, especially considering the USN dropped out of the WR-21 program. Also, the meeting pointed out the difficulties of trying to test a complex "system of systems". Many of the IEP's problems only became known under real-world conditions at sea. Although higher temperature operation resulting in lower turbine power output was known, for some reason it was not known this would trip out the IEP system leaving the ship at the mercy of two undersized diesel generators which couldn't handle the load. Anyways, hopefully this all gets sorted.

The Type 26 discussion was a bit of a mystery to me. The BAE rep avoided the question of whether the delay was due to money or design issues. The MT-30 based IEP is being used on the QEC carriers and the Zumwalt destroyer. I assume there are differences compared to the Type 45. Interesting that the Type 26 has a CODLOG specified (MT-30 and four MTU diesel generators).

WRT introducing many new technologies at the same time, this was kind of necessary for IEP. In hindsight the LM-2500 would have been less risky than the WR-21 but sometimes you have to support the home team (RR). Also, the USN was supporting its development for the most part. With lasers and electric rail gun on the horizon, future ships will need increasing generator capacity making IEP the best bet.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
For the UK, could a crash build programme for new Type 23's be an answer - considering that they are at least already designed?
We need something with margins - I don't think Type 26 is enough of a step forward anyway but going back to 23 with no margins at all for growth would not tick many boxes. 23 was meant to be a cheap and cheerful TSA tug with no air defence and a couple of optically trained guns, post FI, it grew into a decent GP frigate but that growth soaked up everything spare in the design.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If that thing was presented to the RN of old it would not survive first base. A glorified OPV is not what the RN needs, the U.K. is not a third tier power and no longer needs Gunboats to roam the colonies:(
 
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