Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
In 2009 54 KH-178 105mm Howitzers were sold by South-Korea to Indonesia, but why only 54, or did we bought later more of them?
The Indonesian Army
- Thread starter DavidDCM
- Start date
In 2009 54 KH-178 105mm Howitzers were sold by South-Korea to Indonesia, but why only 54, or did we bought later more of them?
Army first MLRS ?
Can you more specific which year of the 60's?
What is the purpose, for Confrontation or Liberating Papua?
So, Indonesia is the first country using MLRS in this region ?
Can you more specific which year of the 60's?
What is the purpose, for Confrontation or Liberating Papua?
So, Indonesia is the first country using MLRS in this region ?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Just like David says, it's enough for 3 Art Bttln. Those are Field gun, and their procurement more as replacement for old Yugo 76 mm filed gun. I don't find any info official or unofficial that show TNI-AD wants to add their field gun bttln. Seems the priority is more to build mobility factor, thus the thing like merchandised infantry battalion, self propelled gun, MLRS, utility/transport helicopter sq, gunship is more priority than field gun.
1. Like I say before the info for RM-51 in Indonesian Army, is rather sketchy. I don't have specific year, however the info (from printed media and local forum) indicated that they procured mostly by early part of 60's. My guess is between 61-63.
2. For Papua conflict most likely. The then Armed Force Chief AH Nasution went touring USSR and East Block by 58-59 for preparation on Papua conflict. Most Eastern block equipment come after that.
3. If the region means South-East Asia, then yes I believe so. North Vietnam come very close as the second one.
Btw, after looking to the video of their latest involvement on TNI-AD practice on South Sumatra, seems many of those RM-51 now mounted on US made M-35 in which still quite common on TNI-AD inventory, rather than their original ZIL-157 Truck.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
TNI's first example of Leo 2 arrive.
From Tempo on-line:
Tank Leopard Tiba di Jakarta Hari Ini | nasional | Tempo.co
Sorry seems I have the problem to paste the result from Google translate. Basically the article mentioned two Leopard 2 which is part of TNI-AD order has arrive in Jakarta. According from other sources, actually that come to Jakarta is 1 Leo 2 Rev, and 1 Marder as example that will be participating in IndoDefence 2012 this month. Tempo stated that Leo 2 Rev costs Indonesian Mindef USD 1.7 mio per Tank, whille Leo 2A4 cost them USD 700,000. Overall USD 270 mio budget will bring 61 Leo 2 Rev, 42 Leo 2A4, 10 Leo 2 based support vehicle and 50 Marder 3.
It's been speculated in Local Forum that Pindad will got project later on to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2 Rev.
The photo come from local forum Kaskus, which shown Leo 2 Rev and Marder disembarked from Ro-Ro ship in Jakarta's port Tanjung Priok.
From Tempo on-line:
Tank Leopard Tiba di Jakarta Hari Ini | nasional | Tempo.co
Sorry seems I have the problem to paste the result from Google translate. Basically the article mentioned two Leopard 2 which is part of TNI-AD order has arrive in Jakarta. According from other sources, actually that come to Jakarta is 1 Leo 2 Rev, and 1 Marder as example that will be participating in IndoDefence 2012 this month. Tempo stated that Leo 2 Rev costs Indonesian Mindef USD 1.7 mio per Tank, whille Leo 2A4 cost them USD 700,000. Overall USD 270 mio budget will bring 61 Leo 2 Rev, 42 Leo 2A4, 10 Leo 2 based support vehicle and 50 Marder 3.
It's been speculated in Local Forum that Pindad will got project later on to upgrade Leo 2A4 to Leo 2 Rev.
The photo come from local forum Kaskus, which shown Leo 2 Rev and Marder disembarked from Ro-Ro ship in Jakarta's port Tanjung Priok.
Vegan-Zombie
New Member
I have to ask, would there be any significant difference in weight if the leo's are up gunned to the L55's? concerning the fact that the only thing that seems to be holding back the MinDef towards the A6 or A7's is the weight issue...
Ananda
The Bunker Group
According to publicly available specs, the difference of A6 to A5 in combat weight is around 3 ton. A6 and A5 differences mostly on L55 gun in A6 and L44 gun A5, however the Armour more or less similar. In other hand there are also differences on several other area, thus in my opinion those 3 ton differences is not merely the differences of L55 with L44 alone. However the differences of the gun weight seems account significant portion of the differences.
Mindef did not take on A6 or A7 not because of the difference of weight (which relatively did not make much differences), but more to budget. The budget that being approved (after long lobby with parliament) is USD 260-280 mio range. For that budget, Mindef already promissed Parliament they can get 100 Leopard 2 MBT.
Now, the 100 Leo 2 A6 from Dutch, is one time deal. In such, the Dutch want to release their relatively new Leo 2 A6 on that price, due to their internal budgetary concern at this moment. In reality USD 270 mio budget, can't get 100 Leo 2 A6. Since Mindef found trouble diplomatically with Dutch Parliament in securing the deal, while in the same time they need to produce the contract this year if they want all of the Tanks to be operationally available by 2014, then they have to go somewhere else.
Germany can give 100+ Leo 2 with that kind of budget, but off course not with A6 and A7 specs. So that's it. It's not a weight concern. It's a budgetary concern.
Vegan-Zombie
New Member
I get that, but I recall that KMW said that for the revolution upgrade, there is a choice if you want to up-gun the Leo-2 to the L55 cannon, wouldn't the budget allow for up-gunning of the Rev's?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Not for 100 Leo2 with L55 cannon (or A6 standard). Like I said, the Dutch deal is a one time deal on getting 100 Leo 2A6 with that kind of budget. However with Dutch deal can't be secured then Mindef has to get it from the manufacturers, which I do believe asking much more than the existing budget for 100 Leo2 with L55. Why ? since this means new production.
What it means with new production not necessary brand new Tank (like the Saudi's deal), however a new upgraded second hand Tank. In today Kompas news paper, one of the commander of TNI-AD cavalry stated that even TNI Leo 2 Rev (they call it Leo 2 RI) will not be entirely same with the Leo 2 Rev that being displayed in Indodefence right now. The differences mostly on sensors in which some of them will not be installed in the Leo 2 RI. He then indicated the sensors mostly for detection of missiles. However the rest will be similar with Leo 2 Rev.
Well I can only presume what he said about missiles sensors is that the Leo 2 RI will not have an active protection system/countermeasures. In sense, the Leo 2 RI will have some area being speck down compared to Leo 2 Rev. That's why they still can get 61 Leo 2 Rev (or RI which I heard from some sources indicating Revolution for Indonesia), 42 Leo 2 A4, 10 Support Vehicle and 50 Marder with that budget. It's quite a bargain deal for USD 260-270 mio budget from the manufacturers, but off course not as same bargain if the Dutch deal can be secured.
Note:
In Kompas, the Cavalry spokesman stated that Cavalry Battalions 1 and 8 in Java will get those Leo 2. Currently those battalions equipped with AMX 13. The Army also sated on different occasions that two additional battalion will be established on possible Borneo or Timor. In sense AMX 13 seems will not be retired, but just moving on to other islands.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Ahh Thanks for the corrections David. Well they (TNI-AD) will have some Light Tanks moving program later on, when those Leo 2 come to fruition.
Vegan-Zombie
New Member
Well that's sad to hear, I was actually happy to see us settle on the rev upgrade, but without an APS? that's just disappointing to me personally...
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well, APS is an upgradable packages. They can add later on if they got additional budget to do it. We do not have enough information what kind of packages that Leo 2 RI does not included yet compared to full specs Leo 2 Rev. All right now being informed that some sensors is not put on Leo 2 RI. Then again if only sensors or electronics, it's all upgradable packages.
Personally I'm more interested with those 43 Standard Leo 2 A4, which rumored will be upgrade later on by Pindad with manufacturers assistant. We'll see if that happen.
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Not buying everything does not mean you get a 2nd-grade or downgraded version of the tank.
The prototypes carry every upgrade option possible just to show what is available. They are a walking advertisement specifically built for expos and trials. Every customer has to pick and choose those options which he needs and can afford. But almost no customer ever buys everything.
For example: The German army never purchased the additional hull and turret roof armor for their Leopard 2. Sweden did. But on the other hand, Sweden never went for the long L55 gun. Thus, as we see, every customer has his own requirements and needs, and nobody ever buys the whole fancy "prototype" package.
The prototypes carry every upgrade option possible just to show what is available. They are a walking advertisement specifically built for expos and trials. Every customer has to pick and choose those options which he needs and can afford. But almost no customer ever buys everything.
For example: The German army never purchased the additional hull and turret roof armor for their Leopard 2. Sweden did. But on the other hand, Sweden never went for the long L55 gun. Thus, as we see, every customer has his own requirements and needs, and nobody ever buys the whole fancy "prototype" package.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Agree David. Got some pictures on the Prototype of Leo 2 Rev that the manufacturers now circulating on-line. As you have mentioned they prepared the prototype to get everything.
Some customers like Indonesia will choose what packages they will prioritise base on their need and budget. We still do not know what kind of upgrade the Leo 2 RI will have overall, and perhaps will never know since TNI will want most of it classified. However so far they (TNI) already stated that Leo 2 RI will have similar armor packages with Leo 2 Rev Prototype.
Some customers like Indonesia will choose what packages they will prioritise base on their need and budget. We still do not know what kind of upgrade the Leo 2 RI will have overall, and perhaps will never know since TNI will want most of it classified. However so far they (TNI) already stated that Leo 2 RI will have similar armor packages with Leo 2 Rev Prototype.
Vegan-Zombie
New Member
Personally, I was more interested in the AMAP-ADS module package. You hardly ever see active duty tanks that are protected by an APS (aside from the Israeli's) and it would be nice knowing that our army is, at a considerable level, technologically advanced..
On a side note, I heard on some forums that the TNI is evaluating the Swedish CV90 (possibly for pindad's IFV/Medium tank project), anyone heard that before?
On a side note, I heard on some forums that the TNI is evaluating the Swedish CV90 (possibly for pindad's IFV/Medium tank project), anyone heard that before?
SGMilitary
New Member
As far as I know,the Singaporean Leopard 2SG are already equipped with AMAP-ADS package + other integration which include the possible upgrade to L55 gun system if the defence related articles I have read is accurate.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Mindef already talking with Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Korea, Spain, Sweden and Italy (some info talk about that to) on possible platform being used as based for the plan Medium Tank. Based on the info in media and local forum, Germany, Korea and Turkey got some serious follow up from Mindef and Pindad.
However Germany (Rheinmetall) seems going to get the contract. I've post this previously, and the procurement of Marder is the definite clue on that. Just like in the case of Anoa, the process begin with procurement of VAB, then discussion with Renault on possible manufacturing with Pindad, then Anoa is the result.
This pattern also being follow on with Sherpa (also with Renault) for Armored Scout vehicle. I do believe this is the pattern that going to be follow by Pindad and other local defense Industry for developing their product.
This is from Defense Media Center (Mindef On-line site):
Indo Defence 2012 : Kemhan RI Tanda Tangani MoU ToT Alutsista Dengan Brazil dan Jerman
Basically it's said that ToT agreement has been signed by Mindef and local defense Industry with Brazilian Avibras for MLRS and German Rheinmettal for (I believe) support on Leo 2 MBT and development of 30 ton Medium Tank.
It's more clear now, that Marder will be based for this Medium Tank. It will not be Marder (just like Anoa is not VAB), but it will be based on that.
From local forum mention that from interview with the user (a cav. army major) in IDAM 2012, there are 12 available upgrade packages/item for Leopard 2 Revolution. But Indonesian Leopard 2 will only include 7 upgrade packages from those packages. the item that are not included in indonesia Leopard upgrade packages are :
1. RCWS,
2. ROSYS (soft kill system);
3. SAS (Camera for 360 degree view);
4. Commander's brake
5. BMS
The reason for only taking 7 from a possible 12 is because budget constraint, and because some of those system are considered not essentials (apart from BMS). There are also talk's about upgrading it later on with locally produce items, such as a plan for locally produced BMS which involves local company like PT. Pindad. As for the cannon, it will retain the L44.
BTW i'm a silent reader, this is my first post.
1. RCWS,
2. ROSYS (soft kill system);
3. SAS (Camera for 360 degree view);
4. Commander's brake
5. BMS
The reason for only taking 7 from a possible 12 is because budget constraint, and because some of those system are considered not essentials (apart from BMS). There are also talk's about upgrading it later on with locally produce items, such as a plan for locally produced BMS which involves local company like PT. Pindad. As for the cannon, it will retain the L44.
BTW i'm a silent reader, this is my first post.