The Indonesian Army

[Sandhi Yudha]

So, it seems that this unit in Aceh will be expanded and equipped in 2022 with a modern Counter rocket artillery and mortar system. Unclear is which type they will receive.
But they surely need replacement of their old equipment.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Lembaga Keris just posted some overviews from new items for the army. It seems that TNI-AD will get new assault rifles, machine guns and an air defence system.

So the first item is the Ferfrans SOAR SCW, a new 5,56 mm assault rifle, with Trijicon MRO sights.
Ferfrans is a company based in Mandaue City, Philippines, but all products are manufactured or sourced in the United States. FERFRANS developed the Special Operations Assault Rifle (SOAR) and the sub-compact weapon (SCW) is the shortened variant of it, in the same class as the Pindad SS2-V5. I expect only a small amount of these rifles will be ordered for some special units. Still weird that this product is chosen above the SS2-V5 A1.

SCW

Decisive – Accurate – Firepower

www.ferfrans.net

The second product is the "mesin senapan" DSAR15P 11,5 kal 5,56 mm NATO.
It is classified as "machinegun" in the overview, but is is actually an assault rifle.
And it seems to be that this is the same assault rifle recently bought for BAKAMLA.

Dasan Machineries DSAR-15 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also for this product i think, "Are Pindad's product not good enough for BAKAMLA and the army that expensive foreign products need to be bought?"

The third product is the TD-2000. The remarkable thing is that from thes three acquisitions the budget for this item is the smallest one, only Rp 8.260.000.000. From which i understand TNI-AD already bought the TD-2000B some years ago. According to some sources it is build around the QW-3 MANPADS missiles, according other sources the missile used for it is the QW-4 MANPADS missile. It seems to be in use by the TNI-AD to connect the MANPADS to old manually operated AAAs like the S-60 and chinese ZU-23-2 copies.

Probably TNI-AD ordered only one add-on battery or something. Even its a cheap chinese product, just Rp 8.260.000.000 is quite low for an air defence system.

In the last image we can see Indonesian army CPMIEC TD-2000B Short Range Air Defense System battery during tactical and technical training by Detasemen Arhanud 001 air defense detachment on September 07, 2015.
Photo taken by TNI AD - Kodam Iskandar Muda


More info at Indonesia Buys New SHORADS
and

https://tniad.mil.id/latnistis-tingkat-ton-detasemen-arhanud-001/

 

[Ananda]

The third product is the TD-2000. The remarkable thing is that from thes three acquisitions the budget for this item is the smallest one, only Rp 8.260.000.000. From which i understand TNI-AD already bought the TD-2000B some years ago.

I'm in 'Gosip' mode, there's talk that I heard from 'finance' people that getting this from MinDef insider on how some 'defense' consultants acting out in public/online media, are more on getting some piece of 'pie'. Some of them are those that are 'usualy' related as 'agent' from eastern sources like Russia and China. They're making fuss as Prabowo's MinDef seems cutting projects from non Western vendors.

One of the item that they're pushing is this:

Norinco's PCL-181 SPH in service with PLAGF's 71st Group Army

Chinese state-owned media revealed on 6 June that an artillery brigade under the People's Liberation Army Ground Force's (PLAGF's) 71st Group Army has been equipped with...

www.janes.com

There're 'interest' that want to get some pie from European Vendors. They're claiming more economics compared to French 'Ceasar' that getting traction as standard TNI-AD self propelled gun.

Are Pindad's product not good enough for BAKAMLA and the army that expensive foreign products need to be bought?

Sometimes ago I chat with my colleague a banker from India, who like me somewhat defense enthusiasts. He's not Modi/BJP supporters, but when I talk about political positioning on National defense complex, he acknowledged there's good thing on Modi's made in India drive.

Just like in Indonesia, there's many 'Agents' running around India's MinDef and services Brass. Despite decades of various Indian Administration drive for self reliance on Defense, there are still many 'side projects' (like in Indonesia) that take chunks of what supposedly already capable sources locally.

The idea that Local Made still underpar from foreign contemporaries also happen in Indonesia. Eventough at most part the difference around +/-10% capabilities.
On other way around the discipline of most ROK and Japanese MinDef and services Brass on supporting Local Made are in different spectrum compared to what Indian and Indonesian have.

Thus it's back to how the Political Circles and each Administration drive for local products. Yes in some ways many of SOE's defense products in Indonesia are foreign rebrand products. However like it or not, that's where most defense Industry (or any Industry) begin with. Begin work as rebranding others products, under licensing others, modified others design and then able to produce your own design. That's how most developing Industry cycle are.

What need to be control are your defense Industry efficient performance, and their learning cycle progress. Those who don't perform need to be cut or (in case of SOE) revamping the management. This has to be audit in continuities. However at same time you have to make sure the budget that being disburse has to be shown involvement of local Industry works.

Indonesian are not people that proud of using local products. Just like Indian, need to be force to do it. We are not like East Asians that have higher prides on using locals. Japan and South Korean are known for good electronics, and automotive products. However their qualities are 'suck' in the beginning. We can see the example of Hyundai cars before 2010 as example. Still their market and Government shown discipline and willingness to support from beginning.

So unless those's mentality can be force toward MinDef and defense services. We can found ourselves like India that after decades of continues pouring money on defense Industry, still are one of the largest Importers.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Also for this product i think, "Are Pindad's product not good enough for BAKAMLA and the army that expensive foreign products need to be bought?"

It's how a lot of local reps make their money. For example, the coaxials and pintle mounted guns on the Leopards are M240's made by Ohio Ordnance and US Ordnance. And the Navy uses McMillan Tac-50's instead of the SPR-2 as well.

Even small orders can mean a lot of money for these reps.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It's how a lot of local reps make their money. For example, the coaxials and pintle mounted guns on the Leopards are M240's made by Ohio Ordnance and US Ordnance. And the Navy uses McMillan Tac-50's instead of the SPR-2 as well.

Even small orders can mean a lot of money for these reps.

Sad but true.
A good example is the Indonesian Police, known as one of the most..... 'creative' institutions of this country.
From which i understand the police has the 15 NBO-105s, 18 Enstrom En480B, one NBell 412, one Bell 206, one Bell 429, some Mi-2s and around 4 AS365 Dauphin.
And now they suddenly got some Agustas

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403549240681398273

Same case with the ground vehicles. The majority of the cars is from Japanese brands, because of the reliability, price, quality, operational costs and logistics. But round 10 years ago, some smart guys decided to order a large amount of Fords. A couple of years later none of these Fords are anymore in operation. Even the Timor S515 had a longer breath than those Fords.

Thats the problem with corruptors, they do not care that their organization become inefficient and ineffective. With a large part of the funds ending up in the pockets of corruptors, there will always be a lack of money and an effectivity and image of an average poor 3rd World Country.

 

[Ananda]

now they suddenly got some Agustas

Leonardo already set up maintenance facility in Halim with local MRO partner, because they see increase of their penetration on the market that so far being dominated by Bell and Airbus products.

Indonesian Police Sign LOI For 11 Leonardo Helicopters | Aviation Week Network

The Indonesian police force reportedly has signed a letter of intent for the purchase of 11 twin-engine, medium-size Leonardo helicopters—nine AW169s and two AW189s. Scheduling delivery of the aircraft batches next year, the deal was initially agreed to in December 2018, Indonesian police air...

aviationweek.com

It's been in the media for some time. Just not local media. Police got annual budget around 70% of TNI. That big considering TNI budget has to be divided by three branches. The logic on that because Police has to handle internal national security including anti militantancy and terorism.

Somehow their budget got less spotlight compare to TNI budget. This shown the power of insititutions that handle national security. This is not Soeharto era where TNI got upper hand. At this moment the Police as institution got more upper hand compare to TNI. Especialy considering their brass got more chummy with ruling party elite (compare to SBY era).

Well I'm digressing somewhat.

 

[Ananda]

This for from Kris FB, I put it here as remember on Pindad agreement with Oto Melara for licensing M56 105mm Howitzer, as replacement for this Yugo M48 76mm. Both considered as light weight mountain guns, thus replacing with M56 hope to provide similar mobility but with more punch.

However the Army doesn't really buy the idea, as the consider M56 base Project will not provide gun that better then their M101/2 105mm. Let alone more modern 105mm. Also the thinking of getting more punch with 155mm seems getting more traction.

This guns seems being used by Artillery School. However with concept of light weight mobility, is it still worth it on getting light weight 105mm as what Marines did with Nexter 105mm LG family ? Or more to 155mm Light weight like M777. I'm not defense professional, but is it better to just getting more 155mm gun? The technology making them more mobile, light weight and compact. Something that 105mm light weight gun used to provide the advantage.

Is it worth it to maintain 105mm or just move on to standardizing with 155mm ?

 

[kato]

Is it worth it to maintain 105mm or just move on to standardizing with 155mm ?

The question in this regard is more whether you need mountain guns - or rather, guns that you can move with just a jeep or a relatively light helo (a UH-1 is perfectly fine to move it), inside (!) some armoured vehicles or similar-sized boats or completely oldschool on pack horses or manpacked. If you do have that kind of mobility requirement there's virtually no other option than the good old Model 56.

Of course it won't be as "good" as a M101. But you pretty much have none of the above mobility options with any 105mm orf 155mm field howitzer anyway.

 

[swerve]

Yes, if you want that mobility it's the M56 or a mortar.

 

[kato]

In Yugoslavia those 76mm mountain field guns Indonesia uses were back in the early 80s replaced with the 120mm lightweight mortar M74 that is specifically designed for the same mobility (towed by light vehicle or animal, disassembled on pack animals, manpacked over short distances, slung under about any helo with a cargo hook etc). It's basically a lighter-weight version of the M75 120mm mortar introduced for general infantry in parallel. There's still a couple companies that offer both models.

The downside of the mortar is primarily the loss of direct-fire ability when compared to the mountain guns. And yes, some armies seem to still value that, otherwise you wouldn't be able to buy new-production DF sights graduated for anti-tank purposes for the 105mm M56...

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This is taken from Lembaga Keris Twitterpage. As expected TNI-AD has the most expenses for the personnel.
The second tabel/overview is very general, all aircrafts, warships, missiles and other stuff are just grouped together. So its not really accurate and useful.

 

[Ananda]

second tabel/overview is very general, all aircrafts, warships, missiles and other stuff are just grouped together. So its not really accurate and useful.

There's still thinking on defense is based in quantity and not quality. Too many politicians and senior brass thinking perhaps basing on some quantification statistics from Global Fire Power and such.

We can see an example from Video on International Workshop that TNI-AU done in Air Force Threshold. The mid range more tachnical minded officers already in line on building the fleet base on compatibilities of fleet, logistics, networks and weapon integration.

However if we heard the senior brass talking in media (from all three services), they are falling in to the lines of Politicians that talk more on age of assets, quantities, and deterence image building. I hope they only talk that in front off politicians and media, but internally they are listening to their technicals lines that seems understood more and combat and operational readiness depends more on qualities and not quantities.

Talking on local media, they also talking on hyperbole. Just like this graphics on Pindad Sniper Rifle. Only one of them that actually can be considered anti materials gun. However the title told them as anti Tank gun:



So, it's not going to be surprising if the thinking on defense that being sold to Public more on things that can attract Image building.

 

[ChestnutTree]

However if we heard the senior brass talking in media (from all three services), they are falling in to the lines of Politicians that talk more on age of assets, quantities, and deterence image building. I hope they only talk that in front off politicians and media, but internally they are listening to their technicals lines that seems understood more and combat and operational readiness depends more on qualities and not quantities.

From my experience it is largely the cause of the generational gap and Indonesian seniority culture.

I have met officers in the rank of O-5 and above that can barely speak English or struggle to understand the concepts and theories of a 21st century battlefield. Meanwhile the majority of the younger officers I have met tend to have a better understanding of why things such as C4I or networking assets together would work better in the long run. In my opinion it's really a problem that might be solved in the passage of time as politicians and officers either retire or die off.

 

[Ananda]

In my opinion it's really a problem that might be solved in the passage of time as politicians and officers either retire or die off.

Well regeneration hopefully can do that. However there's a saying, technical merits will get you to Colonel, but to get Stars, Politics matters. This's similar within bureaucracy, your expertise can get you to Department Head. However to get in to Director General level and above you need Political support.

Well it's not in Indonesia bureaucracy alone, however when Politics become a factor to make one goes to the top, then how Political circles thinking will make you have to adjust. This sometimes that make regenerations take more times that should be.

 

[ASSAIL]

Well regeneration hopefully can do that. However there's a saying, technical merits will get you to Colonel, but to get Stars, Politics matters. This's similar within bureaucracy, your expertise can get you to Department Head. However to get in to Director General level and above you need Political support.

Well it's not in Indonesia bureaucracy alone, however when Politics become a factor to make one goes to the top, then how Political circles thinking will make you have to adjust. This sometimes that make regenerations take more times that should be.

I think that’s probably true for peacetime militaries across most nations.
What has been proven many times is that once conflict arises, lack of “technical merit” is soon uncovered and these failing politicised leaders and are replaced by true warriors.

 

[tonnyc]

I think that’s probably true for peacetime militaries across most nations.
What has been proven many times is that once conflict arises, lack of “technical merit” is soon uncovered and these failing politicised leaders and are replaced by true warriors.

We'd rather not take that approach, thank you very much.

That approach requires a serious enough conflict and that means risking a lot of young men who's just trying to serve their country and very likely losing a bunch of them.

One hopes the regeneration can happen before a conflict rather than after.

 

[ASSAIL]

We'd rather not take that approach, thank you very much.

That approach requires a serious enough conflict and that means risking a lot of young men who's just trying to serve their country and very likely losing a bunch of them.

One hopes the regeneration can happen before a conflict rather than after.

I think you have misunderstood the point of my post. I should have been clearer.
I wasn’t advocating conflict.
My point is that those who gain promotion to the highest levels during peace are not always selected on their strategic and tactical ability. They are selected because their inter reaction with government leaders gains approval, they comply with policy, their staff work is first class and they don’t question the status quo.

Leaders who question policy because it’s unfit for purpose which disregards military reality are not the friends of the GOTD rarely rise to the top. BUT
When the shooting starts peacetime leaders shortcomings are uncovered and that is why, in many historical cases, they are quickly replaced by the strategic and tactical savvy leaders whose first priority is war fighting.

There are always exceptions.

 

[swerve]

There are always exceptions.

Wilhelm Keitel . . . .

 

[ASSAIL]

Wilhelm Keitel . . . .

Yes, totally subservient to Hitler which diminished his capacity as a military leader.
I think the phenomena I outlined above gets rather skewed by autocratic regimes, The Axis of WWII/USSR.
My comments are mainly directed at functioning democratic governments where there is supposed separation between the government and the military.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yesterday the final planning conference about the Army International Games 2021 was held. Four countries: Burkina Faso, Indonesia, Peru and Saudi Arabia will participate in the Games for the first time.

The final planning conference with the participation of representatives of the host countries of the Games-2021 and the military-diplomatic corps was held in the Patriot park : Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation

The preparation of the International Army Games has reached the final stage.

eng.mil.ru

Hopefully we can see and watch this year the photos and videos of TNI-AD participating.