I do see a merger, will it create a monopoly, not really, the UK can always threaten too have some other nation build ships for them, if the company gets too greedy, or, break it up via the monopoly's commission.. if they can not play "ball". We do not export major warships, nor submarines, the policy to cut and cut the RN is flawed. Tax money pays for the RN, however, its so small now, i see the tax money being more a direct investment in the little but very high end industry. The people wanting too be the leaders of the UK need to put money back into the defences services and frankly stop letting too many other nations outside the UK get major contracts ( yes un-pc there). The type 23 ( new radar, new sonar, new helo, block 2 sea wolf) gots plently of life 6 T-45's is better than none (i;d argue for no less than 10), subs, carriers, amphibs are looking okay (for now)..
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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overlander
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- #302
Reports Say That Cvf Could Be Cancelled
if british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) and builders don,t agree before this summer the long delayed project will be cancelled, senior officers declared, read press reports in www.beedall.com
if british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) and builders don,t agree before this summer the long delayed project will be cancelled, senior officers declared, read press reports in www.beedall.com
contedicavour
New Member
I wouldn't be pessimistic. It's probably a tactic to ensure decisionmaking is speeded up.
cheers
I agree, there will be no cut in the carrier program, its at the heart of expodisionary warfare..Moreover, consolidation does need to happen in the UK ship biulding industry, then, with managment and the political will it may have a better future. I still like too see more T-45 DDG's, more than 6 any how.
contedicavour
New Member
On the Type 45 I doubt the RN will have more than 6 ... it would probably be better to focus all efforts on developing a heir to FSC, eventually a downgraded Type 45 without Sampson but better ASW.
cheers
I couldn't find any new press reports in this link which was last updated on 8 November last year. Is this the right link overlander?
Cheers
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Beedal said he suspects a decision on 7 & 8 won't be taken until towards the end of the year. It would certainly be easier then once CVF has been approved - Treasury will have "got over" having to authorise the large amount of money for the carriers by then.
I do not forsee FSC heir too have anything in common with T-45. It will be a totally new design with a possible modular element, probably about 6000T which is fairly standard for next generation FFG's in western european nations. I would say this, i would love co-production with the French on there 5200T tumblehull trimarage.
overlander
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- #309
dear Tasman, go to www.beedall.com click on carrier strike, later on latest news and you will see different press reports about the cvf program, i think the last it,s dated 20 february, greetings.
Thanks very much overlander. I've now found the reports. I'm still optimistic that the CVFs will go ahead. But it is a slow torture waiting for final approval and even more importantly the signing of the contract.
Cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Don't expect this to materialize (on the French side at least) for a long time... priority is to build as many as possible of the planned 17 FREMM. The design you have in mind is for export or for approx 2025 when the 5 Lafayettes will have to be replaced.
cheers
...FSC (Future Surface Combatant), was originally to be the replacement to the Duke Class, Type 23 frigates. I believe that the idea came to fruition in 1998 / 1999, as the last batch of 3, T-23's where being constructed.
Since that time, sooo many things have changed in the world, not least the available budget to produce a batch of ships & the ever onward advance of technology.
Several ideas were looked at, & that the VT / Qinetiq trimiran concept demonstrator "MV Triton", was actually an attempt at "hedging the bets", while also proving the cabability of the hull form.
From various concepts, FSC was going to be anything from 95M - 140M in length, and anywhere between 2000 & 4500 GRT, so that it would be a comparable replacement to the T-23.
The other key factor in the FSC program was also to get away from the past habit of planning the ship type, it's outfit of systems, then ripping the idea to shredds & starting again, so that 20 years are spent before the first hull actually hits the water !!
From comments made elsewhere in the forum, I'm actually surmising that the FSC concept is turning into a "dead-duck", in preference to the S2C2 program.
The S2C2 idea seems to have more room for natural development & growth, while fitting in with current gov't cost schedules & the consolidation of the shipbuilding industry.
However, the UK elections in May could swing the political powerbase, but it's still too early to comment.
Otherwise, I should state that my comments above are mainly based on my own train of thought, so would appreciate any constructive / corrective criticisim, so that I'm not spouting complete twaddle....
Thanks again
Systems Adict.
Since that time, sooo many things have changed in the world, not least the available budget to produce a batch of ships & the ever onward advance of technology.
Several ideas were looked at, & that the VT / Qinetiq trimiran concept demonstrator "MV Triton", was actually an attempt at "hedging the bets", while also proving the cabability of the hull form.
From various concepts, FSC was going to be anything from 95M - 140M in length, and anywhere between 2000 & 4500 GRT, so that it would be a comparable replacement to the T-23.
The other key factor in the FSC program was also to get away from the past habit of planning the ship type, it's outfit of systems, then ripping the idea to shredds & starting again, so that 20 years are spent before the first hull actually hits the water !!
From comments made elsewhere in the forum, I'm actually surmising that the FSC concept is turning into a "dead-duck", in preference to the S2C2 program.
The S2C2 idea seems to have more room for natural development & growth, while fitting in with current gov't cost schedules & the consolidation of the shipbuilding industry.
However, the UK elections in May could swing the political powerbase, but it's still too early to comment.
Otherwise, I should state that my comments above are mainly based on my own train of thought, so would appreciate any constructive / corrective criticisim, so that I'm not spouting complete twaddle....
Thanks again
Systems Adict.
I note with interest in UK press / Janes that BAE is in discussions to sell a possible four T45's to Saudi Arabia. Now the SFO investigation is terminated they (BAE) are back on the circuit selling kit. The T45 will be a huge leap in capability for the Saudi's assuming the ships would be fitted with the same systems as the UK variant (Aster 30/15/Samson combination).
Should this prove successful the impact on the cost for batch 2 & 3 for the UK would be favorable, hopefully resulting in the first four ships (Daring, Dauntless, Diamond, Dragon) being completed for the RN, followed by the Saudi order, then hopefully (fingers crossed) two additional T45's (possibly stretched for tomahawk) for the RN. The gap between the first four and last two allowing for funds to be focused on the carrier strike program.
Should this prove successful the impact on the cost for batch 2 & 3 for the UK would be favorable, hopefully resulting in the first four ships (Daring, Dauntless, Diamond, Dragon) being completed for the RN, followed by the Saudi order, then hopefully (fingers crossed) two additional T45's (possibly stretched for tomahawk) for the RN. The gap between the first four and last two allowing for funds to be focused on the carrier strike program.
overlander
Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #315
where are the 2 "future carriers" ??? when they will be ordered ??? maybe never, who knows about it,
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
There could be an announcement even earlier than that if the ShipCo merger happens late this month/early April. That apparently is the last milestone to be achieved before an order is placed.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
The beancounters are being very careful over CVF. If they allocate the money they're doing so because they're satisified of the conditions. Once that's being spent, they won't want to see billions wasted to save a few pennies at the end.
At the moment, the UK CVF Programme is to all intents & purposes a design study.
Being at this status, while HM Gov't. have spent/invested upto £300M (a not unconsiderable chunk of change), they can still physically say, "We are not amused", & ride off into the sunset, doing a Pontious Pilot hand washing move as they go....
While it's all aparent that the carriers (If produced), will be the backbone of the UK RN till the middle of the 21st Century, like all multi-billion pound contracts, unless the i's have been dotted & t's crossed, so to speak, nothing will happen.
Recent global defence spending fiasco's, such as the US Navy/Marines "A-12" aircraft of the 1990's only go to prove that controls must be in place to stop the juggernauts, as without them, YOUR money (as it is our taxes that pay for these pieces of hardware) ends up in a money pit, lining the pockets of the contractor & the people who are working on these projects.
It is therefore prudent that the armed forces get "More bang for their Buck", before signing off the contract for a "Rolls-Royce" & receiving a "Mini" as the end product.
All that said, I still wish they'ed get their butts in gear, so I can go & build the blasted things. It will keep me employed till I retire !!
Being at this status, while HM Gov't. have spent/invested upto £300M (a not unconsiderable chunk of change), they can still physically say, "We are not amused", & ride off into the sunset, doing a Pontious Pilot hand washing move as they go....
While it's all aparent that the carriers (If produced), will be the backbone of the UK RN till the middle of the 21st Century, like all multi-billion pound contracts, unless the i's have been dotted & t's crossed, so to speak, nothing will happen.
Recent global defence spending fiasco's, such as the US Navy/Marines "A-12" aircraft of the 1990's only go to prove that controls must be in place to stop the juggernauts, as without them, YOUR money (as it is our taxes that pay for these pieces of hardware) ends up in a money pit, lining the pockets of the contractor & the people who are working on these projects.
It is therefore prudent that the armed forces get "More bang for their Buck", before signing off the contract for a "Rolls-Royce" & receiving a "Mini" as the end product.
All that said, I still wish they'ed get their butts in gear, so I can go & build the blasted things. It will keep me employed till I retire !!
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