Spratly Islands - News and Discussions

[STURM]

However, The point is your statement of Vietnam "has no attempt" to take back its claimed archipelagos (legal base) appears to be "exaggerated" or "unisided".

Well, then back up your claim and show me how what I said is ''"exaggerated" or "unisided". Has Vietnam tried to take back the Paracels and is it a national prority?? Also, I never said Vietnam has no legal basis to claim back the Paracels....

 

[macpanda0504]

Well, then back up your claim and show me how what I said is ''"exaggerated" or "unisided". Has Vietnam tried to take back the Paracels and is it a national prority?? Also, I never said Vietnam has no legal basis to claim back the Paracels....

Oh mate, i don't want to play the claim game. According to my previous quotation, your statement of "has no attempt" may hurt many Vietnamese people. Noted that it is my personal understanding "attempt" could be seen as both "action" and "thought", this case takes the latter.
Your question is appreciated but it is somewhat, a tour deep inside the Vietnamese community can best answer.
It is my fault if my sentence makes you misunderstand what i really mean. I found that you support the limit of force-use then i just added up (legal base) for people to easily follow our frank and open exchange of views.

 

[ManilaBoy]

There was a protest rally in Manila last June 8th that was held in front of China consular bldg. in response to the recent incidents in the 'West Philippine Sea', turnout was low due to the rainy weather...

P.S. There was also a massive rally today in Hanoi, 1 day before the Navy is to conduct a 9 hour live-fire drill off Quang Nam's coast...

 

[rip]

You are correct in that Vietnam simply doesn't have the resources to take back the Paracels especially in their differences in naval and air power. On the ground however they could put up a creatable fight I am willing to bet. But that does not mean that they will not just sit back a wait for a better time to come their way and that better time for them may well come. The more strident China becomes the more likely Vietnam will find an opportunity for it to exploit. They will however not just forget.

I would be willing to state that China’s clam to the Paracels is stronger than it is clams to any of the other parts of the South China Sea but it will never be securely China's until the rest of the world agrees, something that the rest of the world has not done nor is it likely to do any time soon.

If these calms and counter clams lead eventually to war, future historians will not take this current posturing as significant events which lead up to war but only mention them in passing, as signs of a deeper and more profound disagreements. China and Vietnam have a long unpleasant history together which I know the Vietnamese take very seriously. I do not know how serious the Chinese take it.

By any reasonable accounting China should be able to do whatever it wants, for on paper it is by far the stronger. But that does not mean that the Vietnamese do not believe that they could still not prevail. They have done so before so they know it can be done.

First the greatest difference between the Paracels and the Falklands is a simple one. The people living on the Falklands islands (a long establish munity-generation community) simply do not want to be part of Argentina and never have, can anyone blame them for not wanting to be part of that country. The principal of self-determination comes in to being which overrides the simple convenience of geography or the deepest desires of the Argentinean mythology, all of which is coming from a people which have never lived there. Think about it.

How many countries have broken up because of differences in culture and religion. In this case they do not even speak the same language, share the same history, believe in the same things nor want the same future?

As to the main point of your comment. If China goes down the path of bulling the other countries ringing it, something that many think to be very likely but is not as yet assured that it will, Vietnam may find many others of which to make common cause and that is when they will act. And that or something very much like it, is what China is most worried about.

Many talk of China as a great power in the world and that might come to pass and perhaps very soon but it has yet to start acting like a great power. Great powers have both options and restrictions that lesser countries do not have upon how they can act and use their power, that is if they want to stay a great power. The restrictions on their power may not be obvious to lesser powers but never-the-less it is very real.The Chinese leadership has yet to understand the restrictions that come with the job. After all it is all very new to them. If they do not learn what comes with the job they will stumble.

 

[STURM]

First the greatest difference between the Paracels and the Falklands is a simple one.

Another key difference is that unlike the Falklands, the only inhabitants on the Spratleys are birds and turtles.......

As to the main point of your comment. If China goes down the path of bulling the other countries ringing it, something that many think to be very likely but is not as yet assured that it will, Vietnam may find many others of which to make common cause and that is when they will act. And that or something very much like it, is what China is most worried about.

Great powers [western] in the past have 'bullied' smaller countries, so what makes it so different with China? I come from a country that claims and occupies 5 reefs/islands, believe me, I'm concerned [in 1979 our troops placed a marker on a reef and a few hours later it was removed by Vietnamese troops!]. Unless, any claimant does anything to alter the status quo or does something really provocative, all 5 countries are more than happy to let things remain as they are.The Chinese are not daft, they know that taking a hard-line approach will effect how other countries perceives it. The key difference is that unlike in the past, the Spratleys issue is receiving a lot of global coverage.

What I find very interesting is that the vast majority of the Chinese population, does not even know or couldn't care less about the Spratleys. Chino can attest to that as he's been living in China for several years. Things have not reached a stage where the Spratleys is in the pysche of the average Chinese they
Tibet or Xinjiang is.

Many talk of China as a great power in the world and that might come to pass and perhaps very soon but it has yet to start acting like a great power.

Certainly, it takes times and doesn't happen overnight. Unlike the rise of European powers in the 19th century which happened over a period and the rise of post-WW2 America, China's new status has been relatively quick.

 

[rip]

Another key difference is that unlike the Falklands, the only inhabitants on the Spratleys are birds and turtles.......



Great powers [western] in the past have 'bullied' smaller countries, so what makes it so different with China? I come from a country that claims and occupies 5 reefs/islands, believe me, I'm concerned [in 1979 our troops placed a marker on a reef and a few hours later it was removed by Vietnamese troops!]. Unless, any claimant does anything to alter the status quo or does something really provocative, all 5 countries are more than happy to let things remain as they are.The Chinese are not daft, they know that taking a hard-line approach will effect how other countries perceives it. The key difference is that unlike in the past, the Spratleys issue is receiving a lot of global coverage.

What I find very interesting is that the vast majority of the Chinese population, does not even know or couldn't care less about the Spratleys. Chino can attest to that as he's been living in China for several years. Things have not reached a stage where the Spratleys is in the pysche of the average Chinese they
Tibet or Xinjiang is.



Certainly, it takes times and doesn't happen overnight. Unlike the rise of European powers in the 19th century which happened over a period and the rise of post-WW2 America, China's new status has been relatively quick.

As mentioned previously before upon this thread, the crises if it comes, will be years from now and the personalities that will decide these issues, if not the countries, have yet to appear upon the public stage. So making bets on what the future actors will do or not do is at that time a wasted effort. The posturing we see today originating from all the different sides, though not unimportant, will in the long run not have a determining effect upon the eventual outcomes.

The problem is three fold; one, is that a politician can make nationalistic points and thus raise their status within their populations at this time, without having to pay any price for it. The price will be paid in the future by others some of which are as yet not born. Two, this is the best time to peacefully solve these issues before all the sides become so entrenched as to make peaceful cooperation impossible. Three, until these issues are settled, whatever natural resources there are cannot be safely exploited by any one safely and as a result, all are poorer for it.

As far as the money to develop these resources is concerned there is enough international capital and technology available both upon the open market and through partnerships deals that this is not a problem for any of the players who have any claim once clear title to the resources has been established.

As to the commonly held opinion as stated in your commit.

“Great powers [western] in the past have 'bullied' smaller countries, so what makes it so different with China?”

The answer is not that China is in any way different or unique but that we live in a different century with different priorities, problems, and restraints. I know this is a hard idea to get across after the thousands of years of human history which repeated the same sad stories of conquest and repression of one people over that of another repeatedly and many do not believe that it is any different now. But the ideas and the behaviors of both individuals and nations from the 19th century and from all the ages before no longer work for the following reasons.

The entire world is coming to a crisis that it has never seen before. A crisis that we as a species, will ether grow to meet or we will fail. If we fail our species will be doomed to poverty, decline, and eventual extinction. Why do I make this seemly preposterous claim and why is it that this time is so different than all of the earlier times we seen before. See my answer to Annada and INCO on the thread “Is some form of world war still possible in this day and age?” which are exploring some of the same issues and using this topic as one of its examples.

 

[ManilaBoy]

The PN has removed Chinese markers on Reed Bank, Douglas Bank and Boxall Reef that were recently placed without permission...

Spratlys Tension: Brave Pinoys removes China markers | Everything In Budget

The Philippines has sent it's largest and oldest warship BRP Rahaj Humabon PF-11 towards the disputed Spratly Islands to conduct routine patrols and is not a responsed to the escalating tensions with China...

Philippines Sends Ship To Disputed Waters - Defense News

The US recently announced that it is ready to arm the Philippines military after a bilateral talks was held yesterday by the Foreign Affairs Secretary and US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton...

US ready to arm Philippines amid China tension - Â Latest news around the world and developments close to home - MSN Philippines News

 

[Chino]

What I find very interesting is that the vast majority of the Chinese population, does not even know or couldn't care less about the Spratleys.

One male Chinese colleague of mine is a keen follower of Spratlys news. I asked him what he thought about the whole thing. Here's what he said:

"Tension is rising... but China's infamous U-shaped claim is irrational... Spratlys too far away from mainland... "

Most others simply don't know, or don't care, And among those who do know - like my colleague - is surprisingly level-headed about it.

Of course, once shooting starts, no one will remain impartial or level-headed.

 

[Sampanviking]

Hi Chino

I seriously doubt that you will see any fighting, just very intense diplomatic and trade based pressure.

I see the competition in the Western Pacific Seas as an extension of the same energy zone competition that we see in Central Asia.

I see the end game to be to force the US out of the region while drawing ASEAN in, to join the more clearly emerging marriage of the SCO/CSTO that is happening inland.

Its all money and energy now with guns relegated to those on the periphery that lack either commodity.

 

[kvnsoon]

Another key difference is that unlike the Falklands, the only inhabitants on the Spratleys are birds and turtles.......

there is actually a Filipino town right in the heart of the Spratly archipelago... Kalayaan is a municipality under Palawan Province.

and may i add that the Philippine claim is based primarily on the UNCLOS, which has been effective for quite some time now. As a UN member, i think China would adhere to the UN promulgations, so hopefully conflict in the area is unlikely.

 

[NICO]

China’s Territorial Disputes in the South China Sea and East China Sea | China Briefing News

I put up this article because it has a map that I saw in the newspaper a few days ago showing China's claim's on SCS. If this is really the position of China (which I wasn't aware of precisely until now), no wonder everyone in the region is pissed off. Might as well claim, Vietnam, Malaysia and Philippines land masses as Chinese also.

I know understand that China also refuses to join talks with regional groups and especially the USA, China only wants to have bilateral accords which favors China as it can pick off the other countries one by one.

 

[STURM]

and may i add that the Philippine claim is based primarily on the UNCLOS, which has been effective for quite some time now.

Malaysia's claims are also based on UNCLOS.

Below is a link that details Malaysia's possessions in the Spratleys and the history behind them.

A Secure Malaysia - Malaysia Militarium: Royal Malaysian Navy - Offshore EEZ Stations

I put up this article because it has a map that I saw in the newspaper a few days ago showing China's claim's on SCS. If this is really the position of China (which I wasn't aware of precisely until now), no wonder everyone in the region is pissed off. Might as well claim, Vietnam, Malaysia and Philippines land masses as Chinese also.

The Spratlys dispute has been ongoing for several decades and all the claiments were more than contend to mantain the status quo. The key difference now however, due to recent 'events' at sea and the U.S. bringing it up at a summit recently, it is now receiving wide global attention.

 

[Chino]

China’s Territorial Disputes in the South China Sea and East China Sea | China Briefing NewsMight as well claim, Vietnam, Malaysia and Philippines land masses as Chinese also.

Do you actually think China need to acquire these countries?

If so, why?

 

[NICO]

Do you actually think China need to acquire these countries?

If so, why?

When you look at the map, seems China is claiming all the sea right up to their beaches, why stop there? Sure doesn't seem to me that China is willing to consider the other countries claims.

Although just this weekend, Vietnam and China appear to have ratcheted down the rhetoric and supposed to have some talks.This is good news, hopefully this can be resolved peacefully.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/world/asia/27vietnam.html

 

[STURM]

When you look at the map, seems China is claiming all the sea right up to their beaches, why stop there? Sure doesn't seem to me that China is willing to consider the other countries claims.

And would they not stop there? For what possible reason would China have to claim anything beyond its claims in the Spratleys? The islands/reefs and area which China claims is actually quite a distance from the beaches of the other countries involved.

From a Chinese prespective, they can claim that all this talk about China being a possible threat is ludicrous as China's military budget pales in comparison with the U.S. China can also claim that its warships do not patrol off the U.S. coast, it has no military presence in foreign countries, has not invaded any countries recently and is not part of any military bloc.

 

[fretburner]

If for example, everyone concede to China and China will "own" the entire South China Sea... will everyone then need permission from China to traverse the SCS? It won't be considered International Waters already?

 

[Tony Pear]

When you look at the map, seems China is claiming all the sea right up to their beaches, why stop there? Sure doesn't seem to me that China is willing to consider the other countries claims.

Although just this weekend, Vietnam and China appear to have ratcheted down the rhetoric and supposed to have some talks.This is good news, hopefully this can be resolved peacefully.

Recently, Chinese surveillance ships challenged against Vietnames oil explorer ships for 2 times. The positions of the events are in the EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONES of Vietnam. After that, China blamed Vietnam for causing trouble in Chinese territorial sea.

In 2009 and 2010, many Vietnamese fishing boats were hit to sink by Chinese transformed military ships. Hundreds of Vietnamese fishers were killed.

Noting that, before 1950, China had NO ISLANDS in the South China Sea. All of Paracel Islands belonged to Vietnam, then were completely stolen by China by 1974.

About Spratly Islands, China had NO islands until they attacked and occupied islands from Vietnam in 1988 and from the Phillipines in 1991.

Now, they are claiming almost of the SCS (80%) belongs them. The other countries have waters just enough to wash their feet.

What the hell is going on if China is success in controlling the SCS. May be the whole Pacific, then Atlantic… are their next targets I don’t know, but I am sure they will expand their land for good.

Have you ever compared China to terrorists? It makes sense after watching a videos showing that Chinese Navy was killing unarmed Vietnameses when they attacked and stole Vietnamese islands. Go YouTubes and type "China invaded Spratly islands of Vietnam real footage 1988"

 

[NICO]

Recently, Chinese surveillance ships challenged against Vietnames oil explorer ships for 2 times. The positions of the events are in the EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONES of Vietnam. After that, China blamed Vietnam for causing trouble in Chinese territorial sea.

In 2009 and 2010, many Vietnamese fishing boats were hit to sink by Chinese transformed military ships. Hundreds of Vietnamese fishers were killed.

Noting that, before 1950, China had NO ISLANDS in the South China Sea. All of Paracel Islands belonged to Vietnam, then were completely stolen by China by 1974.

About Spratly Islands, China had NO islands until they attacked and occupied islands from Vietnam in 1988 and from the Phillipines in 1991.

Now, they are claiming almost of the SCS (80%) belongs them. The other countries have waters just enough to wash their feet.

What the hell is going on if China is success in controlling the SCS. May be the whole Pacific, then Atlantic… are their next targets I don’t know, but I am sure they will expand their land for good.

Have you ever compared China to terrorists? It makes sense after watching a videos showing that Chinese Navy was killing unarmed Vietnameses when they attacked and stole Vietnamese islands. Go YouTubes and type "China invaded Spratly islands of Vietnam real footage 1988"

Personally, I won't go that far and call China "terrorists". They are defending a position that until very recently I wasn't aware/informed of. It is with this map that I became aware of China's demands and stated: "why stop there?" It was meant with some irony/sarcasm, I was always under the impression that they were making demands a lot closer to China and wasn't aware that they would pretty much want to grab the whole SCS. My bad, I should study the questions and get more info before posting.:tomato

I think you and Fretburner raise in interesting question if China gets what it wants, what does that spell for the other country/ships wanting to use those shipping lanes? I really don't know much about this, hopefully someone here can inform us. Although realistically, all the resources below the surface and in the ground are probably worth a heck of a lot more than if China collects some kind of "toll fee" from passing ships.

I think we will get a prelude to what China expects and wants from these talks with Vietnam. Hopefully thess questions about sovereignty can be resolved peacefully.

 

[Tony Pear]

If for example, everyone concede to China and China will "own" the entire South China Sea... will everyone then need permission from China to traverse the SCS? It won't be considered International Waters already?

China claimed SCS belonged to them as it relied on the historical evidences? What's that: it is saying that hundreds of years ago, its' ancestors sailed throughout the SCS and stopped somewhere and claimed sovereignty over the sea. By China cannot show any formal documents about the declaration. More over, it cannot explaine the borderline of "its historic territorical sea".
According to it's point of view, SCS is currently belonged to China. Of course, US can cross the sea with acceptance from China. Remember that last year, China did threaten the American USNS Impeccaple ship in the SCS.

 

[STURM]

What the hell is going on if China is success in controlling the SCS. May be the whole Pacific, then Atlantic… are their next targets I don’t know, but I am sure they will expand their land for good

Complete nonsense, why would China claim the Atlantic or Pacific? It is expanding it influence and developing new partnerships in many areas of the world but it has no reason to expend its land mass. Hope you won't suggest there are plans for world domination next.......

Have you ever compared China to terrorists? It makes sense after watching a videos showing that Chinese Navy was killing unarmed Vietnameses when they attacked and stole Vietnamese islands. Go YouTubes and type "China invaded Spratly islands of Vietnam real footage 1988"

Nations tend to do what is in their interest irrespective of the morals involved, western countries and other countries included.

Just to repeat what I posted earlier - from a Chinese prespective, they can claim that all this talk about China being a possible threat is ludicrous and smacks of double standards, as China's military budget pales in comparison with the U.S. and is way behind in technology. China can also claim that its warships/planes do not patrol off the U.S. coast, it has no military presence in foreign countries, has not invaded any countries recently and is not part of any military bloc - so how can it be a threat?