The Indonesian Army

A recently posted video from FNSS Medium Tank Harimau at Indodefence 2018.

It is a Medium Tank, but it looks really massive, solid and just beautiful!
 
Some quality images of Indonesian armored vehicles at the recent expo. I can't help but wonder about the Badak. It's a wheeled platform with a 90mm gun turret. Why no ATGMs? Why not add a belt-fed grenade launcher in an RCWS at the top? It would give it much more versatility in terms of engaging different targets with appropriate weapons. Also, while you can't see the top of the turret that well, the optics don't look too impressive... really makes me wonder.

Индонезийская бронетанковая техника на выставке Indo Defense 2018. Часть 1
Индонезийская бронетанковая техника на выставке Indo Defense 2018. Часть 2
 
@Feanor

One explanation that they often say is that ATGMs are too expensive compared to cannon rounds. They also explain that smaller caliber rounds such as 30 mm or even 40 mm autocannon rounds can not penetrate fortified positions and is not sufficiently lethal against other tanks. Thus the only solution is big cannons. A true man's weapon of choice.

Similarly, RCWS turret? Too expensive. Real men behind big gun more reliable anyway. And while they never said anything about belt-fed grenade launcher, they just don't have any interest there. Maybe they consider it unnecessary if you already big guns.

If you are now formulating a protest about how that doesn't make sense, stop, don't bother. I agree with you. But obviously the Indonesian Army disagrees.

PS: sometimes in my less charitable moments I also offer this explanation. A big gun impresses people. Impressing people is important to a parade army. The other stuffs are less important.
 
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Just to add on what tonnyc comments on Badak 90mm. From what I gather from some Army officers, they envision the situations like insurgency just like they have faced in Aceh with GAM, Papua with OPM and East Timor with Fretilin..also they see potential urban insurgance scenario like Philippines faced in Mindanao.

They used to rely on Alvis Saladin/Saracen and V150 forces where the wheeled APC version being supported by wheeled Gun Support Armoured vehicles (like Alvis Saladin).
Their concept seems using big gun support for tight urban areas or dense tropical Bushes where the insurgences take cover, while the APC's followed behind.

This concept what they see as mobile infantry units operation. From my understanding this is going to be Anoa APC following this Badak in combat operation manouver.

Well I'm certainly not in possition to agree or not on their concept..but personally I do think their concept still following their experiences on using Alvis Saladin/Saracen and V150 during anti-insurgency operations, not what US, Russia, or NATO experiences in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria recently, where 30mm fast reaction guns more preferable than bigger but slower rate 90mm.

Still, they do add 30mm gun to some armoured vehicles, like the picture you put on Komodo 4x4 with 30mm turret. I also saw pictures on local forums where Pindad put some models on their projects, in which there's model for IFV based on the hull of that medium tank they developed with FNSS. ThatbIFV used 30mm gun auto-turret.

But again like Tonnyc said, the present generations of Army Brass still like to have big gun..
 
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Ananda said:
From what I gather from some Army officers, they envision the situations like insurgency just like they have faced in Aceh with GAM, Papua with OPM and East Timor with Fretilin..also they see potential urban insurgance scenario like Philippines faced in Mindanao.
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I remember reading an article on the the TNI-AD many years ago [I think it was in 'Military Technology'] in which the writer said the lack of any interest in getting 155mm guns and other equipment was driven not only by the state of finances but also by the need to focus on low intensity/counter insurgency threats rather the slim possibility of state on state high intensity threats. No doubt things have changed; the TNI-AD now has MBTs, MLRSs, 155mm guns, etc - to be expected given that times have changed and that one of the TNI-AD's main roles after all is to safeguard the country against external threats. Still, in the minds of TNI-AD planners my feeling is that although they see the possibility of a state on state conflict; a much more likely scenario is a non state threat. Even if a state on state conflict occurs it will more likely be a limited one confined to border areas rather a protracted high intensity one taking place at various points on the map.

Way before the existence of GAM, OPM and Fretlin; newly independent Indonesia faced serious threats from rebel/secessionist groups in Sumatra and Sulawesi. At one point large parts of Sumatra and Sulawesi were controlled by rebel/secessionist groups, this led to the need for para trained units that could be be rapidly deployed. Today, of all the original ASEAN member states, Indonesia has one the largest number of jump trained units in its army; a legacy of its counter insurgency past and geography.

Ananda said:
where 30mm fast reaction guns more preferable than bigger but slower rate 90mm.
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Personally I don't see the need for a 90mm armed vehicle - especially given that there are MBTs in service and that 90mm guns are good for use against bunkers/fortifications but not against other types of targets - but I guess it depends on ones operational requirements and threat perceptions. A 90mm gun will be great for use against a bunker or a lightly protected vehicle but against a lightly protected vehicle a 30mm auto cannon can do the job just as well if not better. Some armies see the need for 105/90mm armed platforms in scenarios where vehicles have to be deployed by air to places with a poor road infrastructure and in scenarios where MBTs are not needed against the types of threats faced; other armies don't see a need for such vehicles.
 
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STURM said:
Personally I don't see the need for a 90mm armed vehicle - especially given that there are MBTs in service and that 90mm guns are good for use against bunkers/fortifications but not against other types of targets - but I guess it depends on ones operational requirements and threat perceptions. A 90mm gun will be great for use against a bunker or a lightly protected vehicle but against a lightly protected vehicle a 30mm auto cannon can do the job just as well if not better.
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Precisely as I also heard from some of the officers. The younger ones trend to make suggestions to the older higher ranks for IFV with fast firing 20mm - 30mm guns as more beneficial on modern infantry
Support.
Still on the older brass the thinking of bigger gun for infantry support still quite strong, but they seems heard from the younger generation..thus based on what Pindad begin to churning..the IFV of 30mm are coming to inventory also.

The way of thinking that you put is very ingrained in Soeharto era. Afterall the new order era faced continue insurgency fighting in East Timor, Aceh and Papua.
Beginning in SBY era toward present Jokowi's, with the much reduce provincial insurgency threat in Aceh and Papua..the way of thinking is changing..but they are not going to give up the insurgency potential yet..thus the need of combo gun/apc wheeled Armoured the way Alvis Saladin-Saracen doing is still strong. This Badak 90mm and Anoa combo is created as replacement for those Alvis wheeled armoured.

Pindad next project is 8x8 armoured based on license of Czechs ones. Those will have APC version, 30mm IFV, and 105mm cockeril guns versions (same as they put on FNSS-Pindad medium tank). Thus they will not give up on the idea of Wheeled guns versions despite the MBT's and Medium Tanks availability.
 
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Ananda said:
The younger ones trend to make suggestions to the older higher ranks for IFV with fast firing 20mm - 30mm guns as more beneficial on modern infantry
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Whether it's a 30mm auto cannon or a 90mm medium pressure gun; both have their respective merits. Sure 90mm guns are more useful for creating holes in buildings and for dealing with bunkers but even without a 90mm gun, there are other ways to create holes in buildings and to destroy bunkers. In a fluid engagement where opponents are maneuvering, a 30mm auto cannon will be much more useful in taking out IFVs. I suppose the solution is making a trade off based on what one thinks is needed based on threat perceptions, either that or have a bit of both.

Ananda said:
The way of thinking that you put is very ingrained in Soeharto era. Afterall the new order era faced continue insurgency fighting in East Timor, Aceh and Papua. Beginning in SBY era toward present Jokowi's, with the much reduce provincial insurgency threat in Aceh and Papua..the way of thinking is changing..but they are not going to give up the insurgency potential yet.
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During the Suharto era there were active insurgencies in Aceh and East Timor. The situation is changed now; GAM has stood down, East Timor is independent and there is no insurgency in Aceh. The West Papuan independence movement neither has the external support or the necessary means at home to create a situation that would actually enable them to gain independence. In short, based on various factors, the circumstances or conditions that allowed something like Marawi to happen or for a full a blown insurgency to develop; simply do not exist in Indonesia. A much larger threat IMO is that posed by groups like IS and others like it.

Ananda said:
Thus they will not give up on the idea of Wheeled guns versions despite the MBT's and Medium Tanks availability.
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This makes sense given that not all situations will call for a Leopard and that at times; deploying a wheeled vehicle will be a more practical solution given the terrain, the need to air lift those vehicles and smaller logistical footprint of those vehicles.[/QUOTE]
 
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The question for Marines now, is on their 8x8 procurement. Indonesian Marines initially operate small number (around a dozen up to 20+ according some source) of BTR-80A.
The 8x8 supposedly goes to BTR-4M of Ukraine, and as has been discussed in this thread quite some time ago, the Marines seems not want to pursue BTR-4M after initial batch of 5 that being tested by them.

Indonesia signs USD82 million LOI for Pandur II IFVs | Jane's 360

Now the Army has seems going to go with Pandur II as the license joint production locally with Pindad has been put in. The Marines is not 'traditionally' in same path with the Army in their vehicles procurement. However with Pandur II is being license build by Pindad, and they already tested the Amphib version. It will be seen if the Marines goes at same path with the Army on 8x8.
 
From what I understand from my colleagues in the industry, it is highly unlikely that the marines would go to Pindad for their 8x8 requirement. If say the army does go ahead with the Pandur II, Pindad would completely be preoccupied with fulfilling the Army's order to even be thinking about fulfilling one for the Marines.

I have been informed that Pindad has problems with manufacturing turnaround times due their unwillingness to replace some of their workers with automation as a result of their strict KKIP guidelines and from what I assume regular Indonesian government bureaucracy and corruption. The TNI knows this pretty well, so my best guess is whatever the Marines decides to go with would more than likely another import.
 
True, Pindad has problem in developing efficient manufacturing practice. Don't compare it internationally to heavy industries in developed nation..even with other Indonesian heavy industries owned by private sector, it's still lack behind on productivity level.

However, getting that license also mean Government has invest more fund on the project (8x8), and it's politically sensitive if Local industries already manufacture 8x8 which can full fill Marines need, but Marines still want to have Imported stuff.

The only thing that can make the Marines 'avoid' procure Pindad 8x8..if they can prove it's not 'suitable' to their need.
The state Owned ministry already see that current facilities of Indonesian SOE defence industries are still need to be upgraded..thus they come with planned to relocate those SOE defense industries to much larger place (which they say probably in Lampung area).

But..can those SOE defense industries become productive on international standard ?..well..it depends if they can developed more commercial standard SOP on their work and corporate governance conduct..and not just hide behind government projects and subsidies.

For me that's still some way to go..since this administration SOE handling..despite their claim..is still handling those SOE as government institution..and not commercial corporation.
 
I
Ananda said:
https://www.kemhan.go.id/2019/04/22...endaraan-tempur-dan-tank-angkut-personel.html

Initial agreement for third batch of BMP-3F and first batch of BT-3F, for Indonesian Marines. This for further PT-76 and BTR-50 replacements program.
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Indeed a good and logical choice, this is also a proof that the Korps Marinir is really happy with the BMP-3 platform.
So besides the 21 BT-3F, 22 additional BMP-3F are ordered. That means that together with the first batch (17) and second batch (37), Korps Marinir will receive 76 BMP-3Fs in total.

As far as i know, KM has 12 BTR-80As in its inventory, all in use in Libanon for the UNIFIL mission. From which i understand, the Marines acknowledge the quality of the BTR-80A, but they dont like the side doors, so it is unlikely that they want to order BTR-90s.
How about the VPK-7829 Bumerang - Wikipedia ?
 
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Is the Bumerang offered for export sales yet? It would be great for the Marines as they'd likely be able to get relatively soon.
 
Sandhi Yudha said:
I

Indeed a good and logical choice, this is also a proof that the Korps Marinir is really happy with the BMP-3 platform.
So besides the 21 BT-3F, 22 additional BMP-3F are ordered. That means that together with the first batch (17) and second batch (37), Korps Marinir will receive 76 BMP-3Fs in total.

As far as i know, KM has 12 BTR-80As in its inventory, all in use in Libanon for the UNIFIL mission. From which i understand, the Marines acknowledge the quality of the BTR-80A, but they dont like the side doors, so it is unlikely that they want to order BTR-90s.
How about the VPK-7829 Bumerang - Wikipedia ?
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The BTR-90 is not in production and would require a very large scale purchase to make it worth while to start up production. The Bumerang is under development and nowhere near completion. Even the further along tracked platform is only slated for experimental deployment in 2021-2022. I expect that if Indonesia wanted to, they could participate in the development, but it would be expensive, and Indonesia has been buying very small batches of Russian weapons. I don't think that either one is feasible at this time. If anything the BTR-87 is a better bet, it's a reworked BTR-82 with rear doors and various combat module options.
 
Sandhi Yudha said:
There is no any reason for Indonesia to buy this stuff, unless its a political act because George want to order something from Indonesia, like some patrol boats or LPDs from PAL...or aircrafts from IPTN.
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Hmm if there's truth on this my suspicion is they are selling design.
For more than a decade, many companies that specializes in Bus and Coach/Auto-Body manufacturing also try their luck in building Armoured Body business.

With Indonesian defense procurement is geared more toward local Industry involvement, I counted at least half a dozen or more those Coach Builders try to come out with Armoured Vehicle products or prototype.


Ketangguhan TURANGGA, Rantis Karya Anak Bangsa | Tugasanda

This is one of them. I'm not saying this Tugasanda is the one that working with the Georgian company, but I put this as example because their products used Ford F550 as based, just like this Georgian products.

Despite some Nationalistic 'Idiots' in local forum insist that those Coach Builders come out with their own 'local' design, when I was in last IndoDefence some of their staff acknowledge that their products have using foreign design. Not all of them acknowledge that, but I suspect majority of them bought foreign design. This simply cause many of them are coming from civilian coach Builders business, thus not having strong defense experience before.

Back to that Georgian claim, I suspect if this is true then most probably they are cooperating with a local Coach Builders and using their design as part to be in line with 'local product's origination rules.

Many of those Coach Builders either using Japenese Chassis or US one (like Ford trucks either F550 or F150) because their abundance in the market.

Selling design to local industries is the thing that many East European defense industries used to infiltrate Asian market, where many of Asians now want also to increase the local industries participation in their defence projects.
 

Seems this is the latest promotion video from Pindad. In here they are hoping to be forefront Defense and Heavy Industries regionally by 2023.

As being mentioned on previous post from me or other poster, despite their progress, Pindad still have some problem on productivity. Still as defense industries SOE, Pindad, and PAL seems getting more attention from this administration on more 'high profile' product.
On ammunition products, in this video they say that they have build up to 90mm and 105mm calibers, but from what I heard also they are still working for 20mm, 30mm and 40mm through cooperation project with Rheinmetal Denel Munition (RDM).

Quite interesting that they already build small ammo up to 12.7mm and jump to 90mm-105mm, while now begin preparation on 20mm-40mm.

Seems this also shown Army interest to have more fast firing type of 20mm-40mm and not just small calibers Infantrymen then jump to 90mm-105mm.
 
Joint international exercise in Tarakan.
Antisipasi Gangguan Teroris, Indonesia, Malaysia dan Filipina Gelar Latihan Perang

293f790753dd3c9ab213ac053f3a9909.jpg

GLADI: Prajurit Yonif Rider 613/RJA mempersiapkan diri untuk pembukaan Indomalphi Land Exercise 2019, Minggu (28/7).
PROKAL.CO, class="p1">TARAKAN – Latihan perang tiga negara, Indonesia, Filipina dan Malaysia kembali digelar di Tarakan mulai hari ini hingga 8 Agustus mendatang.

Komandan Batalyon Infanteri (Yonif) Rider 613/Raja Alam Letkol Inf Fardin Wardana menjelaskan, latihan perang tiga negara ini merupakan inisiasi Menteri Pertahanan masing-masing negara.

Latihan berlabel Indomalphi Land Exercise 2019 tersebut digelar dalam rangka melatih kesiapsiagaan mengantisipasi gangguan keamanan di perbatasan negara. Seperti teroris maupun kelompok radikal.

Complete article at : http://rakyatkaltara.prokal.co/read...laysia-dan-filipina-gelar-latihan-perang.html
 
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