kev 99
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It's an interesting idea though, now, if someone came up with the idea of creating a UAV from a Harrier airframe, or at least the Pegasus engines to create a STOVL UAV then I think there might be interest.
Spanish armada interested in the F-35B
- Thread starter Alonso Quijano
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No chance you could make a Harrier for 15-20 million Euros, especially not if you only make a few dozen.
Ceuta & Melilla (their mainland African territories) can be covered from mainland Spain. Melilla is ca 150 km from Spain, Ceuta only 25 km. The small Spanish islands off the Moroccan coast are no further away.
The Canaries consist of several separate islands, with six international airports: one on each of the larger islands, & two on one island. One airport has a military airbase attached. There are also two smaller airports on smaller islands, for inter-island use, which military freighters could fly into & out of from Spain. There are 5 runways over 3000 metres, 3 from 2200 to 2500 metres, & 2 from 1250 to 1500 metres.
Madeira & Porto Santo (Portuguese, thus friendly) is a bit over 500km away, with two airports, & runways of 2780 & 3150 metres.
Morocco is the only country with easy access to the Spanish African territories. Algeria would need to co-operate with Morocco, or (in effect) declare war on Morocco to attack Melilla or Ceuta. It could only do so from the sea, or via Moroccan territory.
We can see from this that unless an attacker could seize several islands (with a population of over 2 million - we're not talking the Falklands) very quickly, or quickly make eight separate airports unusable, before Spain could reinforce them by air, & seize or neutralise Madeira, Spain would not need carrier-based aircraft to cover its territories.
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yes but it doesn't say whether both lifts are compatible because the fore lift defiantly is but the rear one doesn't look wide enough for an F35 probably compatible with Chinooks though
kev 99
Member
F35B's aren't that much bigger than a Harrier, and a Chinook is almost twice as long as an F35:
F35
Length: 51.4 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Harrier 2
Length: 46 ft 4 in (14.12 m)
Wingspan: 30 ft 4 in (9.25 m)
Chinook
Length: 98 ft 10 in (30.1 m)
Wiki doesn't give a width though and I can't really be bothered to look
Heres the image that gave me thought about if the rear lift could carry and F35 as its the weith thats the concern as their is plenty of lengthF35B's aren't that much bigger than a Harrier, and a Chinook is almost twice as long as an F35:
F35
Length: 51.4 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Harrier 2
Length: 46 ft 4 in (14.12 m)
Wingspan: 30 ft 4 in (9.25 m)
Chinook
Length: 98 ft 10 in (30.1 m)
Wiki doesn't give a width though and I can't really be bothered to look
kev 99
Member
I'm sure it will be fine, as the only STOVL fighter in development I think the designers would be mental not to have figured in the necessary margins.
Alonso Quijano
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in fact the only concern that has Spain in terms of defense is Morocco and comply with NATO.
part of humanitarian missions ...
the truth is that Spain is experiencing fairly quiet ... jejeje ...
on the other hand Spain's interest to have aircraft carriers have always been the canary islands, but today there airbases in canary combining F-18 and Mirage F-1 (the mirages are being replaced by eurofigthter).
but our army attaches great importance to have a loaded air force, both to protect canary Ceuta and Melilla, or just meet the NATO missions.
I think that Spain will have 2 BPE, I think he will stay with 1 and looking for some sort of substitute for the PDA ...
The BPE is a vessel that was purchased to gain more power and projection and Spain currently has the BPE (JCI) and class 2 vessels "Galicia", with that we have enough to transport troops, tanks, armored vehicles and helicopters .
BPE buy a second one just to work with the F-35B would be an absurdity, the boat would go always half empty ...
The logic is that a boat adapted to be manufactured only for aircraft carriers.
Yes, if you want just a full time carrier it would be cheaper another "pda" than an lhd-carrier, but comparing 2 bpes with 1 bpe and 1 "pda" i would go for the 2 bpe´s, for the flexibility that gives, for example for a deployment in the libano you can send the 1 bpe and one galizia and still have the flexibility for anothers missions in the peninsule or away, a mission with an lhd with 6 jets or a carrier with 20. And not just for that flexibility, also the crews are similar, and also if one bpe goes off you have still and exact another to substitute.
Also when you use the bpe as carrier you have the heavy load deck and dock free, you can see it for the good also, that is more fuel or bunkerage and some vehicles so it is not really half empty or a "useless" space, or for extra things, like amphibious drones or for the crew to have a wide free space... but i understand you when you say that with a "pda" you would get the same carrier capacities in less tonnage, that is cheaper.
Now we say 2 bpe´s and one big pda, or 3 bpe´s....
Morocco it can be a conflict, like it can be the uk with the gibraltar affaire, or it can be portugal with olivenza affair..
Also when you use the bpe as carrier you have the heavy load deck and dock free, you can see it for the good also, that is more fuel or bunkerage and some vehicles so it is not really half empty or a "useless" space, or for extra things, like amphibious drones
or for the crew to have a wide free space... but i understand you when you say that with a "pda" you would get the same carrier capacities in less tonnage, that is cheaper.Now we say 2 bpe´s and one big pda, or 3 bpe´s....
Morocco it can be a conflict, like it can be the uk with the gibraltar affaire, or it can be portugal with olivenza affair..
"Weith": new formuale involving width and weight...
Alonso Quijano
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but not the same launch and land a plane on an aircraft carrier than a JCI ...Yes, if you want just a full time carrier it would be cheaper another "pda" than an lhd-carrier, but comparing 2 bpes with 1 bpe and 1 "pda" i would go for the 2 bpe´s, for the flexibility that gives, for example for a deployment in the libano you can send the 1 bpe and one galizia and still have the flexibility for anothers missions in the peninsule or away, a mission with an lhd with 6 jets or a carrier with 20. And not just for that flexibility, also the crews are similar, and also if one bpe goes off you have still and exact another to substitute.
Also when you use the bpe as carrier you have the heavy load deck and dock free, you can see it for the good also, that is more fuel or bunkerage and some vehicles so it is not really half empty or a "useless" space, or for extra things, like amphibious drones
Now we say 2 bpe´s and one big pda, or 3 bpe´s....
Morocco it can be a conflict, like it can be the uk with the gibraltar affaire, or it can be portugal with olivenza affair..
a day of bad weather at sea possibly in the JCI can not work with airplanes, but on an aircraft carrier is more likely to work in bad weather by having more stability and less freeboard.
PDA once got off their atmospheric CIRCUMSTANCES harriers in a work that seemed impossible, with the JCI would have been impossible ...
if we have 2 morrow I'll settle BPE, but personally I prefer a PDA to be a substitute for other carriers.
state 4 or 5, for harriers is going to be difficult or very difficult to land, the head of spanish squadron recomends not to land during the night and bad state unless you have 4 years piloting the harrier in good conditions...jeje, i would do it in one day with my pc experience :dunce So if pda makes it with sea state 5 and jci 4, both they will be risky, also the pda is 24 meters wide and the jci is 32. But i understand you that that sea level advantagee is a point, if it is so, because in practice we dont know it, the jci has the retractile fins, and it is wider at the botton than a pda.
Other reasong facing harriers and f35bs is that the harrier, i think, makes similar ranges to the f35b consuming less fuel, ang having good missiling load capacity.
You can calculate that if 20 harriers size in the light load deck, then at least 15 f35b´s, and 5 of the 7 parking places for another 5 f35b´s, the other 2 parking places for 3 helos, plus one medilum spot with 4 helos, so we are left with one spot for helos ops and 4 for the run of the f35b´s, probably enough for a considerable load, sure for the harriers, that can make a run with just 3 spots. If you want a 5th spot run for the f35b´s you can move the helos fledged between the side of the jet run and the side with the island.
I would say yes, that a jci can put 20 jets at the same time in the air, let´s say the autonomy of a harrier is 3-4-5 hours, and having 2 little lorries to move them from the fore and rear lifts, you can lauch them by couples, and maybe in 30 minutes or less you have them in the air, for landing is easyer because of the landing spots. But it would be an interesting idea a rast system for the harriers.....
Other reasong facing harriers and f35bs is that the harrier, i think, makes similar ranges to the f35b consuming less fuel, ang having good missiling load capacity.
You can calculate that if 20 harriers size in the light load deck, then at least 15 f35b´s, and 5 of the 7 parking places for another 5 f35b´s, the other 2 parking places for 3 helos, plus one medilum spot with 4 helos, so we are left with one spot for helos ops and 4 for the run of the f35b´s, probably enough for a considerable load, sure for the harriers, that can make a run with just 3 spots. If you want a 5th spot run for the f35b´s you can move the helos fledged between the side of the jet run and the side with the island.
I would say yes, that a jci can put 20 jets at the same time in the air, let´s say the autonomy of a harrier is 3-4-5 hours, and having 2 little lorries to move them from the fore and rear lifts, you can lauch them by couples, and maybe in 30 minutes or less you have them in the air, for landing is easyer because of the landing spots. But it would be an interesting idea a rast system for the harriers.....
Alonso Quijano
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The Navy states in determining the anti-air warfare capability in the future surface ship F-110
25/03/2010 (Infodefensa.com) Madrid - Future Surface Ship Navy, F-110 series provides the AAW capability of anti-air warfare, as a determinant for the platform, according to highlights of Frigate Captain Carlos Martinez -Merello, chief of the Division of Resources Planning and Definition Media Spanish Navy.
The future F-110 is intended to replace the ships of the class F-80 Santa Maria (pictured), currently serves as protection for battle groups the Navy amphibious groups.
Despite the economic situation, the captain recalled Merello Martínez-building programs "can not stop to keep the achieved global excellence" for our country, declared within the Navy Day Program in progress and future programs, Organized by the Foundation Circle Technologies for Defense and Security. Any new program must conform to the current scenario and the F-110 respond to "conventional and asymmetric threats"
must be able to operate both "in coastal waters as high seas.
In broad terms, the ship F-110 must have an operational life of forty years, be able to incorporate groups on board, and able to operate unmanned aerial vehicles, both air and surface and subsurface.
As for the desired characteristics, the captain said Martinez-Merello is tempting to ask for a sustained speed over 35 knots but "depend on the size of the ship. However, the F-110 will have a multipurpose space for different mission profiles, 240 days of operation and 18 months for high availability.
With respect to their abilities, or antiaircraft defense AAW system, "will provide local area protection" and "will determine the platform and the system ASW, antisubmarine defense, provide the ability to" protect Valuable Unit "ASUW system , defense surface missile will be Su-Su and medium caliber artillery. Also, the F-110 will be non-lethal weapons systems.
The objectives of ID programs in this project go through defining new multifunction embedded systems and multifrequency, integration of different alternatives and options in the superstructure and the analysis of the impact on the design and size of ship.
The F-110 is a vessel that will cover the functions between the BAM (Maritime Action Ships) and the F-100, aimed at medium intensity scenarios which will provide escort and maritime security. According to Martinez-Merello, this program is "a chance in the evolution of shipbuilding towards full nationalization by boosting ID programs.
25/03/2010 (Infodefensa.com) Madrid - Future Surface Ship Navy, F-110 series provides the AAW capability of anti-air warfare, as a determinant for the platform, according to highlights of Frigate Captain Carlos Martinez -Merello, chief of the Division of Resources Planning and Definition Media Spanish Navy.
The future F-110 is intended to replace the ships of the class F-80 Santa Maria (pictured), currently serves as protection for battle groups the Navy amphibious groups.
Despite the economic situation, the captain recalled Merello Martínez-building programs "can not stop to keep the achieved global excellence" for our country, declared within the Navy Day Program in progress and future programs, Organized by the Foundation Circle Technologies for Defense and Security. Any new program must conform to the current scenario and the F-110 respond to "conventional and asymmetric threats"
must be able to operate both "in coastal waters as high seas.
In broad terms, the ship F-110 must have an operational life of forty years, be able to incorporate groups on board, and able to operate unmanned aerial vehicles, both air and surface and subsurface.
As for the desired characteristics, the captain said Martinez-Merello is tempting to ask for a sustained speed over 35 knots but "depend on the size of the ship. However, the F-110 will have a multipurpose space for different mission profiles, 240 days of operation and 18 months for high availability.
With respect to their abilities, or antiaircraft defense AAW system, "will provide local area protection" and "will determine the platform and the system ASW, antisubmarine defense, provide the ability to" protect Valuable Unit "ASUW system , defense surface missile will be Su-Su and medium caliber artillery. Also, the F-110 will be non-lethal weapons systems.
The objectives of ID programs in this project go through defining new multifunction embedded systems and multifrequency, integration of different alternatives and options in the superstructure and the analysis of the impact on the design and size of ship.
The F-110 is a vessel that will cover the functions between the BAM (Maritime Action Ships) and the F-100, aimed at medium intensity scenarios which will provide escort and maritime security. According to Martinez-Merello, this program is "a chance in the evolution of shipbuilding towards full nationalization by boosting ID programs.
Of course these thoughts are when wanting 20 jets, but probably the balance for handling and fast launching maybe you can have 18 f35b´s, and 6 or 7 asw helos and all the 6 medium spots free, so if the jets need at least 3 spots for the run, we can put a row of 4 or 5 (at least) for fast launching, 200 meters should be the 6 spots plus the ramp, so 3 spots probably at 100 meters, in 100 meters you can put how many f35b´s of 15 meters long....
I would say a bpe has no problem in sending a joint force of 18 jets 700 kms off the bpe for a maas attack...:hul
Its not the transport and launching thats the problem.
Its the sustained operation. You only have fuel bunkerage for maybe 1 week at a reasonable sortie rate (a few a day). Increasing fuel bunkerage, reduces your jet capacity. where do bombs get stored, even just dumping 500lb, JCI weapon bunkerage is not designed for long term missions. There are no dedicated aircraft maintence areas. Operating a full 20 F-35B in the air will drain your fuel bunkerage in hours.
The JCI I think does work as an emergency carrier. Load it up, ship it out, operate it for a week until you can get something more substancial there. Many missions a week of airsupport would be all thats required to capture an airport, or take out most targets with refuelled land based aircraft taking over or remove any air threats, or get Uk, France or US there with carrier support.
Its the sustained operation. You only have fuel bunkerage for maybe 1 week at a reasonable sortie rate (a few a day). Increasing fuel bunkerage, reduces your jet capacity. where do bombs get stored, even just dumping 500lb, JCI weapon bunkerage is not designed for long term missions. There are no dedicated aircraft maintence areas. Operating a full 20 F-35B in the air will drain your fuel bunkerage in hours.
The JCI I think does work as an emergency carrier. Load it up, ship it out, operate it for a week until you can get something more substancial there. Many missions a week of airsupport would be all thats required to capture an airport, or take out most targets with refuelled land based aircraft taking over or remove any air threats, or get Uk, France or US there with carrier support.
Alonso Quijano
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you have every reason!
that's why, I believe that if Spain takes in the future 20 F-35B also has to produce a new aircraft carriers for the aircraft and retire the PDA.
The PDA has a useful life of 10 years more, the same age as our harriers ...
and F-35B project would be like in 10 years, everything fits!
new aircraft and new aircraft carriers, the JCI can operate as a carrier but is not intended to do so.
If you just want more fuel/weapons you can use the design of the bpe, but if you want a bigger pda for more jets and ratios, i would go for the 2 parallel runs for launching recovering jets, that is more surface deck meters, probably a new design, something that would not be a problem because they have some years ahead still.
I remember i read both lifts are for the f35b´s.
If you want another munition liftt they can do it with the bpe design, enlarged.
But the prize of the f35b is 60-90 mill euro, and it weigths the double of a harrier, so the harrier like haflprice of that, 30-45 mill euro, and with probably inferior electronic capacities, of some type, so still less, that is probably <25... but with some competitive electronics, adopted from the eurofighter for example.
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