The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Overlander, when was the last time you posted anything which was not doom & gloom & running down the RN? Have you ever done so? I would like to see some evidence from you that you have any purpose in posting here other than to mock the Royal Navy.

It's a long time since 1588. Get over it.
You are wrong my friend,, who is running down the RN are british politicians not me, I would like a RN stronger bcause this would be good not only for BRITAIN BUT FOR ALL WESTERN DEFENCE It,s not my fault if British politicians are not sensible to defence matters.
 
Overlander, when was the last time you posted anything which was not doom & gloom & running down the RN? Have you ever done so? I would like to see some evidence from you that you have any purpose in posting here other than to mock the Royal Navy.

It's a long time since 1588. Get over it.
Read the post down of yours, this person also wants to run down the R.N. ??

I am a fan of the R.N. long time ago, I have collected photos and books about it, I have posters in my house of British warships, I would like to see the 2 new carriers active and believe me it would be very sad if once again british politicians ignore history and reduce the navy capability, please don,t write more that I run down the R.N. because is not true, many posts in this thread write much worst things than me and you don,t say this about them.
In my opinion the minimum numbers to maintain a global and credible capacity of the navy would be.

2 carriers.
3 ssbn
7 ssn
20 escorts
1 LPH/LHD
2 LPD
4 LSD
At least 10 auxiliaries, including oilers, AOR,s and a replacement for RFA Argus and Diligence

To reduce the navy more than these levels it would be very bad for Britain and NATO itself and I repeat swerve I would like a R.N. even stronger than these numbers but if british politicians decide to cut once again the navy is their fault and responsability not from anybody who write posts here.
Gretings from Hungary from a Spanish fand and supporter of the Royal Navy.
 
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Jon K

New Member
On future British SSN's / SSBN's, why bother with two separate classes? Why not go Block III Virginia-class route and install, say, six Trident tubes to all of them? This would enable all subs to carry a decent land-attack / special forces / mineclearing / whatever equipment and would enable most efficient use of submarine force for deterrent duties.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
On future British SSN's / SSBN's, why bother with two separate classes? Why not go Block III Virginia-class route and install, say, six Trident tubes to all of them? This would enable all subs to carry a decent land-attack / special forces / mineclearing / whatever equipment and would enable most efficient use of submarine force for deterrent duties.
Any future SSBN will be an evolved ASTUTE class, so in effect the RN will be using a standardized platform. The ASTUTE's large size allows for increased numbers of not just weapons, but SF personnel. The large sail is designed specifically for the benefit of the latter. The only issues will be the size of the hull plug to host balistic launch tubes. Britain has a very strong track record when it comes to submarine design, and I'm convinced the ASTUTE's incorporate a lot of unique features based on this heritage (hull shape for one), so why would they go for Virginia class?

The following link shows some very good profile drawings of ASTUTE compared to Collins and Vanguard. The Vanguard is huge, so even with a hull plug the ASTUTE will have a limited carry, down from say 16 to 12, or even 8 vertical tubes.

Shipbucket Astute drawing. - The Royal Navy - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - NavWeaps Discussion Boards - Message Board - Yuku

Based on the assumption that the two QE classes are built I would interested to hear peoples opinion on who they believe will buy any of the Invincible's?
 
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Jon K

New Member
The following link shows some very good profile drawings of ASTUTE compared to Collins and Vanguard. The Vanguard is huge, so even with a hull plug the ASTUTE will have a limited carry, down from say 16 to 12, or even 8 vertical tubes.
Thanks for the answer, I did not certainly mean UK buying Virginias but rather using the US idea of inserting Trident tubes for them instead of single-purposes VLS Tomahawk tubes. I just think that why not give every RN SSN the 8 vertical tubes? This would spread the SSBN commitment further, would enable more flexible deployment and ensure that all SSN's would be able to have a decent land-attack punch. If (and it's still if) the carriers won't get built the RN would still have long-range attack capability via using cruise missiles, with 56 VLS missiles per SSN.

AFAIK, steel is cheap so what's the cost of the missile compartment itself?

Based on the assumption that the two QE classes are built I would interested to hear peoples opinion on who they believe will buy any of the Invincible's?
How about the usual suspects in South America? Chile wouldn't benefit from an ex-RN carrier but this being South America this doesn't matter. Brazil might be quite good candidate. They operate ex-RN ships and a ex-RN Invincible (or why not even two, with one for operational duties and one for spares) would be quite good partner for Sao Paulo. An Invincible could be used as a helo deck for a carrier task force carrying either ASW or marine helicoters (together with whatever light intervention force Brazilians have).

BTW, is it because end of the Cold War that new Western subs are getting sail look more and more like Soviet designs?
 

kev 99

Member
Lack of availability of Harriers in the future means that any sale of Invincible class means they will almost certainly be used in the ASW or LPH role, also Illustrious and Ark Royal will be pretty old by then, Invincible will probably be the least used of the three.
 

Jon K

New Member
Lack of availability of Harriers in the future means that any sale of Invincible class means they will almost certainly be used in the ASW or LPH role, also Illustrious and Ark Royal will be pretty old by then, Invincible will probably be the least used of the three.
Considering that Brazilian Navy currently uses A-4's I think there's a lot of more modern Harriers available.
 

kev 99

Member
There aren't any Harriers available currently and by the time they are they will have run out of flight hours, its not the age of the aircraft its how many miles they've got on the clock that's important.
 

Jon K

New Member
There aren't any Harriers available currently and by the time they are they will have run out of flight hours, its not the age of the aircraft its how many miles they've got on the clock that's important.
Around 400 Harrier II's have been produced, many of them during late Cold War which means many of them have seen very little use. Some of them will be eventually sold, in fact if someone was interested in buying an Illustrious or two I'm certain RAF would be forced to sell some.
 

kev 99

Member
RAF don't exactly have a lot of Harriers to go around and there are currently no plans to sell those they do have, US, Spain and Italy have no plans to sell theirs either.
 

Jon K

New Member
RAF don't exactly have a lot of Harriers to go around and there are currently no plans to sell those they do have, US, Spain and Italy have no plans to sell theirs either.
If the F-35 comes into RAF/RN service the Harriers are superfluous. Also, if there's a commercial opportunity I don't see a reason why Lab-Con cabinet wouldn't sell them in advance.

On the other hand, how many Harriers are already in storage? According to public sources JFH operates 4x9 operational Harriers for a total of 36 aircraft while 67 were originally produced. USMC orderd 215 and operates 99. Certainly not the all aircraft missing have become casualties?
 

kev 99

Member
Harriers in UK service are also being put through the JUMP upgrade programme, by the time the JSF comes into service they will be more or less out of flight time.

A commercial opportunity to sell Harriers in this case means screwing the FAA over when they are looking to work back up, 801 squadron is standing back up next year, if there was any desire to sell Harriers this would not be happening.
 

Jon K

New Member
Harriers in UK service are also being put through the JUMP upgrade programme, by the time the JSF comes into service they will be more or less out of flight time.
How is this possible since the operational squadrons use only roughly half of the Harriers originally procured and they're being put through renovation (GR 7 to GR 9) program which has been finished, what, two years ago?

Of course, thinking about costs of Harrier upgrades one just wonders how much would have been saved if RAF ordered some Super Tucanos to operate over Afghanistan instead but that's a different thread issue altogether...
 

kev 99

Member
How is this possible since the operational squadrons use only roughly half of the Harriers originally procured and they're being put through renovation (GR 7 to GR 9) program which has been finished, what, two years ago?

Of course, thinking about costs of Harrier upgrades one just wonders how much would have been saved if RAF ordered some Super Tucanos to operate over Afghanistan instead but that's a different thread issue altogether...
Just because it appears that only half are being used doesn't mean the rest are just rotting in some shed somewhere, aircraft are rotated through periods of maintenance and activity to preserve their working life instead of just being worked to death.

BTW there are still GR7s in service.

As additional weight to the MOD not being willing to sell of its Harriers there's the multi million pound maintenance contract is signed with BAE for maintenance this year, its very doubtful that any of the MOD's Harriers will be flogged off to until JSF starts entering service.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Around 400 Harrier II's have been produced, many of them during late Cold War which means many of them have seen very little use. Some of them will be eventually sold, in fact if someone was interested in buying an Illustrious or two I'm certain RAF would be forced to sell some.
I can't think of a single Harrier user which expects its Harriers to have enough airframe hours left to be worth selling by the time F-35B replaces them. The main concern of the UK & the USMC is how to keep them going long enough.
 

Jon K

New Member
I can't think of a single Harrier user which expects its Harriers to have enough airframe hours left to be worth selling by the time F-35B replaces them. The main concern of the UK & the USMC is how to keep them going long enough.
Officially the F-35B will come into service in 2012, in real life before 2020. What's the real problem as Harriers are rather underutilized by USMC and RAF due to post-Cold War cuts as shown by numbers? One must remember that there were so many Harriers that RN prematurely retired it's Sea Harriers, some of which were built in 1990's.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Those Harriers aren't "underutilized" (sic). They are being rotated in & out of use to spread flight hours across the fleet, so that there will still be some flyable by the time there are enough F-35 to replace them all.

F-35Bs will not arrive all at once. It will take years for all Harriers to be replaced.

The retirement of Sea Harriers was nothing to do with there being so many Harriers the SHARs were not needed. On the contrary, it has led to a dire shortage of Harriers in British service, leaving none available to deploy with the carriers for over a year. It was for financial reasons.
 

sweeneygov

New Member
HMS Ark Royal has just left Portsmouth following a refit to the Carrier Strike Role. After training and work up she will replace Illustrious next year. A squadron of 8-10 Harrier GR.9s are due to embark in April 2010 so thankfully a few more than what was available last year.

In 2009 when Illustrious was in the strike role doing exercises in the Indian Ocean they only had four aircraft to play with. The remainder were being used in Afghanistan. Apparently now this isn't the case so it allows more of the pilots to get their sea legs back again.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
HMS Ark Royal has just left Portsmouth following a refit to the Carrier Strike Role. After training and work up she will replace Illustrious next year. A squadron of 8-10 Harrier GR.9s are due to embark in April 2010 so thankfully a few more than what was available last year.

In 2009 when Illustrious was in the strike role doing exercises in the Indian Ocean they only had four aircraft to play with. The remainder were being used in Afghanistan. Apparently now this isn't the case so it allows more of the pilots to get their sea legs back again.
mainly due to the harriers being used in AFG. so more harriers are available for ops
 
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