The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
Sorry, but the Points are pretty - erm - Pointless. They are a PFI but they will not transfer what is left of our light-infantry. If the focus was Cunard/Carribean then I'd expect the QM and QE will be cruising.... :smash
Pretty well used in Iraq.

To condemn them for being unable to carry our light infantry is to miss their point. They're meant to carry heavy equipment, & supplies to maintain those light infantry, & anything accompanying them such as armour & artillery, once they're ashore. They're perfectly designed for that.

No point landing a load of troops if once they're ashore you can't supply them.
 

Repulse

New Member
UK party conference silly season - The Evening Standard is suggesting that the UK could keep both carriers by sharing one with th US (e.g. US / UK planes flying jointly from same platform)... Why would the US want to do this routinely...? Maybe the USMC if they don't get the F35B, but even that seems a very big stretch...
 
Defence

Defence cuts: Our forces, brought to their knees
Military cuts and job losses are ruining morale in the Armed Forces and harming Britain’s defence capability.

Wings clipped: a drop in orders for the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, pictured at RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire, has led BAE to cut 3,000 jobs Photo: PABy Neil Tweedie, and Sarah Rainey
7:30AM BST 01 Oct 2011
47 Comments
When Lord West, former First Sea Lord and security minister in the Brown government, waved the flag for Britain last week, reminding the world that we are still a country to be reckoned with and “not like bloody Denmark or Belgium”, he presented Liam Fox with a gaping open goal. West, the Defence Secretary crowed, was guilty of crass insensitivity and should apologise. What about those plucky Danes in Afghanistan?

The old admiral, who had his ship sunk under him in the Falklands, may indeed have been less than diplomatic towards, let’s face it, two of our less weighty Nato allies, but everyone knows what he’s getting at. Britannia may have ceded rule of the waves to Uncle Sam sometime around 1943, but the United Kingdom has so far managed to cling to upper second division status in the global military league.

America, that creaking giant, still occupies the premier league on its own, with a defence budget matching the rest of the world. Then it’s the Chinese, then us and the French jostling for third place, with a bunch of old and new contenders – such as Russia, Japan, India and Brazil – breathing down our necks. So, yes, Britain should still be taken seriously as a military and military-industrial power (we are second only to America in arms exports), but for how long?

For how long, also, will the morale of the Armed Forces endure – on which Britain’s vaunted military excellence depends – in the face of £20 billion of cuts that are deemed vital by David Cameron and George Osborne?

No doubt Fox and his boss in Downing Street will wrap themselves in red, white and blue at the Conservative conference in Manchester this week, reminding the audience about who helped liberate Libya. But as they do so the P45s will be winging their way to the barracks, some to men and women who have no wish to give up what is more a way of life than a job.

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Britain’s Armed Forces have become used to cuts – reviews they call them in the Ministry of Defence – but the latest round of redundancies and equipment losses, combined with cuts in defence manufacturing, threatens an irreversible decline in Britain’s ability to project military power and produce weapons.

The current blood-letting, known as the Strategic Defence and Security Review, involves slashing some 14,000 Army posts by 2020 and 5,000 Navy and 5,000 air force positions by 2015, leaving an Armed Forces establishment of just 140,000. The first tranche of Army and Royal Air Force redundancies have already been announced, and last week it was the Royal Navy’s turn. Roughly 1,020 officers and men are to leave the Senior Service in the first round, some 350 against their will. In addition, another 25,000 MoD civilian employees are to lose their jobs.

The defence industry, which directly employs 121,000 people in the UK, is expected to lose about 40,000 jobs in the next four years as projects are cancelled, scaled back or completed. Last week saw some 3,000 redundancies at BAE Systems factories in Lancashire and on Humberside as military aircraft production is reduced. British manned aircraft production could have ceased entirely by the end of the decade, together with the manufacture of heavy armoured vehicles and military helicopters.

“We have not seen anything like this since the end of the Second World War,” says Tim Ripley of Jane’s Defence Weekly. “By the end of the decade, under the plan envisaged by the Coalition government, the ability of the British Armed Forces to engage in sustained high-intensity combat will be greatly diminished. The Army, for example, will be merely a specialised counter-insurgency and peacekeeping force, equipped with only token armoured units. Mass manufacture of key defence hardware, ships, jets and tanks, will have ended. By design or accident Britain’s 'hard’ military power will be a thing of the past.”

The cost in morale is more subtle but becoming clear. The MoD runs something called the Armed Forces Continuous Attitudes Survey that monitors opinion in the ranks. Findings published this month make bleak reading. When asked how they rated morale in their service, only 18 per cent of all servicemen considered it high, while 44 per cent thought it low. Worst was the Royal Air Force: only nine per cent of airmen judged morale in the RAF to be high, against 62 per cent thinking it low. Only nine per cent of Royal Navy personnel thought morale high in their service, compared with 56 per cent for low.

Even more worrying were the figures for officers. Just 10 per cent of all commissioned servicemen thought morale high, compared with 55 per cent saying it was low. A minuscule two per cent of RAF officers believe morale was high, as opposed to 70 per cent in the “low” camp. The figure for naval officers was six and 59 per cent respectively. The Army produced a more positive outcome but pessimists still easily outnumbered optimists.

Graham Edmonds served 42 years in the Navy before his retirement in 2009. “Morale in the Royal Navy has plummeted,” he says. “The Treasury hates people because they are expensive: salaries, accommodation, pensions, national insurance. The easiest way to save money is to get rid of people.

“For the Navy, it is very depressing. Back in the 1980s many people in government had Armed Forces’ experience, and of war. Their decisions reflected that. Now, we have a government and a bunch of MPs who have no military experience.

“People in the Armed Forces are profoundly angry that their lives can be put on the line by incompetent and off-the-cuff decision-making. The Army is depressed, the RAF is fed up and the Navy aghast.”

Capability is going the way of jobs. Long-range maritime reconnaissance has gone with the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4, battlefield surveillance will be lost with the early retirement of the Sentinel aircraft, and air defence of fleet, post-Harrier, resides almost solely on half a dozen Type 45 destroyers which, despite their £1 billion-a-piece price tag, have no long-range land-attack or anti-ship missile capacity.

Mr Fox has tried to blame these cuts on the over-ambitious procurement policy of Labour, and on the chronic incompetence of the MoD and service chiefs when buying equipment. There is truth in this but the price is being paid by ordinary servicemen and their families, facing a harsh economic landscape in civilian life. Many of those losing their jobs in uniform over the coming years would have found work in the defence industry, but that path is now being closed to them.

Kim Richards, head of the association that represents naval families, says in an address to members: “It isn’t just a job; it is a way of life. As a family, leaving service-provided accommodation, looking for a new home, moving to a new area, children changing schools, hunting for jobs, finding a GP and dentist may have to be on your radar over the next 12 months. It may seem daunting.”

Commander Nigel “Sharkey” Ward, a former Fleet Air Arm pilot who flew the Sea Harrier to great effect over the Falklands, is more direct. “The three services are in a state of 'lockdown’ at the moment at the behest of our less-than-illustrious Prime Minister, who wishes to hide completely illogical and damaging decisions from the public. What has happened has destroyed morale in the Armed Forces.

“We have a partly political, rotten game going on. All the lads can see it; all the officers and all the men – these good guys who put their lives on the line. Some would be much better off out of the services and away from this stupidity, this almost complete lack of loyalty.”

Not Belgium yet. But some would say we’re getting there.

Defence cuts: Our forces, brought to their knees - Telegraph

The damage made by this coalition governement to the british armed forces is substantial.
 

Troothsayer

New Member
Ah, overlander is back with his usual mo.

I'm sure most people would be able to see through all the hysteria and agendas in that article from opposition ministers who ran up a £38mn overspend at the MoD. And please, as much a hero as he was... anyone quoting Sharkey Ward immediately invokes a red flag

Which of these countries that are supposedly overtaking us have just launched 6 state of the art destroyers, are building 2 of the biggest ships ever built for the RN - which the government have now announced they have funding for btw, are in the process of building 7 new SSN's and starting preparatory work on a successor SSBN?

Please, what is it about the UK which makes people think its military exists in some kind of dream world where budgets and finance is no problem and doesn't matter?
 

riksavage

Banned Member
I see the usual suspects have been dragged out of their caves in the Torygraph articale - Sharkey and West. I was surprised they only mentioned the Falklands once! Fortunately the predicted new head of the RN is a straight talking realist who plans to look forward to 2020 instead of looking back all the time. West is contaminated in my view, he was Labour's patsy - part of the problem not the solution during the last governments atrocious track record on defence spending.

Considering Fox inherited a bow wave of procurement costs in dire economic times I think he's done a pretty good job thus far, at least he's grabbed the bull firmly by the horns and not kicked projects into the long grass for then next government to deal with. He couldn't keep salami slicing projects and needed to take some tough decisions to cut & scrap, If it hadn't been GR9/Ark it would have been Tornado and IMHO the decision to keep Tornado (combined with what Typhoon offers and Apache can bring to Amphib ops) it was the right decision under the circumstances until the F35C arrives.

Over the next 10-15 years the RN will be regenerating much of the fleet, either through upgrades (T23) or new builds (SSN's, T26, QE's). If and when things improve there's nothing stopping the Gov ordering new batches from BAE - they will have regenerated their skills from top to bottom following the Astute/T45/QE & T26 programmes.
 

welsh1

New Member
Considering Fox inherited a bow wave of procurement costs in dire economic times I think he's done a pretty good job thus far, at least he's grabbed the bull firmly by the horns and not kicked projects into the long grass for then next government to deal with. He couldn't keep salami slicing projects and needed to take some tough decisions to cut & scrap, If it hadn't been GR9/Ark it would have been Tornado and IMHO the decision to keep Tornado (combined with what Typhoon offers and Apache can bring to Amphib ops) it was the right decision under the circumstances until the F35C arrives.

Over the next 10-15 years the RN will be regenerating much of the fleet, either through upgrades (T23) or new builds (SSN's, T26, QE's). If and when things improve there's nothing stopping the Gov ordering new batches from BAE - they will have regenerated their skills from top to bottom following the Astute/T45/QE & T26 programmes.
my issues with the RN's future plans is not what is coming online, realistically its a pretty impressive list. the issue for me is that its great providing that the RN's tasks/commitments are reduced.

the new ships will be more capable, but numbers are going to be a issue if things don't change. my worry is that as things stand trainning may suffer and that it will not take too much to spread the navy too thin.
 

imperialman

New Member
A couple of new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier images appeared on the BAE website! Sadly since I only have 3 posts and are unable to post the link. Do a Google search for "bae systems multimedia gallery" and navigate the menu on the left to the carrier images.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
A couple of new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier images appeared on the BAE website! Sadly since I only have 3 posts and are unable to post the link. Do a Google search for "bae systems multimedia gallery" and navigate the menu on the left to the carrier images.
Here you go: BAE Systems

Nice CGI of the Cat & Trap QE class....
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
my issues with the RN's future plans is not what is coming online, realistically its a pretty impressive list. the issue for me is that its great providing that the RN's tasks/commitments are reduced.

the new ships will be more capable, but numbers are going to be a issue if things don't change. my worry is that as things stand trainning may suffer and that it will not take too much to spread the navy too thin.
On the bright side, it'll be a pretty balanced fleet without the distortion of trying to meet the cold war objectives of securing the resupply routes to Europe and it'll be a smaller fleet of more modern, more flexible ships. I'd sooner have more of 'em but it's still going to be a world class Navy with bags of scope to be expanded if the economy *ever* gets better. That's not bad for a titchy island off the coast of Europe.
 

imperialman

New Member
They appear to be similar to the one that was released in November, I'd guess that they're part of the same set and for whatever reason, only got released recently.
 
Ah, overlander is back with his usual mo.

I'm sure most people would be able to see through all the hysteria and agendas in that article from opposition ministers who ran up a £38mn overspend at the MoD. And please, as much a hero as he was... anyone quoting Sharkey Ward immediately invokes a red flag

Which of these countries that are supposedly overtaking us have just launched 6 state of the art destroyers, are building 2 of the biggest ships ever built for the RN - which the government have now announced they have funding for btw, are in the process of building 7 new SSN's and starting preparatory work on a successor SSBN?

Please, what is it about the UK which makes people think its military exists in some kind of dream world where budgets and finance is no problem and doesn't matter?
The carriers are being built simply because contractuals penalties made not rentable to cancel them but this was the intention of the coalition government and still I have not heard about a b plan if they cancelled them, the number of 19 escorts is totally unacceptable for a country surrounded by the sea, the cancellation of the carrier strike capability until at least 2020 demonstrates that cuts have not limit in defence budget, navies like Italy Spain or Austrlia are improving their capabilities with the construction of new carriers/LHD,s meanwhile Britain will emerge in 2014 with only 1 modest LPH, furthermore alkl reports suggest that the 13 type 23 frigates will not be replaced in a 1 by 1 basis maybe only 9 of them will be built, so what you need to worry about this ?? what is the limit of the cuts for, 15, 13, 11 escorts ?? As we have seen there is not a limit.
For you is not important that France with a GDP similar to the british is now by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe ?? when the R.N. has been for centuries the most powerful navy of Europe.
Countries like mine Spain with a unemployment of 22 % and a catastrophic finantial and economic situation maintain the carrier capability and are able to deploy more than 25 harriers anywhere if necessity, in major countries like Italy or Spain trhere red lines in defence capablities that are not possible to pass, as I can see in Britain there are no limit concerning to axe military capablities.
Do you think is normal that after these massive cuts the british army firepower is now down the italian or spanish armies ??
Ok if you prefer to close the eyes is your problem and don,t say to me say to your government they are doing these massive cuts not me or press correspondents.
Concerning to the carriers yes they are being buiilt enforced by the contracts but in 5. 7 or 10 years we will see if they will be bully equipped with a decent airwing or maybe in the best situation they will make like before with the invincibles, 1 in refit/resrve and 1 opertional.
I have no doubts that as soon as finantial situation allows to it France will build a second carrier wich will be fully equipped and with a powerful airwing and they will maintain fully operation the 2 carriers most of the time like they made ti the clemenceau and foch, we will see in 10 years what is the british carrier strike capability, I hope the best but let me to be pessimistic watching the current panorama.
Sorry for my bad english.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The carriers are being built simply because contractuals penalties made not rentable to cancel them but this was the intention of the coalition government, thenumber of 19 escorts is totally unacceptable for a country surrounded by the sea, the cancellation of the carrier strike capability until at least 2020 demonstrates that cuts have not limit in defence budget, navies like Italy Spain or Austrlia are improving their capabilities with the construction of new carriers/LHD,s meanwhile Britain will emerge in 2014 with only 1 modest LPH, furthermore alkl reports suggest that the 13 type 23 frigates will not be replaced in a 1 by 1 basis maybe only 9 of them will be built, so what you need to worry about this ?? what is the limit of the cuts for, 15, 13, 11 escorts ?? As we have seen there is not a limit.
For you is not important that France with a GDP similar to the british is now by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe ?? when the R.N. has been for centuries the most powerful navy of Europe.
Countrties like mine Spain with a unemployment of 22 % and a catastrophic finantial and economic situation maintain the carrier capability and are able to deploy more than 25 harriers anywhere if necessity, in major countries like Italy or Spain trhere red lines in defence capablities that are not possible to pass, as I can see in Britian there are no limit concerning to axe military capablities.
Do you think is normal that after these massive cuts the british army firepower is now down the italian or spanish armies ??
Ok if you prefer to close the eyes is your problem and don,t say to me say to your government they are doing these massive cuts not me or press correspondents.
Concerning to the carriers yes they are being buiilt enforced by the contracts but in 5. 7 or 10 years we will see if they will be bully equipped with a decent airwing or maybe in the best situation they will make like before with the invincibles, 1 in refit/resrve and 1 opertional.
I have no doubts that as soon as finantial situation allows to it France will build a second carrier wich will be fully equipped and with a potent airwing, we will se in 10 years what is the british carrier strike capability, I hope the best but let me to be pessimistic watching the current panorama.
Sorry for my bad english.
I'm not sure what your point is - yes, the UK is making deep and aggressive cuts in public spending, as will every other country in Europe in the near future. Germany just took out their entire submarine capability, and they have a couple of ships they only bought due to cancellation penalties.

Holland is busy trashing their fixed wing strike and has binned their heavy armour.

The list can go on if you like - it's not pretty but the reality of it is all military strength springs from economic wealth. And if our credit rating takes a battering, we're going to struggle to get our deficit down.

I'm not sure where you get your faith that France is certain to build PA2 - I suggest you read the history of CdG and think back over the timeline to date on PA2. During the period the French got into looking at the CVF design, buying into that, then reworking it in a series of paper studies, we've actually *built* the core of two carriers.

No idea where the comment about the French navy being "much bigger" - it's heading to the point where they'll be of similar sizes for first time in a long while. When we get through this, we'll have a balanced fleet, including a fixed wing strike capability that'll be in the top five, maybe top three in the world.

Surface fleet will sit at 19 capital ships as escorts, anything less or more is speculation. You can't argue on the basis of the most pessimistic rumours and then rather blithely assume the French will finally spring into life and buy a replacement for the CdG, it's unfounded speculation again, and in fact is very dependent on the election results for France as I believe there's little sympathy for a further carrier in the opposition's eyes.

Bluntly, you're trolling..


Ian
 

Padfoot

New Member
The carriers are being built simply because contractuals penalties made not rentable to cancel them but this was the intention of the coalition government and still I have not heard about a b plan if they cancelled them, the number of 19 escorts is totally unacceptable for a country surrounded by the sea, the cancellation of the carrier strike capability until at least 2020 demonstrates that cuts have not limit in defence budget, navies like Italy Spain or Austrlia are improving their capabilities with the construction of new carriers/LHD,s meanwhile Britain will emerge in 2014 with only 1 modest LPH, furthermore alkl reports suggest that the 13 type 23 frigates will not be replaced in a 1 by 1 basis maybe only 9 of them will be built, so what you need to worry about this ?? what is the limit of the cuts for, 15, 13, 11 escorts ?? As we have seen there is not a limit.
For you is not important that France with a GDP similar to the british is now by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe ?? when the R.N. has been for centuries the most powerful navy of Europe.
Countries like mine Spain with a unemployment of 22 % and a catastrophic finantial and economic situation maintain the carrier capability and are able to deploy more than 25 harriers anywhere if necessity, in major countries like Italy or Spain trhere red lines in defence capablities that are not possible to pass, as I can see in Britain there are no limit concerning to axe military capablities.
Do you think is normal that after these massive cuts the british army firepower is now down the italian or spanish armies ??
Ok if you prefer to close the eyes is your problem and don,t say to me say to your government they are doing these massive cuts not me or press correspondents.
Concerning to the carriers yes they are being buiilt enforced by the contracts but in 5. 7 or 10 years we will see if they will be bully equipped with a decent airwing or maybe in the best situation they will make like before with the invincibles, 1 in refit/resrve and 1 opertional.
I have no doubts that as soon as finantial situation allows to it France will build a second carrier wich will be fully equipped and with a powerful airwing and they will maintain fully operation the 2 carriers most of the time like they made ti the clemenceau and foch, we will see in 10 years what is the british carrier strike capability, I hope the best but let me to be pessimistic watching the current panorama.
Sorry for my bad english.
Hmm.

Didn't the UK defence secretary just lambast the Europeans for cutting defence too much(below 2%of GDP), including France?

Spain is cutting its defence at an alarming rate, will be around $9.6bn pa by 2015. This compares with around $60bn for the UK.

France the 'by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe'? lol with only 3 AWDs. Yes they have a big carrier(that sometimes works)but soon Britain will have two. I can't see anywhere else that the French navy outclasses the RN.

Seriously, what are you smoking?
 

Repulse

New Member
Hmm.

Didn't the UK defence secretary just lambast the Europeans for cutting defence too much(below 2%of GDP), including France?

Spain is cutting its defence at an alarming rate, will be around $9.6bn pa by 2015. This compares with around $60bn for the UK.

France the 'by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe'? lol with only 3 AWDs. Yes they have a big carrier(that sometimes works)but soon Britain will have two. I can't see anywhere else that the French navy outclasses the RN.

Seriously, what are you smoking?
Minor point, but I believe France has 4 AWDs, though 2 are old Cassard designs. However, I do agree that the RN does have the edge in most areas still (AWD, ASW, MCM, SSNs, SSBNs and auxiliaries). Probably on par with amphibious capability. Where we obviously lack is naval aviation capability / capacity, plus we do not have tier two escort / patrol vessels.

QE class will more than make up the aviation difference (even if one is not converted and remains a LPH). What I want to see is the RN seriously look at is tier two escort / patrol vessels - MHPC may go some way but not far enough in my view.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Minor point, but I believe France has 4 AWDs, though 2 are old Cassard designs. However, I do agree that the RN does have the edge in most areas still (AWD, ASW, MCM, SSNs, SSBNs and auxiliaries). Probably on par with amphibious capability. Where we obviously lack is naval aviation capability / capacity, plus we do not have tier two escort / patrol vessels.

QE class will more than make up the aviation difference (even if one is not converted and remains a LPH). What I want to see is the RN seriously look at is tier two escort / patrol vessels - MHPC may go some way but not far enough in my view.
I suggest overlander reads the French Navy's fact book for this year which compares top tier Navies before making comments about RN vs the French. Also remind me again how many attack submarines Italy, Germany and Spain have?

Cherry picking platforms is easy, to me it's about all round capability and power projection. How often do the French, Germans, Spanish and Italians send task forces east of suez complete with the full range of combatants ( subs, amphibs, destroyers, frigates et al)?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Overlander has an obsession with trashing the RN. He's predicted that the QEs would be cancelled before building began, cancelled in building, sold on completion, etc. I think he predicted the disposal of one LPD & two or three Bays.

This says it all, really. Just because of one aircraft carrier & some Floreals . . .
... France with a GDP similar to the british is now by far the biggest and most powerful navy of Europe ??
My emphasis.
 
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