The role of Aircraft Carriers in conflicts

Belesari

New Member
Why have the Russians always gone for cruiser/carriers instead of just plain old fleet carriers? They have always had the surface ships so its not like they needed the other capabilities. I mean the japanese use them because of all the crap in there constitution agaisnt carriers. That and the fact that there carriers...erm Helicopter destroyers make great ASW platforms.

Fleet carriers seem to be better almost all ways......ok as a american i have to say.in everyway.

They dont have to be Super carriers just fleet carriers.
 

godbody

New Member
I would like to know why the U.S. is the only navy with a nuclear power carrier? Looking at all the carriers in the world today not any compare to the side of the U.S. carriers. Why is that ? Just imagine 3 carrier group together and no one can do this but the U.S. The Aircraft Carrier give any navy a big boost to it force. If you study and look at different conflict the U.S. carriers were always there. The role of aircraft carrier is to maintain control of ocean in a conflict. When the time come when you have another country going against the U.S. Navy and they have the same sized CBG what a battle that will be. The role of aircraft carrier is still to control the area that the battle is being conducted.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
With thanks to GF0012 Aust for his help I found this little gem.

Land based air V Carrier borne air and cost and achiements over 40 years, Authors: Admiral Sandy Woodward and Commodore Steve Jermy.

It’s not an in-depth work for which i was hoping, basically a summary of cost and achiements and the basic needs to reinstate HMS Ark Royal and her Harrier aircraft until the Queen Elizabeth class comes on line, how accurate the numbers are and if there is any bias i do not know.
Land-Based Air versus Carrier-Borne Air – Real Costs and Achievements over 40 Years « The Phoenix Think Tank

A little know story (well i did not know anything about it) of the RN came to avert an invasion of at the time British Honduras, goes to show the flexibility of carriers in a well balanced navy.

Phoenix Squadron
The Phoenix Think Tank is evidence that Woodward, Jermy, Sharkey Ward et al are starting to lose their marbles.

I read a few articles, compared some of the 'facts' given in them with reliable sources, & concluded that there is no fact-checking, no checking of calculations, no review - nothing. For a so-called think tank, that's unforgiveable. It's a rather bad joke, which acts only to discredit those who associate themselves with it. I find it sad that people I used to respect have sunk so low. Jermy, in particular, surprises me. Woodward is old enough that his involvement can be attributed to age-related diminution of his facilities, Ward was always more interested in stirring up a stink than the truth, but Jermy struck me as sensible - see, for example, his comments on the British move into Helmand. Ah well.

As for that particular article - well, just check what it says about Tornado IDS operations during the 1990-91 war. It's a total load of bollocks. What it says is just plain false.
In Iraq, eight aircraft were lost but informed sources tell us that only one of these was due to enemy action. The remainder of the losses reportedly resulted from unfamiliarity with the JP 233 delivery profile (three aircraft) as well as ‘finger trouble’ and a basic lack of air warfare munitions expertise.[3]
This is based on an article by Sharkey Ward on that site, & of his claims, only one (the 'laddering' loss) has any truth to it. "unfamiliarity with the JP 233 delivery profile (three aircraft)" is an out-and-out lie. He claims that Tornado crews didn't realise that the aircraft would suddenly gain height when the JP233 was released, & so lost control & ejected. Totally untrue. Only one Tornado was lost after delivering a JP233, & both crew were killed. It is thought it was lost to Iraqi AA.

Four were lost on raids with dumb bombs. One was shot down before release, hit by a SAM which rendered the pilot unconscious: the navigator saved both their lives by ejecting them both. One was the 'laddering' incident (crew ejected, survived), & two went down after successful attacks. Both those crews died in their aircraft, which went down while leaving the target area, apparently shot down by AA. Heavy AA had been encountered over both targets. One was hit by a SAM after dropping an LGB. The pilot ejected both crew, but the navigator was found to be dead, apparently killed by the SAM. The JP233 loss & the last two mentioned aircraft were not subsequently examined by the RAF, but the others were, & the data recorders and/or damage assessment confirmed the cause.

Note the difference between the Phoenix Think Tanks story (3 crews ejected after delivering JP233) & the truth (one crew killed in their aircraft by AA after delivering JP233). Sharkey says his information is from 'a privileged source'. Basically, he says that the RAF investigators, the RAF command, RAF aircrew & armourers have colluded in a lie, but some unattributable person is telling him - and only him - the truth.

No other Tornadoes were lost in combat. One had a technical failure after takeoff from Tabuk & was unable to land, so the crew ejected.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would like to know why the U.S. is the only navy with a nuclear power carrier? Looking at all the carriers in the world today not any compare to the side of the U.S. carriers. Why is that ? Just imagine 3 carrier group together and no one can do this but the U.S. The Aircraft Carrier give any navy a big boost to it force. If you study and look at different conflict the U.S. carriers were always there. The role of aircraft carrier is to maintain control of ocean in a conflict. When the time come when you have another country going against the U.S. Navy and they have the same sized CBG what a battle that will be. The role of aircraft carrier is still to control the area that the battle is being conducted.
There is one other
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Charles_de_Gaulle_(R91)

Although not comparable to the US Carriers, it is nuclear
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why have the Russians always gone for cruiser/carriers instead of just plain old fleet carriers? They have always had the surface ships so its not like they needed the other capabilities. I mean the japanese use them because of all the crap in there constitution agaisnt carriers. That and the fact that there carriers...erm Helicopter destroyers make great ASW platforms.

Fleet carriers seem to be better almost all ways......ok as a american i have to say.in everyway.

They dont have to be Super carriers just fleet carriers.
1) Doctrine, the Russians have always had a different docterine for their fleet, the Moskva's were big ASW ships, the Kiev's were built to support and protect the ballistic missile subs, the Admiral Kuznetsov was designed for both SAG and ballistic missile sub protection, not force projection as the US uses its carriers.

2) Where they were built, the Montreux Convention prohibits aircraft carriers from passing through the Bosporus Straight
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'd call Kuznetsov & Varyag full-size. The limit on aircraft types carried is imposed by the ski-jump & lack of catapults, not the size.
At 12 fighters per ship, I wouldn't agree. It's not the aircraft types carried that were the issues, but the numbers themselves. You could count the 5 Su-25UBKs also, but I'm not sure it can carry them at the same time. Either way the Su-25UBK is a trainer, rather then a full fledged fighter.
 

Belesari

New Member
1) Doctrine, the Russians have always had a different docterine for their fleet, the Moskva's were big ASW ships, the Kiev's were built to support and protect the ballistic missile subs, the Admiral Kuznetsov was designed for both SAG and ballistic missile sub protection, not force projection as the US uses its carriers.

2) Where they were built, the Montreux Convention prohibits aircraft carriers from passing through the Bosporus Straight
Ah ok ive been looking for info to. Looks like the Russians maybe saw how good the US was at carrier operations and instead of trying to equal us in it decided to go a different route to counter them. Plus this would help them by giving them a boost in ASW. Which makes sense.

The japanese seem to be following the same idea at the moment though their carriers-helicopter destroyers:D-are getting larger and larger in size. Who knows maybe the Japanese will deploy a super carrier by 2020.
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
Thanks for this link, I found it a very useful, well argued and informative read.

Like most successful Master's theses it supplies a lot of well researched stats and regardless of the candidates conclusions are usually a very useful source or pointer to sources.
I'm not being critical of the Commander, just generalizing on theses.

I found his analysis section beginning on P71 to be a very useful/convenient compilation of data and the entire thesis very relevant to this thread.

It's also relevant to the "Hypothetical Carrier Buy for the RAN" thread so I hope you wont mind if I post a link there, duly acknowledged of course.:)

I wont bore anyone with an attempted critique of his arguments, suffice to recommend it as a good starting point on many relevant aspects of carrier usage and value, past present and future.

Thanks again for the link.
Cheers,
Mac
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Thanks for this link, I found it a very useful, well argued and informative read.

Like most successful Master's theses it supplies a lot of well researched stats and regardless of the candidates conclusions are usually a very useful source or pointer to sources.
I'm not being critical of the Commander, just generalizing on theses.

I found his analysis section beginning on P71 to be a very useful/convenient compilation of data and the entire thesis very relevant to this thread.
Although carrier participation was significant, the choice of OIF and OEF was actually poorly made as they neither provided conclusive evidence regarding the question of whether there would be sea-based alternatives. Instead the conclusion was hedged and couched which in the bottom line = inconclusive. Perhaps that's why it was only a master's thesis.

If one reads the conclusion in conjuction with the research question, the weaknesses of the paper is exposed. There is actually no analysis performed to back the paper's conclusions eg the benefits of small carriers, the inability of the CVNs to support a war on terrorism which of course would not have been applicable in the context of OIF, OEF etc.

It doesn't take a university grad to know that smaller carriers could provide under certain circumstances provide greater flexibility cos one can mix and match. For a master's level, one would have expected empirical analysis to identify the correct level of small carriers that would provide an adequate level of support esp when that becomes the main conclusion. The paper also places too much emphasis on the war on terror. Surely, the entire navy can't go small carrier only? What then the Chinese threat etc?

On a very simple level, the author could have easily established an ordinal scale to determine country threat level that would required a certain level of super carriers in a conventional setting and then backed up that analysis with sortie analysis to argue how super carriers would fare against small carriers. This would have been far better than just writing a mere history paper that just lists out facts without indepth analysis.

Even the historical conclusions contradicts the conclusion. All three major battles, OIF, OEF and falklands allowed the carrier operators to consolidate their carrier inventories in a single battle. If the USN is only expected to fight one war at a time, then the necessity of distributed firepower fails. Instead, concentration of firepower is preferred. In fact, the actual historical employment of CVs in USN history all point towards concentration. If one thinks about it, there are 10-11 CVs, how much more distributed does it need to be?

In simple terms, the authors fails to identify the role and kinds of combat in which the super-carriers were designed for. There is no analysis regarding whether OIF and OEF were actually a supplementary role adopted by the CVs rather than their main role. If one reviews the versatility of the super carrier, it is just as capable of transformation into a UCAV carrier capable of anti-terrorism ops etc.

Not surprisingly, the paper is unclassified.
 

JoeMcFriday

New Member
Well said Weasel1962,

I didn't even try to critique either his conclusions or his choice of examples for creating or sustaining his argument for many of the same reasons you posit. I usually find theses to be interesting, it depends what use one makes of them and I am not his marker so didn't venture into that area.

"Like most successful Master's theses it supplies a lot of well researched stats and regardless of the candidates conclusions are usually a very useful source or pointer to sources."

To be clearer, perhaps for "well researched" I should have used "referenced" sources, also for "well argued", perhaps I could have used "clearly" as I was referring to its ease of reading and not rating its military value.

It is as you say, an unclassified Masters Thesis and maybe the examiners were looking more for the clarity of argument reflecting analytical processes than informing high level policy.

If the members take on board your critique re his arguments etc. they will have a more informed view of his thesis' validity academically. I see its value to this thread in the detail it contains, in a convenient form, for their perusal and discussion.

Cheers,
Mac
 

navyproject

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #33
Good paper!

Thank you winnyfield, that was a good paper! Also I would like to thank everyone who have been posting on this topic so far. I really appreciate your help.

So far I have started to explore the following operations involving aircraft carriers:

period: 1975-1990
« Eagle Claw » 1980
Falklands 1982
« Urgent Fury » 1983
Achille Lauro incident 1985
« Prairie Fire » & « El Dorado Canyon » 1986
« Prométhée » 1987-1988
« Praying Mantis » 1988

period: 1991-2000
« Salamandre » , « Daguet » & « Artimon » 1990-1991
« Desert Shield » & « Desert Storm » 1990-1991
« Desert Fox », « Provide Comfort » « Northern & Southern Watch » 1992-1998

period: 2001-2010
« Palliser » 2000
« Enduring Freedom » 2001-2010
« Iraqi Freedom » & « Telic » 2003-2010
« Héraclès » & « Agapanthe » 2004 -2007
« Unified Response » & « White Crane » 2004 -2007

Any other you can think of? Next I will go into the recent situation with Korea and the US/CHINA maritime strategy and the role of US aircraft carriers in the face of the new "DF 21" anti carrier missile.
 

SteelTiger 177

New Member
Aircraft Carriers are still needed.What we're trying with the new Gerald Ford-class CVN's is to reduce the costs in terms of manpower.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the information did not know that the Charles de Gaulle was a Nuclear carrier
IIRC the Charles de Gaulle was originally to be conventially powered but then they made the decision to make her Nuclear, but they have had lots of trouble with her and are planning their next to be conventionaly powered
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I also recommend Admiral Holloway's latest: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Carriers-War-Retrospective-Confrontation/dp/1591143918"]Amazon.com: Aircraft Carriers at War: A Personal Retrospective of Korea, Vietnam, and the Soviet Confrontation (9781591143918): James L., III Holloway: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c3At5uGrL.@@AMEPARAM@@51c3At5uGrL[/ame]
 

SteelTiger 177

New Member
I'd just heard the the new carrier the French are building will be their second.I also feel the Brits should go ahead and make both Queen Elizabeth-class carriers operational rather than just have one operational and one in "mothaballs" they along with France should try to reduce the crew size as we're trying with the Ford-class CVN's.
 

godbody

New Member
They aren't.


There wouldn't be one. See also Falklands.
Other navies are making carriers or purchasing them. Only nation with Aircraft Carrier that fought the U.S. Navy was Japan in World War II. Things going to change in the future as other nations catch up. The role of Aircraft Carrier in conflicts won't change until other navies catch up or find a way to destroy a CBG which is going to be hard to do. If anyone can name other ways you can be a powerful navy without a CBG let me know. The only nation I see catching up with the U.S. Navy is China if they keep up the pace they are on now. Once China catch up they still have to do lots of training with the carrier and supply ships. My conclusion is the role of Aircraft Carrier in a conflict won't change for now.
 
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