Spratly Islands - News and Discussions
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It would be interesting to know whether these were infact Philippino sailors or something else.
Maybe someone wants the RoP and the Vietnamese at eachothers throats.
Divide and conquer.
Maybe someone wants the RoP and the Vietnamese at eachothers throats.
Divide and conquer.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
PLAN Warship Fired at Filipino Fishermen
PLAN warship type 053 frigate Dongguan #560 has fired shots at 3 Philippines fishing boat at Jackson Atoll in the disputed Spratlys...A very disturbing incident sinced deadly force were used, but I am hoping that things will not escalate in the 'Western Philippine Sea'...
http://www.verafiles.org/front-page/sticky/9535/
PLAN warship type 053 frigate Dongguan #560 has fired shots at 3 Philippines fishing boat at Jackson Atoll in the disputed Spratlys...A very disturbing incident sinced deadly force were used, but I am hoping that things will not escalate in the 'Western Philippine Sea'...
http://www.verafiles.org/front-page/sticky/9535/
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This is worrying, but I don't think this will amount to much, Fishermen get shot at from different coast guards and navy's in South Asia on a regular basis, but it doesn't really create much of a hype, just some big wigs from the involved countries will give some public eye wash message and every one will forget about it, until it happens gain and the same thing will be repeated again in a never ending cycle.
STOP POSTING ONE LINERS. How many times do you have to be reminded?For the 2nd time in less than a month, another confrontation took place inside Vietnam's 200 mile EEZ ...
Vietnam says China fishing boat rams research ship - Interaksyon.com
Yeah, it does look like a one liner to me, otherwise you'd find I wouldn't have commented. Creating thread after thread of single line comments along with a link isn't acceptable, I've told you this before and I'm pretty sure other mods have too, so stop doing it. Add some discussion value to a link you're posting, give some opinions or some thoughts or something more substantial than a single sentence. You have done this before with links you've posted and you'll notice I haven't come down on you about any of those.
Even better, all these threads you've created about China's actions could be consolidated into one thread so as to better promote discussion, because it would give people a central thread on which to comment as the theme is the same. I can do that for you if you like, and I think it would be a better idea than starting new threads every time you want to post a link about China/Spratly Islands issues.
Even better, all these threads you've created about China's actions could be consolidated into one thread so as to better promote discussion, because it would give people a central thread on which to comment as the theme is the same. I can do that for you if you like, and I think it would be a better idea than starting new threads every time you want to post a link about China/Spratly Islands issues.
Tom Bryceland
New Member
It is obvious that none of the nations around these islands, other than China are capable or have the will to defend these islands in any meaningfull way without escallating the situation to dangerous levels. Im thinking along the lines of Vietnam dropping a few mines off in the area on their next fishing trip.
This is the sort of thing i could imaging happening and because there are several countries objecting to China claiming this area, there could be an element of plausable deniability as to who actually mined the area.
off now to have a look at minelaying ship and detection capability of the regional players. Im sure Yarrows (BAE) Glasgow sold Malasia some decent minelayers not too long ago. will post my findings
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #70
Vietnam's Navy will conduct 2 live-fire drills on monday for a total of 9 hours of the coast of Quang Nam in response to the escalating situations with China...
BBC News - Vietnam plans live-fire drill amid South China Sea row
BBC News - Vietnam plans live-fire drill amid South China Sea row
BAE Systems sold Malaysia a pair of frigates in the 1990's not minelayers. Malaysia operates 4 Mahamiru [Lerici] class MCMVs and has a stockpile of Italian made MR-80 moored mines. I'm not sure if any mines have been bought for its 2 subs.off now to have a look at minelaying ship and detection capability of the regional players. Im sure Yarrows (BAE) Glasgow sold Malasia some decent minelayers not too long ago. will post my findings
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Just to point out, the Mod team would generally like a little bit of commentary from the poster providing the story link, instead of just a subject line for what the news link is.
In short, what are your thoughts on Vietnam conducting an exercise off Quang Nam, that sort of thing.
-Cheers
2cents
I hate when the mainstream media allaround the world do not distinguish between:
1st: the Paracel Islands dispute between the SRV vs. the PRC [ROC also claims those islands.]
2nd: the Spratley Islands dispute between the SRV [all islands] vs. the PRC [ROC; all islands] vs RP [partial claim; according EEZ] vs. MY [partial claim according to EEZ] vs. BN [partial claim according to EEZ]
3rd: PRC[ROC] claims 80% of the South China Sea as their territory - the infamous U-shaped line/Nine-dotted line
----
I personaly think that the Paracel Islands dispute is useless for SRV, because PRC already control those islands and has got the military upper hand.
----
The Spratley Islands is occupied by all claimants [defacto garrisoned by sailors/soldiers, in case of SRV also civilians]. Eviction [only violently possible] from those islands could be used by the opposing side as cassus belli.
[Altrough I don't think that MY/RP/BN/SRV are so foolish to escalate to that level. Military-wise this would be an invitaion for the PRC to use their superior forces.]
Vietnamese fishermen have been harrassed/arrested by the PRC in the area near the Paracel Islands.
Fishermen from all claimant nations have been harrassed/arrested by other claimants' navy/coast guard in the area of the Spratley Islands.
This has been going on for years, but besides blabla no one has escalated the situation.
---
Since the last two years the PRC Coast Guard/Maritime Surveillance/Fisheries Law Enforcement has been much more agressive. They have patrolled within their 80% claim zone[ and therefore inside the other countries' EEZ]. But arrests/harrassment of fishermen were still only in the Paracels & Spratley disputed area.
---
The escalation now is that the PRC is planning to drill for oil in the Spratley Island and started to harrass Vietnamese fishermen [ who are inside SRV's EEZ] inside PRC's U-shaped claimed zone.
CMS last week cut cables of a Vietnamese oil ship, which was 120km of SRV's coast [and therefore clearly inside SRV's EEZ] and this week again inside SRV's EEZ.
It's now up the international community to force the PRC[and therefore the ROC] to accept the UNCLOS 200-miles EEZ rule or to face maritme anarchy/rule of strenght.
[What if: UK claims 80% of the North Sea? Or France claims 80% of the Mediterranean? Or Russia claims 80% of the Black Sea?]
----
EADS/SSC are going to deliver state of the art maritime surveillance system + mission command center to Vietnam by the end of 2011. In fall 2012 SRV will receive its' first Kilo-class submarine. [Malysia's Scorpene SSK is already operational and RP got a defence treaty with US.]
Since the beginning of economic reforms and opening up the society the PRC and the SRV have substituted Communist ideals with nationalism. Althrough ruling with absolute powers both regimes fear the nationalistic attitude among the youth, which they have seeded.
The CPV draws its' legitimance from leadership during the war times and the war was resistance against giants?
Many Viet youngsters have really bought into the We-Viets-Can-Defeat-Anyone!-education.
Critical Overseas Viets are already accussing the CPV of selling out the country to the PRC. [8billions US$ remittance per year.]
How can the CPC - rulers of a giant - explain concessions to dwarfs in front the Chinese public?
The US once sold out the RVN in 1974/75, but that was acceptible.
Selling out the RP to the PRC & risk to lose all credibility?
[Japan/SK: F* it! Yanks are unreliable, let's go nuclear!]
Can the PRC live with a humiliated&angry SRV, which will run straight into US/India's arms or even goes nuclear because of this? How about Indian/US fleet in Cam Ranh Port?
Or can the PRC make concessions to the SRV to keep the China-friendly faction inside the CPV alive?
What now?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Winamp played Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants To Rule The World", while I wrote this comment!*
I hate when the mainstream media allaround the world do not distinguish between:
1st: the Paracel Islands dispute between the SRV vs. the PRC [ROC also claims those islands.]
2nd: the Spratley Islands dispute between the SRV [all islands] vs. the PRC [ROC; all islands] vs RP [partial claim; according EEZ] vs. MY [partial claim according to EEZ] vs. BN [partial claim according to EEZ]
3rd: PRC[ROC] claims 80% of the South China Sea as their territory - the infamous U-shaped line/Nine-dotted line
----
I personaly think that the Paracel Islands dispute is useless for SRV, because PRC already control those islands and has got the military upper hand.
----
The Spratley Islands is occupied by all claimants [defacto garrisoned by sailors/soldiers, in case of SRV also civilians]. Eviction [only violently possible] from those islands could be used by the opposing side as cassus belli.
[Altrough I don't think that MY/RP/BN/SRV are so foolish to escalate to that level. Military-wise this would be an invitaion for the PRC to use their superior forces.]
Vietnamese fishermen have been harrassed/arrested by the PRC in the area near the Paracel Islands.
Fishermen from all claimant nations have been harrassed/arrested by other claimants' navy/coast guard in the area of the Spratley Islands.
This has been going on for years, but besides blabla no one has escalated the situation.
---
Since the last two years the PRC Coast Guard/Maritime Surveillance/Fisheries Law Enforcement has been much more agressive. They have patrolled within their 80% claim zone[ and therefore inside the other countries' EEZ]. But arrests/harrassment of fishermen were still only in the Paracels & Spratley disputed area.
---
The escalation now is that the PRC is planning to drill for oil in the Spratley Island and started to harrass Vietnamese fishermen [ who are inside SRV's EEZ] inside PRC's U-shaped claimed zone.
CMS last week cut cables of a Vietnamese oil ship, which was 120km of SRV's coast [and therefore clearly inside SRV's EEZ] and this week again inside SRV's EEZ.
It's now up the international community to force the PRC[and therefore the ROC] to accept the UNCLOS 200-miles EEZ rule or to face maritme anarchy/rule of strenght.
[What if: UK claims 80% of the North Sea? Or France claims 80% of the Mediterranean? Or Russia claims 80% of the Black Sea?]
----
EADS/SSC are going to deliver state of the art maritime surveillance system + mission command center to Vietnam by the end of 2011. In fall 2012 SRV will receive its' first Kilo-class submarine. [Malysia's Scorpene SSK is already operational and RP got a defence treaty with US.]
Since the beginning of economic reforms and opening up the society the PRC and the SRV have substituted Communist ideals with nationalism. Althrough ruling with absolute powers both regimes fear the nationalistic attitude among the youth, which they have seeded.
The CPV draws its' legitimance from leadership during the war times and the war was resistance against giants?
Many Viet youngsters have really bought into the We-Viets-Can-Defeat-Anyone!-education.
Critical Overseas Viets are already accussing the CPV of selling out the country to the PRC. [8billions US$ remittance per year.]
How can the CPC - rulers of a giant - explain concessions to dwarfs in front the Chinese public?
The US once sold out the RVN in 1974/75, but that was acceptible.
Selling out the RP to the PRC & risk to lose all credibility?
[Japan/SK: F* it! Yanks are unreliable, let's go nuclear!]
Can the PRC live with a humiliated&angry SRV, which will run straight into US/India's arms or even goes nuclear because of this? How about Indian/US fleet in Cam Ranh Port?
Or can the PRC make concessions to the SRV to keep the China-friendly faction inside the CPV alive?
What now?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Winamp played Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants To Rule The World", while I wrote this comment!*
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Vietnam is making no attempts to 'recover' the Paracels but is making sure it doen't lose any more of it's claims in the area.
Does the Defence Treaty with the U.S. cover the Philippines in event of trouble over the Spratleys? In the past, the U.S. has publicly said it does not.
macpanda0504
New Member
Well, you seem not to get this mate. It's obviously not the right time for such "recovery". Vietnam and her peope do not stand idly yet there's not a lot of choices to pick at present (peaceful protesting is never a good solution.) I feel the neccessary for Vietnam to join an alliance but i'm not depreciating the Vietnamese gov's policy in "self-sufficience". Given that the policy itself works consistently with the country's tradition, new approaches towards water disputes need to be re-considered in a way that takes into account the possibility that Vietnam could have international community on their line in a strungle against its "ugly yet giant" neighbour.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
It is my understanding (which is admittedly not perfect) that the treaty either specifically excludes the Spratlys, or it only covers Philippine claims at the time the treaty was signed, and the Spratlys were not, at that time, claimed.
-Cheers
I don't get it but you do??
Whether the time is right or not, Vietnam simply doesn't have the resources to take back the Paracels, and even if it had, taking it back by force would lead to war which is what everyone, despite the rhetoric and flexing of muscles, is trying hard to avoid.
You are correct in that Vietnam simply doesn't have the resources to take back the Paracels especially in their differences in naval and air power. On the ground however they could put up a creatable fight I am willing to bet. But that does not mean that they will not just sit back a wait for a better time to come their way and that better time for them may well come. The more strident China becomes the more likely Vietnam will find an opportunity for it to exploit. They will however not just forget.
I would be willing to state that China’s clam to the Paracels is stronger than it is clams to any of the other parts of the South China Sea but it will never be securely China's until the rest of the world agrees, something that the rest of the world has not done nor is it likely to do any time soon.
If these calms and counter clams lead eventually to war, future historians will not take this current posturing as significant events which lead up to war but only mention them in passing, as signs of a deeper and more profound disagreements. China and Vietnam have a long unpleasant history together which I know the Vietnamese take very seriously. I do not know how serious the Chinese take it.
By any reasonable accounting China should be able to do whatever it wants, for on paper it is by far the stronger. But that does not mean that the Vietnamese do not believe that they could still not prevail. They have done so before so they know it can be done.
A how exactly will they take it back and when will the time come? Having strong nationalistic/sentimental feelings about something and actually having the ability to do something about it are 2 very different things. China is getting more powerful and richer, and the military gap between Vietnam and China is getting wider and wider every year. Any future action by Vietnam to retake the Paracels, would be strongly discouraged by its neighbours and by Uncle Sam, [with which Vietnam has been steadily improving its relations with as a counter weight to China] and would not be in Vietnam's security interests as it would lead to war.
And neither has Argentina over the Falklands in 1982 or Germany over Silesia and Pomerania in 1945, but it doesn't mean they will get it back.
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macpanda0504
New Member
I agree with you on the present incapability of Vietnam in dealing with re-establishment of her ownership over Paracel island and the limit of force-use. However, The point is your statement of Vietnam "has no attempt" to take back its claimed archipelagos (legal base) appears to be "exaggerated" or "unisided".
It is not you or me should get it in the way the other do. It's the regional, perhaps global, perspective that we should get.
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