The Arjun Tank

[funtz]

- Power pack, Gunner’s Main Sight and Track are imported items, which work out to 58% of the cost per tank. The import content can be progressively reduced with increased production orders”.

- MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line

- The present cost of MBT Arjun is 16.80 crore.

- It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore.

- As of now all the 124 MBT Arjun production tanks is planned with M/s MTU engine integrated with M/s Renk Transmission of Germany as a power pack. The cost of MTU power pack (Engine & Transmission) was Rs. 5.2 crore, as per the last ordered price during mid-nineties.

14th report
Standing Committee On Defence
Ministry of Defense
http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/14threport.pdf

Some information on the MBT Arjun from a report which dates March 2007. The data is from 2005-06.

Does throw some light on the development status of the indigenous gunner’s sight and tracks etc.

DRDO is developing indigenous gunner’s main sight. It is likely to mature and be available beyond 124 tanks. Indigenous track is in advanced stage of development. It will be available for Arjun production tanks beyond 124 Nos.

Couple that with this

Indian defence research and development establishments are looking for joint venture partners, domestic and foreign, to co-develop and co-produce engines for the indigenously designed and built Arjun main battle tank, now entering serial production at a state-owned ordnance factory.

http://www.domain-b.com/industry/defence/20071102_drdo.htm

And you have a right direction towards the so called “indigenous MBT”.
Why are people so sentimental about going all indigenous? Does not make sense as long as some firm orders are placed, most of the tanks around from relative new comers will feature some sort of imported content or JVs or plain old reverse engineering, no need to complicate projects early on, unless you are sanctioned by most of the nations.
Eventually movement towards that area will be there as long as its economically viable (numbers, numbers, numbers).

DRDO should jump at the recent Russian tactics to delay the ToT wrt T-90 and make a final aggressive pitch for the Arjun Mk1, in good numbers the logistics can be worked out (financially), if that happens the Russians would have shot themselves one more time, I thought one of the advantages of developing indigenous tech (to a degree) was greater access to tech from other nations/firms, well guess not.

 

[kams]

funtz,
IGMS is already developed and under production by BEL.

Indigenous Gunners Main Sight for MBT

DRDO has started the project on indigenous 1500 HP engine.

DEVELOPMENT OF 1500 HP ENGINE (Underfunded as usual)

Tracks will come from L&T.

However these will be economical only if we produce them in numbers, if not same trolls will be jumping up and down in all forums saying that indigenous product is costlier than imported ones!

What a bunch of losers!

Oh, don't forget the Lahat derivative OFB displayed in Defexpo 08. Looks like that will enter production too.

 

[funtz]

ya had seen the links before and lost them, so reflected on the report instead.
Well trolls dont matter, as long as purpose of discussion is fulfilled.
Numbers are the key, indigenous - foriegn or alien production.
It will be interesting to follow up on the T-90 ToT to india, and see how that goes. Wonder why the Russians are going all grumpy, hell by the size of the order they got out of the army, they should be tying up a JV for the next generation tank projects, the army would love that

 

[eckherl]

eckherl, I am just trying to come up with some numers, lets see now,

Indian Army has 63 armoured regiments, each regiment comprising of brick of 62 tanks (45 for combat 17 for training, Attrition and replacement etc)

As of today these comprise of,

T90S - 5 regiments (@62 each - 310 total)
T72M1 - 35 Regiments (@ 55 each - 1950 total, lower than required bricks)
T-55 - 10 regiments (@55 each - 550 in total - Modernized)
Vijayantha - 11 regiments (@72 each - 790 in total - modernized)

Reserves - T-55 - 200 Vijayantha - 1000

Now lets look at the modernization plan

T-90S- 310+1000+347 - Total of 1657 - 27 Regiments, T-90S will replace all T-55 and Vijayantha (Modernized) which will move to Reserves.
T-72M1- Now here is the confusion How many will be modernized? A recent report indicates India signed a deal with Bumar of Poland for 1000 tank engines. Lets assume all 1950 will be modernized.

So total - 1657+1950=3607 = 58 Regiments (Assuming full brick of 62 tanks).

That leaves 5 regiments short, 124 Arjuns on order make 2 regiments, so worst case scenario, we should expect order for 3 more regiments of Arjun. That comes to Total of 310 Arjun.

If we assume all T-72s will not be modernized, then we can expect more order for Arjun.

By 2020, even the modernized T-72's will be one their out, so that's where Arjun Mk2 will come in.

I know, lot of assumption, but that is the starting point for a debate.

Thank you for the numbers and information, inregards to the T-55`s, one would assume that they would be the first to be phased out. Inregards to the Vijayantha, do you have a good link or could you steer me towards some good reference material.

 

[n21]

Yes - I can see your point with that, especially inregards to logistical support. Apparently there is a so called rift between Russia and India due in part because of maingun technology transfer for the 125mm, why would this be a issue when DRDO can manufacture a more complex rifled bore maingun, is the wear factor a hurdle that India may be trying to get beyond with smooth bore barrels.

Fitting an Indian rifle gun on a Russian T-90 would open up a whole can of worms.For example Arjun's gun follows the western single piece ammo concept. If you consider other aspects like FCS,stabilization, integration with the thermals etc,it would be anyone's guess about the time and resource that needs to be invested.

DRDO claims that the rifle gun has equivalent-to-better barrel life than the T-90 smoothbore. IA has never complained about the gun. Hence I would consider barrel life as a non-issue.

 

[eckherl]

Fitting an Indian rifle gun on a Russian T-90 would open up a whole can of worms.For example Arjun's gun follows the western single round concept. If you consider other aspects like FCS,stabilization, integration with the thermals etc,it would be anyone's guess about the time and resource that needs to be invested.

DRDO claims that the rifle gun has equivalent-to-better barrel life than the T-90 smoothbore. IA has never complained about the gun. Hence I would consider barrel life as a non-issue.

Then is it a false statement that Russia and India are at odds with each other over metallurgy properties with the 125mm. I was not saying that you should stick a DRDO 120mm into the T-90, my comment was that if India can manufacture a 120mm rifled gun then I do not think that they would have a issue manufacturing a 125mm smoothbore. And I agree that I do not think that india wants to start adding bustle mounted auto loaders to their T-90s.

 

[n21]

Then is it a false statement that Russia and India are at odds with each other over metallurgy properties with the 125mm. I was not saying that you should stick a DRDO 120mm into the T-90, my comment was that if India can manufacture a 120mm rifled gun then I do not think that they would have a issue manufacturing a 125mm smoothbore. And I agree that I do not think that india wants to start adding bustle mounted auto loaders to their T-90s.

Actually the T-90 deal is a whole mess like all other IA's armour programs.
The problem is not in DRDO producing a smoothbore,rather IA is not ready to wait for such a development to occur.DRDO will not develop a smoothbore gun,unless IA asks for it. DRDO and IA have a strange relation.IA treats DRDO as just another "company",hence they share a buyer seller relation!

Due to usual delayed planning,IA's armour is in a extreme need of upgrade.IA wants T-90 to have been inducted yesterday. They hurried the T-90 induction,but Russia delayed the TOT on T-90.
The local assembly plants are not ready yet to churn out in the required numbers. Hence IA was forced to put an another order of 350+ tanks with the Russians.

In recent times there have been huge issues with contracts given to the Russians.So much so that the Navy chief has publicly called for defence relation with the Russians should be reviewed!

The issue over barrel tech transfer is very much a possibility.The Russians had couple of years ago refused to integrate an Indian round with T-90,without IA paying through it's nose.IA had to ask DRDO to do it!
They have been shooting themselves for quite a while now.

 

[kams]

Thank you for the numbers and information, inregards to the T-55`s, one would assume that they would be the first to be phased out. Inregards to the Vijayantha, do you have a good link or could you steer me towards some good reference material.

BR has good info. Here is the link clicky

One more clicky

Some pictures, image credit Vijay Simbha

WRT T-90 ToT. India paid for the ToT of Gun/Armour. DRDO will get involved only if Russians keep refusing to transfer the technology and Army asks for DRDO help, instead of plain importing the guns and armour. Even then Russians can play hardball citing IP issues.

Sigh..

 

[eckherl]

BR has good info. Here is the link clicky

One more clicky

Some pictures, image credit Vijay Simbha

WRT T-90 ToT. India paid for the ToT of Gun/Armour. DRDO will get involved only if Russians keep refusing to transfer the technology and Army asks for DRDO help, instead of plain importing the guns and armour. Even then Russians can play hardball citing IP issues.

Sigh..

Many thanks Kams for sharing this with me, T-90S in service with India is supposed to have K-5 armor tiles while the rumors of Algerian T-90S tanks may in fact have Relikt armor tiles, have you heard if there is any disgruntlement between Russia and India inregards to this.

 

[kams]

Many thanks Kams for sharing this with me, T-90S in service with India is supposed to have K-5 armor tiles while the rumors of Algerian T-90S tanks may in fact have Relikt armor tiles, have you heard if there is any disgruntlement between Russia and India inregards to this.

Haven't heard anuthing to that effect. Considering that India ordered second lot of 330 T90 from Russia last year, I don't think that's an issue.

 

[eckherl]

Haven't heard anuthing to that effect. Considering that India ordered second lot of 330 T90 from Russia last year, I don't think that's an issue.

Thank you, and it is good to have you back on a more frequent basis.

 

[kams]

Thank you, and it is good to have you back on a more frequent basis.

Hehe, just enjoying bit of free time after backbreaking 6 weeks...60+ hrs a week.

 

[kams]

Defensenews is reporting that Indian Army has invited bids for Firecontrol systems for 1000 T-72's as a part of modernizing package. Sagem and Thales, France; Elbit, Israel; Bumar, Poland; and Rosoboronexport, Russia are invited to submit their proposals.

 

[Titanium]

How come DRDO after so many years of attempted MBT, not able to come up a decent FCS for T-72 upgrade??

How difficult it is to build FCS, I understand that mettulargy, armour is a long drwan prodcess, but India being prowess in software should had no difficulty in coming up with decent FCS!!!

 

[Chrom]

How come DRDO after so many years of attempted MBT, not able to come up a decent FCS for T-72 upgrade??

How difficult it is to build FCS, I understand that mettulargy, armour is a long drwan prodcess, but India being prowess in software should had no difficulty in coming up with decent FCS!!!

Knowing indian procurement system, i wouldnt wonder if such tender is only meant to calm down DRDO prices for FCS. I also wouldnt wonder if, in reality, indian MOD just seek a good partner for DRDO to control costs and avoid most blatant corruption within.

 

[kay_man]

HEY GUYS,

Did u check out the new arjun mbt video on you tube?.....its awsome , its a recording from an informative national t.v (doordarshan) program about the indian army.

- It tells tht 60% parts are homemade and rest are imported . and tht is beacuse of the small inital order of 124 tanks, as and when more tanks are ordered those parts can be easily produced inhouse.
-it has interviews of the crew and the history of the tank.
-BUT MOST OF ALL U GUYS GOTTA CHECK OUT THE VIDEOS OF THE ARJUN AT FULL SPEED AND FIRING ROUNDS ON THE MOVE IN DAY AND NIGHT........THTS SUPER COOOOOOOOL !!!

-i guess the pro arjun lobby was right and now they hav been verified .India has a free press so u may rest assured tht this is true and not just government propaganda.

The arjun is without a doubt among the top 5 mbts in the world today.:nutkick

 

[kay_man]

I guess this is the first ever video of the arjun firing live rounds . just type arjun mbt in you-tube. its a 10.45 mins video, u guys will definately enjoy this 1 .

 

[Generalissimo]

A question abou the Arjun: Why does it have a straight rather than slanted or rounded turret in the front? I thought that almost all tanks after WWII did away with that concept and it was obsolete.

 

[kay_man]

A question abou the Arjun: Why does it have a straight rather than slanted or rounded turret in the front? I thought that almost all tanks after WWII did away with that concept and it was obsolete.

actually its the nature of the kanchan armour that requires flat surface. it is composite armour wherein the ceramic plates are arranged parallel to each other and for max protection the ammunition needs to hit these perpendicularly. hence the straight surface.

u cannot compare the straightness of armour with ww2 tanks come on!!! ,
even as of today how many tanks can take a point blank hit from a t-72 and remain unscathered !!

i think u should read some earlier posts from some experts , they hav done a wonerful jobin explaining the armour.

 

[Chrom]

actually its the nature of the kanchan armour that requires flat surface. it is composite armour wherein the ceramic plates are arranged parallel to each other and for max protection the ammunition needs to hit these perpendicularly. hence the straight surface.

"Nature" = drawback in that case.

u cannot compare the straightness of armour with ww2 tanks come on!!! ,
even as of today how many tanks can take a point blank hit from a t-72 and remain unscathered !!

Every modern tank, and even upgraded T-72 itself.

i think u should read some earlier posts from some experts , they hav done a wonerful jobin explaining the armour.

Aye. Sadly, without much specifics about armor, with unbelievable tales about the gun. The only things we know what 100% works and on-time are imported ones - i.e. FCS, engine, etc.