The Indonesian Army

[Vegan-Zombie]

Ananda: Do you know whether the Marders be eventually upgraded to the A5/A5A1 version? Also, whatever happened with the K21 procurement plan, are the Marders chosen over them?

Kensama: I heard that too, whats more plausible currently in a local upgrade package would be an RCWS and a 360 degree camera. Later on with the right budget I assume Pindad and several of the local companies would develop an indegenous BMS, like what Chile did with their Leopard 2's, or maybe buy them from KMW.

Are the AMAP composite armor part of the ToT deal?

 

[Ananda]

Ananda: Do you know whether the Marders be eventually upgraded to the A5/A5A1 version? Also, whatever happened with the K21 procurement plan, are the Marders chosen over them?

Are you talking the Marder that procured as part of Leo 2 packages, or Pindad Medium Tank Project. As Marder that part of Leo 2 Packages, I haven't heard Pindad will getting a contract to upgraded them. What I heard is Pindad hoping to get contract to upgrade 43 Leo 2A4 under the packages.

Today I've an opportunity coming to Indodefence, only staying for a while (coming as part of Business since the Bank I'm working has been financing few local defense project, and now being ask to further finance more projects. Just looking for projects with viable financial prospect).

However got an opportunity talking with Rheinmetall people, which saying that they are in process on working with Pindad for possible upgrade projects on Leo 2 done by Pindad. Still on early stages according to them. No talking about Marder upgrades.

For Pindad Medium Tank Project. Like I said, Just like Anoa which design based on VAB but Anoa is not VAB, the Medium Tank more likely will be have design based on Marder but will not be Marder.

Anoa, even design based on VAB, has some South Korean Technology (from I heard on lower automotive part), since Pindad even-though when building Anoa have cooperation with Renault, but also sourcing from other sources, so Anoa will not become just another VAB.

Looking on that, I can only presumed Pindad when building this Medium Tank Project will try to sources some of the parts/design from other sources. Doosan still lobbying Mindef to get some part of the deal. So does Turkey's Asselsan. In short, with ToT MoU already sign with Rheinmettal, it can be presumed Marder will contribute significant part of the design, but it will not turn out as just another Marder. Pindad I believe like the time when they designing Anoa, will try to get multiple sources of Tech, just to made the Medium Tank, as their Tank and not just another copy from some IFV in the market.

Btw, from Rheinmetall guys that I've talked, he indicated that most of Leo 2 RI Armor packages will be similar with Leo 2 Rev, however some of the electronics won't be. Seems support what TNI-AD sources already say in media.

 

[djakarta]

Hi there !

this is my first post . i found this thread is quite interesting .i've been reading it for a past few days .

Sorry if im out of topic but i want to share some information related to Indonesian defence.

Jakarta is going to build another 3 war-ship in corporation with PT Dok Kodja Bahari .The opening ceremony is presented by the Indonesian defence minister with keel lying and first steel cutting .

If u understand bahasa indonesia, here is some choice of local blogs .

penulisjakarta.weebly.com/1/post/2012/11/pembangunan-di-industri-pertahanan-ri.html

or you may google it yourself for details .

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Selamat datang Djakarta!

 

[ADMk2]

Seems Indonesia has taken a fancy to the Javelin ATGW.

25x launchers and 180 missiles, plus support under the initial contract for USD $60m.

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2012/Indonesia_12-56.pdf

Some nice Javelin footage below for those unfamiliar with the system.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3iA5KCa16s&feature=share&list=LP6LCy6JLnlCg"]FGM-148 Javelin Anti-Tank Missile - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

Nice! now all we need is to issue our army a standard MOLLE body armor instead of using the chestrig system we have since the 1990's

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In September we got the news that TNI-AD will get one battery of Starstreaks, but one battery, how many launchers is that?
And will it be self-propelled launchers, three round light weight launchers or man portable launchers?

(DEFENSE STUDIES: Satu Baterai Rudal Starstreak Masuk ke Arhanudse Kodam Jaya)

 

[DavidDCM]

Seems Indonesia has taken a fancy to the Javelin ATGW.

25x launchers and 180 missiles, plus support under the initial contract for USD $60m.

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2012/Indonesia_12-56.pdf

Some nice Javelin footage below for those unfamiliar with the system.

FGM-148 Javelin Anti-Tank Missile - YouTube

Let's not forget that the absolute lack of guided anti-tank weapons was one of the oddest deficits of the Indonesian army for many years. 25 systems is really a "drop in the ocean". Every unit except tank batallions had to rely on unguided shoulder weapons to fight enemy armour. This is an extreme disadvantage, obviously, as Southeast Asian neighbours have been ramping up on armoured vehicles for the last 15 or so years, the purchase of a modern ATGW is just a logical step.

 

[koxinga]

Let's not forget that the absolute lack of guided anti-tank weapons was one of the oddest deficits of the Indonesian army for many years. 25 systems is really a "drop in the ocean". Every unit except tank batallions had to rely on unguided shoulder weapons to fight enemy armour. This is an extreme disadvantage, obviously, as Southeast Asian neighbours have been ramping up on armoured vehicles for the last 15 or so years, the purchase of a modern ATGW is just a logical step.

TNI and its predecessor, ABRI, was primarily focus on internal security operations for most part. Being island republic for most part (with the exception of Borneo) and the lack of any direct armour threat on its borders probably put the ATGM mission on the backburner. Yes, 25 seems somewhat small. Would they be deployed with Kostrad and the new formations that would be raised with the Leopards and Marders?

 

[STURM]

Let's not forget that the absolute lack of guided anti-tank weapons was one of the oddest deficits of the Indonesian army for many years. 25 systems is really a "drop in the ocean". Every unit except tank batallions had to rely on unguided shoulder weapons to fight enemy armour.

It goes back to threat perceptions and operational requirements - both of which dictated how armies were equipped and organised. With the exception of the SAF and to a much lesser extent the RTA [which was worried that the Vietnamese would venture westwards after taking Cambodia], most SEA armies were infantry centric armies tailored for low intensity internal threats posed by lightly armed opponents operating on foot. The first army [from the original ASEAN countries] to get ATGWs was the RTA [TOW 1s] followed by the Singapore army [Milan 1]. Malaysia - which was the first to get ship launched anti-ship missiles and ship launched anti-air missiles - only got the Eryx in 1994 and even then it was intended to protect the Malaysian Battalion in UNPROFOR against the possibility of attacks by the Bosnian Serbs.

 

[Ananda]

Malaysia - which was the first to get ship launched anti-ship missiles and ship launched anti-air missiles - only got the Eryx in 1994 and even then it was intended to protect the Malaysian Battalion in UNPROFOR against the possibility of attacks by the Bosnian Serbs.

Small correction, Malaysian Navy did become the first navy in SEA that fielded 'western' made ship launch SSM in the form of Exocet MM-38. However Indonesian navy already fielded ship launched SSM since early 60's in the form of P-15/SS-N-2 on board Komar missile boats.

However with no potential big armoured invasions, anti armoured is just like you say not priority. Todays, at least for Indonesia, the procurement of Javelin is more to keep up with technology and modern anti armor environment. The procurement is not in big number relative to TNI size, but enough to catch up on enviromental practice.

 

[Ananda]

Long History of RPG-7 with Indonesian Marines.

Got an old picture from Lokal Forum that show 1960's Indonesian Marines exercise with RPG-7 and compared to recent photo of Indonesian Marines still using RPG-7. The thing is, seems the Marines, that still relied on RPG-7 all this time, while the Army already moved to western type shoulder launched anti armor projectiles.

 

[STURM]

Small correction, Malaysian Navy did become the first navy in SEA that fielded 'western' made ship launch SSM in the form of Exocet MM-38. However Indonesian navy already fielded ship launched SSM since early 60's in the form of P-15/SS-N-2 on board Komar missile boats.

I was referring to the wire guided S-11s that were operated years before the Exocets but you're right, Indonesia had the Styx in the 1960's, way before the SS-11s entered service. In fact come to think of it, few if any of the numerous RN, RAN and RNZN vessels deployed in Malaysian waters during the confrontation had anti-ship missiles but ALRI already did. What were the first vessels to be fitted with missiles long after the Komars were retired, the Fatahillah class?

Did Indonesia ever get the RPG-2 prior to the RPG-7? As for the TNI-AD, what other shoulder launched weapons are operated besides LRAC? If I'm not mistaken Ambrust was also bought in the 1980's?

 

[Ananda]

the first vessels to be fitted with missiles long after the Komars were retired, the Fatahillah class?

Did Indonesia ever get the RPG-2 prior to the RPG-7? As for the TNI-AD, what other shoulder launched weapons are operated besides LRAC? If I'm not mistaken Ambrust was also bought in the 1980's?

Actually according to Jane's, Indonesian Navy still operated Komar close to end of 70's. Whether at that time Styx still operational, well questionable. However this means the time difference between the last of Komar and the replacement (South Korean made Mandau Misilles FPB) was not that long. Fatahillah and Mandau did come to TNI-AL operation at simmilar time.

Carl Gustav Recoilles Rifle was the other shoulder launched weapons being used by the Army. French ENTAC was the first anti tank missiles being used by Indonesian Army and procured in the 60's. Recent order of shoulder launch weapons was also Serbian made M80 Zolja. Data on ENTAC and M80 can be seen from Sirpi database. TNI-AD was little bit shy on that.

 

[koxinga]

What has happened to the Leopard 2 purchase? After the talk about 30 units arriving by October, there seems to be no sign of it happening. It also appears that no contract have been signed yet, and only an MoU was signed between Rheinmetal and PT Pindad in Indo-Defence 2012

 

[Ananda]

What has happened to the Leopard 2 purchase? After the talk about 30 units arriving by October, there seems to be no sign of it happening. It also appears that no contract have been signed yet, and only an MoU was signed between Rheinmetal and PT Pindad in Indo-Defence 2012

KOSTRAD

That's the link to Kostrad website that show the building for Leopard garage in Yonkav 1( cavalry batalion 1). Usually they are not building anything like this unless Leopard already done deal.

The money for Leo2 already signed to disburse by Parliament. So far that's the update can be found on this matter.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks for the KOSTRAD link, Ananda.

Actually according to Jane's, Indonesian Navy still operated Komar close to end of 70's. Whether at that time Styx still operational, well questionable. However this means the time difference between the last of Komar and the replacement (South Korean made Mandau Misilles FPB) was not that long. Fatahillah and Mandau did come to TNI-AL operation at simmilar time.

Carl Gustav Recoilles Rifle was the other shoulder launched weapons being used by the Army. French ENTAC was the first anti tank missiles being used by Indonesian Army and procured in the 60's. Recent order of shoulder launch weapons was also Serbian made M80 Zolja. Data on ENTAC and M80 can be seen from Sirpi database. TNI-AD was little bit shy on that.

I forgot from which unit (Kopassus/Kostrad/Kopaska/Kormar), but these AT-weapons are in use with them. Armbrust, C90, PF-89 and Armbrust again.

BTW, KSAD : TNI AD Lanjutkan Modernisasi Alutsista | Indonesian Military reports that TNI-AD wants to ad UH-60 Black Hawks, but i didn't found no where else information about this.

 

[Saracens]

Just reminding,
Indonesian marines belong to Navy (TNI-AL), not in army (TNI-AD).

And maybe we can discuss about Indonesian Navy at its thread.
This is for Indonesian Army.

And about Starstreak, that's are for TNI-AD not TNI-AU ?

Thanks

 

[Ananda]

Just reminding,
Indonesian marines belong to Navy (TNI-AL), not in army (TNI-AD).

And maybe we can discuss about Indonesian Navy at its thread.
This is for Indonesian Army.

And about Starstreak, that's are for TNI-AD not TNI-AU ?

Thanks

Well, I do believe when David start this thread, eventough his talking about the army, but from time to time we discuss also in this thread about the marines.

I believe as long as it's land based military arm it's alright, since we do have seperated thread talking about maritime based and aerial based military operations.

After all Indonesian marines due engage heavily on land based operations, and involved on every land based military operations and conflicts since the time of its birth.

Btw talking about ATGM, seems we skip the 9M113 or AT-5 which marines used on their BMP-2/BVP-2. These made them the only operational ATGM in indonesian service, until the comming of plan Javelin. Other AT weapons are unguided ones.

 

[Saracens]

Well, I do believe when David start this thread, eventough his talking about the army, but from time to time we discuss also in this thread about the marines.

Yah, sure. But I just reminding to all readers here

Btw talking about ATGM, seems we skip the 9M113 or AT-5 which marines used on their BMP-2/BVP-2. These made them the only operational ATGM in indonesian service, until the comming of plan Javelin. Other AT weapons are unguided ones.

Do you have the quantity of those ATGM?

And I have another open question about Starstreak, anyone?