Submarine news

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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There has been discussion on which company will provide the systems integration for Sea 1000. The latest APDR devotes a couple of pages to the subject.
Given that Raytheon has been active in Australia both for Collins and the AWD and that Lockmart seem to be the integrator of choice for the USN and many euros, is there an opinion amongst those who have experience in this field on who is likely to get the contract and either or, who would be most suitable?
 

protoplasm

Active Member
Reasons for submarine choice

This article in the Australian would seem to indicate that technology decisions played a significant part in the decision making for the bids. My question is how much technical information was really in the bids, as I thought that most of that gets sorted out later on through the design process?

The sound of silence - why Germany lost its subs bid
 

protoplasm

Active Member
The article for those who don't have access

It was the smallest of sounds, too soft for human ears but deemed loud enough to potentially doom an Australian submarine.

Two weeks ago, behind closed doors in a shipyard in the German port of Kiel, the secrets behind Australia’s $150 billion submarine decision were finally revealed. It was a moment that left the Germans stunned. They were told for the first time that they had lost the bid because their proposed Aust*ralian submarine had an “un*acceptable’’ level of “radiated noise’’. In the world of submarines, noise equals potential detection and death, but when the Germans pressed the Australian officials in the room that day to explain *further they were rebuffed. That information was classified, the Australians told them. In a short and testy exchange, the truth became clear — France had won the largest defence *contract in the nation’s history *because it had best achieved the sound of silence. As a spying platform against China, and in the case of war, the proposed French *submarine was seen to be more stealthy than those proposed by Germany or Japan.

But this is a $150bn judgment call — the construction phase is worth $50bn, with the sustainability of the submarines running to an extra $100bn over the life of the vessels — that the Germans fiercely *contest, at least in private. It is also one that threatens to undermine *relations with Berlin in the same way as the rejection of Japan’s bid has harmed Canberra’s ties with Tokyo.

The confidential debriefing for the failed German submarine bid took place inauspiciously on Friday the 13th this month, inside the historic Kiel shipyards. Five Australian defence offic*ials, led by the director-general of the Future Submarine Program Commodore Mike Houghton, stood in front of 11 senior representatives of German shipbuilder TKMS and representatives from the German ministries of defence, economic affairs and the foreign office. The presence of the government officials reflected what *Germany had invested in the bid, up to and including lobbying by Chancellor Angela Merkel. The Australian delegation, which one German observer described as “sheepish in their body language’’, handed out a *docu*ment marked “PROTECTED — Sensitive”, summarising the *reasons for its decision.

At the same time, on the other side of the world, the head of the Future Submarine Program, Rear Admiral Greg Sammut, was leading an Australian delegation on May 12 and 13 around various ministries in Tokyo, including the Ministry of Defence, to tell Japan why its bid failed. Stealth issues also played a key role in Japan’s defeat. If the Australian officials in Kiel hoped the Germans would be a passive audience, they were quite mistaken. Led by TKMS deputy chief executive Dieter Rottsieper, the Germans doggedly questioned every key assumption the Austral*ians had made. The Australian delegation began the two-hour debrief by assuring the Germans that the decision to reject their bid was not swayed by politics, the media or other factors. It was based entirely on the need to choose a regionally superior submarine that could be sustained through its life in Australia.

But, they said, the truth was that despite Germany putting forth an excellent plan for the local defence industry to sustain the boats, the submarine itself was not good enough. The Germans were told that the “critical issue’’ was that their submarine was too noisy. Specific*ally they were told, with deliberate vagueness, that the boat would be too noisy at a particular frequency that was very important to the Royal Australian Navy — an *apparent reference to the submarine’s ability to collect close-to-shore intelligence without detection. The Germans countered by asking what the frequency was and why it was not emphasised in the bidding process. The Australians responded that this information was classi*fied, but that they were not convinced TKMS understood the significance of this issue for *Australia. They said the problems with stealth meant that the German proposal could never have deliv*ered a regionally superior submarine for Australia. The Germans persisted, asking where the excess noise was coming from — internal machinery, the propellers, the hull? Again the Australian offic*ials declined to comment. One German observer said: “The might of Germany’s military-industrial complex could easily solve a technical issue like this if only the Australians had been more forthcoming about the issue itself before we submitted the bid.”

The successful French bidder, DCNS, worked hard *behind the scenes last year to cast doubt in the minds of Australian officials about the noise level of the TKMS *submarine. DCNS modelled its estimate of the noise projection of the proposed German boat using the noise signature of its own, smaller, Scorpene-class submarine. It then compared this estimate with the noise signature for the quieter new French Barracuda submar*ines upon which the French-*Australian submarine will be substantially based. The French also loudly touted their revolutionary pump jet propulsion system, which will replace propellers on the Australian boat, the Shortfin Barracuda. Paris claimed this would give its submarine a higher tactical *silent speed than the German Type 216 submarine and Japan’s evolved Soryu-class submarine, both of which would have propellers. Australian officials were said to have been highly impressed by the fact that when the Barracuda submarine accelerated, the French design was significantly quieter than either the German or the Japanese alternatives. While the German delegation at the Kiel briefing was told that noise was the critical factor in the final decision, they were also *informed about other perceived problems with the German bid. The Australians told them the pre-concept design submitted to Defence at the end of November last year was “not balanced” and design optimisation “was not achie ved”. They said they had reser*vations about the safety of the proposed lithium ion batteries that were to be installed on both the German and the Japanese sub*marines. Both those nations maintain that lithium ion batteries, which are four times more efficient than trad*itional lead acid batteries, are safe, despite small fires that have occurred in those batteries in hobby equipment, cars and *airlines. In March, France publicly warned about the dangers lithium ion batteries might pose in a submarine. The Australian delegation made it clear in Kiel that it too had reservations.

The Australians also expressed scepticism about the ability of TKMS to upscale the size of both its Siemens motors and its *submarine hulls to build a 4000-plus tonne submarine — almost double the size of previous sub*marines built by the company. In addition, the Germans were told that their cost projections were overly optimistic, including their claim that there would be only a negligible premium for building all of the submarines in Australia. Germany’s bid claimed that the price of building eight submarines (not including the combat system) would be just less than $12bn, while 12 *submarines including the combat system would cost $20bn. Defence sources say the Australian delegation told the Germans in the Kiel debriefing that this cost estimate did not *reflect the technical challenges and was “well below expectations’’. TKMS had argued that building all 12 submarines in Australia would cost no more than building them all in Germany. This contrasted with internal government estimates of about a 15 per cent premium on costs for an Australian build. The Australian officials debriefed the Germans that there was not enough analysis in their bid proposal to make a convincing case that the premium for an all-Australian bid would be so low.

After an awkward, sometimes tense and occasionally feisty two-hour meeting, the Australian dele*gation and the German ship*builders went to lunch. The lunch was no less tense, *according to those present. The Germans who attended were far from satisfied with the *explanations they had received. “This has caused significant damage to the relationship,” one told The Australian. “We don’t think the material was assessed fairly and we don’t think our bid was considered properly. “We are very disappointed.”
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There has been discussion on which company will provide the systems integration for Sea 1000. The latest APDR devotes a couple of pages to the subject.
Given that Raytheon has been active in Australia both for Collins and the AWD and that Lockmart seem to be the integrator of choice for the USN and many euros, is there an opinion amongst those who have experience in this field on who is likely to get the contract and either or, who would be most suitable?
From what I've seen, I'd say LM look pretty good, wasn't too impressed with a lot of what Raytheon did on AWD. They had some great and a lot of other good people but the overall corporate strategy and more to the point, empire building and associated back stabbing, left a sour taste and was detrimental to the project as a whole. What usually happens in Australia is you get most of the same people going from project to project, its just the management / contract structure and the senior people at the top who change.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This article in the Australian would seem to indicate that technology decisions played a significant part in the decision making for the bids. My question is how much technical information was really in the bids, as I thought that most of that gets sorted out later on through the design process?

The sound of silence - why Germany lost its subs bid
One thing that has crossed my mind is how much intelligence has been gathered on joint exercises and operations with recent French and German submarine designs in service in the region. If for instance the RAN knew the Malaysian Scorpions were quieter than the German boats serving India and South Korea, or maybe that the data provided by the French was more representative of the RANs real world experience, they logically would have given it more weight.

On the industrial side however it is a simple truth that German project management delivers far better results in Australia with Australian development and production teams than French, or pretty much anyone else's does. This is not just defence but I saw it a lot in automotive as well, with the Germans, you knew exactly what was expected of you and you could rely on them to deliver their part as well, no surprises, no blame, just solutions and results.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
When it's all said and done a decision has been made, Right or wrong it is far better then no decision at all being made or said decision being made at a tme that would see our Submarine service dissapear before we get the new boats.

Not sure on the issue with the process as the only experience in business I have is the purchase of a cake shop atm, Could the Germans have solved any perceived issue? Im all but certain they could, Did we have the time to do so? No idea, Was there a risk in pointing out a possible sound issue that no one knows about? I dont know.

All we can do is review the process to make sure we didn't stuff anything up, hope the new government that is all but garaunteed to win this year doesnt rip up the deal and use the time between known and first steel cutting to reduce every risk that we can perceive.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
When it's all said and done a decision has been made, Right or wrong it is far better then no decision at all being made or said decision being made at a tme that would see our Submarine service dissapear before we get the new boats.

Not sure on the issue with the process as the only experience in business I have is the purchase of a cake shop atm, Could the Germans have solved any perceived issue? Im all but certain they could, Did we have the time to do so? No idea, Was there a risk in pointing out a possible sound issue that no one knows about? I dont know.

All we can do is review the process to make sure we didn't stuff anything up, hope the new government that is all but garaunteed to win this year doesnt rip up the deal and use the time between known and first steel cutting to reduce every risk that we can perceive.
During the Super Ikara program the development team approached and liaised with the RANs submarine group to create a realistic escape and evasion model so as to evolve counters to it. During this process the team determined that the RANs stated techniques were not as effective as they could be and as such went back to the submarine group with the data and suggestions of more optimal ways to evade air launched torpedoes. They were met with wry smiles, although the RAN were impressed that the model had identified the issues with the information the RAN had provided.

Moral of the story, not only is the vast majority of things about submarines in the public domain incorrect, information provided to industry and even other areas of defence is often far complete, if not deliberately misleading. Everything about the submarine capability is held very close, if not classified, then still not openly discussed and very much need to know. For instance I worked on engineering on the Collins class maintenance contract for several years but do not know what many of the boats operation capabilities. To this day I do not know the deep diving depth, range, maximum, cruise or patrol speeds of the class, I do not know the operating parameters on most of the systems, I only knew what I needed to know to do my job.

In contrast on the destroyer project I had visibility of alot more from before steel was cut and saw that much more of what was public domain on the specification, capability and performance was not too far off the mark. Submarines are special and what makes them special is keeping what they can and can't actually do as secret as possible. It doesn't matter if the other side over or under estimates what you can do because you win either way. If they assume you are more capable than you are they need to dedicate more effort to countering you, if the under estimate you, then you get to do more of what you need to do without them being able to counter you.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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there's quite a bit in that article re the selection process on tech issues which is just plain wrong.

some of it is just nonsense and demonstrates a journo being fed
 

rockitten

Member
there's quite a bit in that article re the selection process on tech issues which is just plain wrong.

some of it is just nonsense and demonstrates a journo being fed
For example, the comments about Li batteries.

It is interesting to see the "internal crewing space" issue is not mentioned anymore. Wonder how much bull crap the "sources" are spoon-feeding the general public.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Li batteries are interesting as, if the Shortfin is able to deliver the required performance with lead acid type, their subsequent replacement with Li or even more advanced types in the future should deliver even better performance. This would be dependent on a number of factors, including stability but if factored in during the detail design phase it could provide a significant increase in battery performance for a given volume, or the same performance while freeing up volume and weight for other improvements come upgrade time.
 

Oberon

Member
The main point I got from the article is that Australia required a regionally superior submarine which only the Shortfin Barracuda could satisfy.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The main point I got from the article is that Australia required a regionally superior submarine which only the Shortfin Barracuda could satisfy.
Yes and unless you are in the game, which I'm not any more, it will be perhaps decades before we know exactly why. It wasn't until Steel, Spys and Spin that it was confirmed that the reason IKL missed out was they ignored RAN conops on the basis they didn't believe the RAN would actually operate the boats the way they said they would. This resulted in insufficient battery capacity to support the required hotel power at transit or patrol speeds, literally this would have required all non essential personnel to remain in their bunks for the duration of the patrol and the boats to run minimum/essential systems only, to conserve power. While fine for patrols not exceeding 72 hours or so in the Baltic was completely unworkable for an open ocean submarine that had to transit thousands of nautical miles just to reach their area of operations.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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The main point I got from the article is that Australia required a regionally superior submarine which only the Shortfin Barracuda could satisfy.
the press and the broader public still don't understand that a downselect is not a technical selection - hence why some of the post assessment editorials are a tad nonsensical

when you debrief a losing bidder you don't get into some of the detail that is being proffered as factual in these articles.

unfort some of these hacks aren't smart enough to realise that what they claim in some areas is just nonsense. its not how the debriefs are done - and some of the material facts claimed are not discussed either.

downselects are not tech evaluations
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Just when one thinks there are no more surprises. Is this proposal insurance to make sure Soryu doesn't get a second chance when the real details get discussed.DCNS proposes naval defense alliance with Thyssenkrupp - Sueddeutsche
Not likely. Seem's to be based on commercial interests. Germany is hands down the global expert in building conventional submarines overseas effiecently, bringing them into the fold gains that expertice (if they choose to utilise it) reducing any risks to the program. Said risk reduction reduces any cost blow outs (that could hurt there profit's) which in turn's reduces any negative outlook (which makes other buyer's take a more positive look).

No conspiracy against Japan here.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Japanese Companies cool attitude contributed to their lost in Sea1000?

A Japanese article reported that the the cold attitude shown by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries probably contributed to the lost of their Sea1000 bid. See : http://diamond.jp/articles/-/73594

A very brief translation of this Japanese language Report:

“THE REASON WHY THE [JAPANESE] DEFENSE INDUSTRY IS APATHETIC ABOUT LONG-SOUGHT ARMS EXPORTS”

A senior manager whose company produces submarines has explained that Japan’s arms export industry has not had to face international competition for many years. In May 2015 the Japanese Government made a firm decision to participate in the campaign to sell the technically advanced Soryu submarine to Australia.

But, surprisingly, the responses from defence companies was far from enthusiastic. In particular, MHI and KHI’s submarine sectors were not enthusiastic. This lack of enthusiasm was apparent in three ways:

"First reason is" building submarines for export is "unprofitable"

"The second reason is a lack of capacity" in terms of as manpower and equipment/facilities, and

"Third, this is not a story limited to the submarine," which is a the military industrial market is shrinking.
 

rockitten

Member
Submarine risks questioned when they are still on the drawing board | afr.com

The whole article is kind of BS, but one line got my attention:

"The Australian recently revealed the Turnbull government only told the Germans their sub had a small but "unacceptable" level of "radiated noise" after it was eliminated. The article said the French worked hard behind the scenes to cast doubt about its rival by projecting noise signatures for its own existing Scorpene onto the proposed German vessel. Yet this submarine would have some different equipment, including an entirely new diesel engine design."
Well, the 6 diesel layout in the original proposal is really stupid, so 3 or 4 more powerful diesel engine is a better idea. But why not the new submarine diesel engine from MTU?

In the worse case, we may ended up repeating the story of Hedemora diesel engine on Collins..... yield to the Swedish/French's hard-selling of their homemade products rather than cherry-picking the gears RAN really preferred........
 

pussertas

Active Member
Indian Submarine Disclosures

"The Age" today, 10 December, 2016, has an article regarding the 'leaking; of data on the new Indian Submarine project:.

The claim the Australian 'leakier' works in Senator Neck X's office.

:wah
 
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