Status of Mexican Navy

[contedicavour]

Inter-service rivalry. The air force has one squadron of F-5E covering the capital, trainers, COIN aircraft & transports. The navy got some E-2, & found a lot more drug smugglers & the like transiting Mexican territory than they expected. The Air Farce couldn't do anything about it without either moving their F-5Es (politically unacceptable) or getting more fighters & their own AEW (they'd never consider co-operating with the navy!). The navy saw an opportunity to put one over on the AF, by getting their own fighters, using the unauthorised transits as an excuse. Su-27 was chosen largely for its range, I think.

I've read somewhere that the AF is not an independent armed force but more a branch of the Army. Is it true ?
To understand the use of the Sukhois i'd be curious to know if they'll use AA-11s IR short range missiles or carry AA10 or AA12/R77. If their job is just long range CAP to intercept what the E2C finds on its radars, than AA11s will be enough.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

I've read somewhere that the AF is not an independent armed force but more a branch of the Army. Is it true ?
To understand the use of the Sukhois i'd be curious to know if they'll use AA-11s IR short range missiles or carry AA10 or AA12/R77. If their job is just long range CAP to intercept what the E2C finds on its radars, than AA11s will be enough.

cheers

Doesn't anybody think Su-27s are bit of overkill to track and shoot down Beach Barons?

 

[contedicavour]

Doesn't anybody think Su-27s are bit of overkill to track and shoot down Beach Barons?

You are certainly right. Though they are long range, and unless a CN-235 or an ATR-72MPA can be fast & armed enough to shoot down fast turboprop planes, who could take charge of controlling such a huge airspace ?
There are few jets with good enough range, Tornado ADVs could also do the job (long range combat air patrol over the North Sea and the Mediterranean when we had them in the Italian Air Force).
Alternatively, the Mexicans should buy lots more of used F16s and position them on several airfields to do the same job as much fewer SU27s on fewer airfields.
Still I maintain that the Navy's priority should be to reach 40+ OPVH numbers and buy sufficient numbers of embarked light helos, not play air defence.

cheers

 

[Rich]

Well seriously what country is a threat to them?
If they got into serious trouble they would ask their northern neighbor for help

I sure hope the Mexicans aren't hoping for a wave of support from their northern neighbors should they get in a shooting war, most of all if they started it. Besides, we dont have a defense treaty with them anyways do we?

With their oil revenues and increased tax base from all of the south of the border industries that have moved in they should be able to afford at least a decent frigate navy with decent ASW,SSM, and AAW, suites. Also another point I'd like to make is they are within sailing range of some decent 2,000 ton submarine navies, including type 209, and improved 209, level boats.

Procurements should be based on what can "possibly" happen not on what "probably" can happen. Just imagine how long it would take Mexico to build a "Canada" level navy from this current sad state of affairs?

 

[swerve]

I've read somewhere that the AF is not an independent armed force but more a branch of the Army. Is it true ?
...
cheers

A bit complicated. There's a Secretariat (Ministry) of National Defence (Secretaría de la Defensa Nacional) , controlling the Armed Forces of Mexico (Fuerzas Armadas de Mexico), which consist of the Army (Ejercito) & Air Force (Fuerza Aerea). But the navy (Armada) is controlled by the Marine Secretariat (Secretaría de Marina) - a separate ministry.

There used to be one ministry, Secretaría de Guerra y Marina, but it was split in 1937.

 

[swerve]

Doesn't anybody think Su-27s are bit of overkill to track and shoot down Beach Barons?

Of course! But what they had was too slow, so they (fairly reasonably) demanded & got permission to buy something faster, & the details were down to the admirals. I'm sure the choice was heavily influenced by the desire to have the best (or at least the one with most impressive fighters) in Mexico. The other short-listed fighter was the Gripen. Second-hand was available, so they could have had more for the same price, making up for its shorter range (could be split between more bases) & it's cheaper to operate . . . but it isn't 3 times the size of the Air Forces fighters.

 

[contedicavour]

A bit complicated. There's a Secretariat (Ministry) of National Defence (Secretaría de la Defensa Nacional) , controlling the Armed Forces of Mexico (Fuerzas Armadas de Mexico), which consist of the Army (Ejercito) & Air Force (Fuerza Aerea). But the navy (Armada) is controlled by the Marine Secretariat (Secretaría de Marina) - a separate ministry.

There used to be one ministry, Secretaría de Guerra y Marina, but it was split in 1937.

Ok thanks, now it's clearer !
Btw does anybody know what missiles the Mexican Flankers are supposed to carry once in service ?

cheers

 

[Centauro]

The MX Navy started a modernization programe in the FOX administration. Since it started they have eliminated lots of old ships from their inventory and replaced them with their own OPV ships. In the last six years the navy bought 100 BTR-60s, 80 Ural trucks, 45 MI-17s, Upgraded the Casa C-212 and converted them to surveillance planes, 2 SAAR missile boats,2 Hawkeye E-2C, 2 AS 565 Panther helicopters, IGLA AA systems, 40 fast combat 90 boats, 2 Newport amphibious warfare ships. They also upgraded their frigates and right now they are fully operational. There is also an order of SU-27s to cover the national waters. The purchase of Mi-24 attack/transport helicopters i salso in their list. The navy has also started projects such as the development of a short range missile, an assault rifle, mobile radar systems to name a few.

Here are a few videos of the Mexican Navy:

IGLA systems, Newports, BTRs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAv63UAYQw

Bolkow BO-105 Super Five:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z_LI3hlaUQ

Mexican scientists develop weaponry for the Navy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-jkF1WCSMs

Navy Special Operations units '' FES''
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqk1sxSC1YI

 

[contedicavour]

The MX Navy started a modernization programe in the FOX administration. Since it started they have eliminated lots of old ships from their inventory and replaced them with their own OPV ships. In the last six years the navy bought 100 BTR-60s, 80 Ural trucks, 45 MI-17s, Upgraded the Casa C-212 and converted them to surveillance planes, 2 SAAR missile boats,2 Hawkeye E-2C, 2 AS 565 Panther helicopters, IGLA AA systems, 40 fast combat 90 boats, 2 Newport amphibious warfare ships. They also upgraded their frigates and right now they are fully operational. There is also an order of SU-27s to cover the national waters. The purchase of Mi-24 attack/transport helicopters i salso in their list. The navy has also started projects such as the development of a short range missile, an assault rifle, mobile radar systems to name a few.

Here are a few videos of the Mexican Navy:

IGLA systems, Newports, BTRs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoAv63UAYQw

Bolkow BO-105 Super Five:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z_LI3hlaUQ

Mexican scientists develop weaponry for the Navy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-jkF1WCSMs

Navy Special Operations units '' FES''
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqk1sxSC1YI

Wow, the Navy isn't only going after the air force with its SU27 order, it is order trying to replace the Army or what ? Does a Marine force require BTR60s when the army itself has no MBTs and only wheeled AIFVs ?
I understand the logic of the Panther helo and Newport LST orders.
I have more trouble understanding the logic of the MI17 deal, why don't they focus on light to medium helos that can be embarked on the OPVHs and Knox FFs and that would be better than the unarmed and too light B0105s ?

cheers

 

[Tupadre]

I'm a little surprised at the lack of modernization for the Mexican navy given their extensive coastline on two oceans. I mean I knew they were no major power but didn't know they were a missile poor Patrol boat navy. Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Argentina, and of course Brazil, have all put more resources and sound theory into their naval procurements.

In fact, apart from Brazil and Chile, the mexican navy is becoming one of the most modern navy in latin america, is has a very ambitious plan for building more OPV, logistic support ships, patrol boats, and is developing sufrace search radars, a camera with a Flir, an optronic fire control system for 40 and 57 mm guns and even a short range antiship missile.

In you want to campare Mexico with countries like Peru or Venezuela, it´s not just. Mexico has no external enemies, not even Cuba or Venezuela and their defence matters are more orientated into internal security, anti terrorism, anti drug and human relief operations.
Sud america has a long history of border disputes and arms race, wich has costed them too much money, and that is why Mexico in most of the aspects is a much more developed country like them.

Ok thanks, now it's clearer !
Btw does anybody know what missiles the Mexican Flankers are supposed to carry once in service ?cheers

First we have to wait until these flankers are in Mexico. Unofficially, in mexican defence forums some sourcers suggest that a mixture of SU 27UBK modernized from the russian air force and SU 30 multirol fighters are under consideration.

The Flankers are planed to guard the rich oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, not to chase or shoot down drug planes. Much of the mexican economy depends on the oil exports, an squadron of Flankers will serve as a disuasive force for any kind of aerial intruder.

 

[contedicavour]

In order to protect the offshore oil installations of Pemex, wouldn't it have been more practical to buy more OPVHs, or eventually even proper light multi-role FFGs to replace the DDs/Bronstein/Knox ships ?

Flankers could patrol above the oil installations for a limited time (unless Mexico is planning to buy so many that it could afford to have permanent combat air patrol above the rigs ? ), while it would be feasible to have a couple of OPVHs always patrolling close to the oil installations (out of a total OPVH force of 20+ for example).

cheers

 

[Tupadre]

At any time we have al last 2 OPV and several fast patrol boats al the area. You can not keep a ship at sea at any time, it needs to return to harbour for oil, goods, water, etc, and specially a large boat at see consumes tons of diesel.
On the other hand you can keep at ready to take off at any time a pair of Flankers that will reach their targets in minutes, even more if there is an E-2C in the area.
Recently the mexican navy in partnership with Pemex has adquired three Raytheon Sentynel radars, that will be used to survey key areas of the Gulf oil installations.

A frigate or an OPV armed with short or medium range SAM`s can protect a limited area, a squadron of Flankers, backed by the E-2C and the Sentunel radars can cover a much larger area.

 

[contedicavour]

At any time we have al last 2 OPV and several fast patrol boats al the area. You can not keep a ship at sea at any time, it needs to return to harbour for oil, goods, water, etc, and specially a large boat at see consumes tons of diesel.
On the other hand you can keep at ready to take off at any time a pair of Flankers that will reach their targets in minutes, even more if there is an E-2C in the area.
Recently the mexican navy in partnership with Pemex has adquired three Raytheon Sentynel radars, that will be used to survey key areas of the Gulf oil installations.

A frigate or an OPV armed with short or medium range SAM`s can protect a limited area, a squadron of Flankers, backed by the E-2C and the Sentunel radars can cover a much larger area.

If I understand correctly the government believes that the main threat to the oil installations is from aircrafts, hence the need for Flankers ?
My understanding is that the threat would mostly come from ships (for example by terrorists trying to kidnap employees or trying to blow up installations), hence my priority on strengthening the Navy's naval assets, and their embarked helos.

cheers

 

[Tupadre]

If I understand correctly the government believes that the main threat to the oil installations is from aircrafts, hence the need for Flankers ?
My understanding is that the threat would mostly come from ships (for example by terrorists trying to kidnap employees or trying to blow up installations), hence my priority on strengthening the Navy's naval assets, and their embarked helos.

cheers
1 Day Ago 10:37 PM

Well, as I posted before, rhe Navy has at any time at last 2 OPV in the area, backed by several smaller vessels like the swedish CB 90 fast patrol boat, and the two ex-Aliya missile boats, wich are based in Coatzacoalcos.
Recently two new OPV of an improved design have been comssioned, the 1680 tons ARM Oaxaca and ARM California, and we have another two of this time under construction.
The navy has the goal of 30 modern OPV in the two fleets, gulf of Mexico and Pacific. Currently we have 6 Spanish build Halcon ,wich are now some old and their performance in heavies seas was never satisfactoried. 4 Holzinger OPV build between 1989 and 1994, and 4 Justo Sierra class -one is in repair after a serious fire- and 4 Durango class, plus 2 of the New Oaxaca class.
So,this means that the navy needs at last some 18 OPV with their light helo for the next ten years.
About the Old destroyersand Bronstein class frigates, their tactical value is minimal so they are now solely used for training.
Perhaps the Navy would take two or three used frigates if they have the chance. The Oliver Hazard Perry even with their Harpoon/Standar launcher removed would be great ships for our navy.The retain their ASW sensors and torpedo tubes, with the 76 mm and 20mm CIWS Phalanx. This ships would very useful as large patrol vessels and if you add them a RAM launcher , their AAW capability would be reinforced, perhaps just enough by the mexican needs.

Or maybe the Navy could just get rid of the old combat vessels and replace them with more OPV of and advanced design and weapons suit capability.

 

[contedicavour]

Interesting. Doesn't the Flanker acquisition programme eat up all the funds that would be needed for a second hand OHP FFG acquisition or for an increase in the OPVH funding so as to reach the required 30 ships ?
I'm also a bit puzzled by the Saar IV acquisition (the 2 missile boats). How does that fit with the navy's current priorities which are for big oceangoing patrol ships with helo facilities ?
Last but not least, what is the Mexican Air Force planning to do ? In a thread in the air forces section of this forum we are discussing about the potential acquisition of several second hand USN F18s.

cheers

 

[Tupadre]

About the "potencial" adquisition of second hand F-18 for the USAF frankly I tell you this. The "rumor" was realesed by an air force member wich post in a mexican forum, he seems to be an honorable person, but in the past there has been other "rumors" that never materiliized, including in 2003 the purchase of up to 48 F-5E/F from Switzerland and Saudi Arabia. As long as there is not an official statement from the Mexican Air Force, the US DOD, frankly I don´t believe nothing.
And honestly I am not an expert about jet fighters, but what I have heard about the FA 18 is that is too sophisticated and expensive to operate for an air force like the FAM. Perhaps a simpler and cheaper fighter like the Gripen, or Mig 29SMS, or even more F-5E with a good overhaul and upgrade would fit in the FAM needs.

Well, about the Flankers and the funds for more oceanic vessels. The cost of each Knox frigate was about 7 million US DLLS, plus many more than we spended in bringing those ships aperational again , including the modernization of some of their command systems.
Each ex LST Newport class -we have two- costed about 14 million dollars. I think that if the US DOD offer Mexico two or three OHP frigates, it would be at a simbolic token price, of course with the Standar/Harpoon launcher removed, and perhaps some "high tech" components removed too.

Aout the SAAR 4.5. This ships have an hangar and landing pad for a light helicopter, they can operate even with 4th level seas, wich means weaves of 7 mts . I have heard some rumors that the Navy wants at last to more of these ships.

 

[Galrahn]

Couple things.

Mexico pulled out of its mutual defense treaty with the United States in September of 2004. The treaty is known as the The Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance.

Wikipedia has a good short history regarding why Mexico pulled out.

The treaty was invoked numerous times during the 1950s and 1960s, but fell into disuse as Cold War threats subsided. During the Falklands War actions favoring the United Kingdom by the United States, committed to the Rio Treaty as well as NATO, were not in violation as Argentina had been the aggressor in the conflict. In 2001, the United States invoked the Rio Treaty after the September 11 attacks. In 2002, citing the Falklands example and anticipating the Iraq War, Mexico formally withdrew from the treaty; after the requisite two years, Mexico ceased to be a signatory in September 2004.

So to answer some of the speculation, there is no defense treaty between the US and Mexico.

I must be in a different camp, because I like the Saar 4.5 buy. Even without Harpoons they are formidable vessels, and despite only 500 tons they can support helicopters.

I think the Mexican Navy would be better off with more FACs and Corvettes rather than OHP frigates. While the frigates are great ships, they are expensive to operate. With the Austin class LPDs, one on each coast, it provides a flagship which can support a variety of missions beyond just amphibious or disaster relief, but can additionally be used as ASW helicopter operation platforms.

I might change my mind if Venezuela buys new submarines, but until that occurs I don't see a requirement for frigates.

 

[contedicavour]

Interesting debate here.
I'm not for corvettes and more FACs because I believe they have a smaller autonomy and are less suitable for extended patrols in the Caribbean or in the Pacific Ocean.
May be though the OHP FFGs are too big for patrol roles...

Just one question : the ex Israeli Saar 4.5 carry no Harpoons ?? Do they keep at least the Gabriel and the Barak ?

cheers

 

[Galrahn]

Just one question : the ex Israeli Saar 4.5 carry no Harpoons ?? Do they keep at least the Gabriel and the Barak ?

I am pretty sure the Harpoons were the only weapons removed.

 

[Tupadre]

Interesting debate here.
I'm not for corvettes and more FACs because I believe they have a smaller autonomy and are less suitable for extended patrols in the Caribbean or in the Pacific Ocean.
May be though the OHP FFGs are too big for patrol roles...

Just one question : the ex Israeli Saar 4.5 carry no Harpoons ?? Do they keep at least the Gabriel and the Barak ?

cheers

Well the fact is that we have to survey and protect a very long coast line and a 200 miles exclusive economic zone, so we need both FAC´s and corvettes and ocean going patrol vessels.
Our last design of OPV displaces 1680 tons, have an hangar and landing pad for one Panther helicopter, is armed with an Oto Melara 76mm gun , a Raphael Typhoon 25mm CIWS plus 12.7 heavy machine guns and even shoulder fired Igla missiles!
It has an endurance of 30 days at sea and was designed to keeo operational costs down.
For coastal patrol we use the swedish Combat 90H fast patrol boat, armed with a 12.7 mm machine gun plus six marines with assault rifles. They are beign suplemented with another mexican design of fast patrol boat, the Acuario Class.
Currently the plan is the build some 60 new patrol boats of the swedish IC 16M design, wich is an enlarged version of the C 90H with more range.

About the Aliya class missile boat, in israeli service they were armed with up to four Harpoon and 8 Gabriel SSM´s, plus a CIWS Phalanx 20mm system, two 20mm cannons and machine guns.
The Harpoon missiles were removed when the ships were delivered to the mexican Navy. They never carried Barak missiles, only the SAAR 4, and the other version of the SAAR 4.5 the Romat class, wich lacks any helicopter facility, has the Barak and an Oto Melara 76mm gun placed instead.