The Japanese military is not that much stronger that the south korean military. The ROK ground army is better than Japan's. With the new ships, The ROK will be able to have a navy comparable and almost equal to the navy of Japan. I think however it is a great idea for the ROK to obtain a modern Blue Water Navy. Their new Sejong the Great class destroyers are amazing ships. They are known as "Super Burkes." The ROK needs a strong navy to fend of N. Korea and the PRC.
South Korean Navy
- Thread starter fylr71
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Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure anyone says it was. The point made (that I saw) was that Japan could defend itself from anything South Korea threw at it.
Ground forces are somewhat irrelevant. Although (for example) South Korea has more tanks than Japan, its ground forces are partly tied up watching the border. Also any conflict between South Korea and Japan would probably be naval/airborne/both.
As to those military branches that might come into conflict, one thing about the JMSDF is that it has a large number of P-3C Orion aircraft, more AEGIS destroyers, more standard destroyers and more submarines than the ROKN. So the JMSDF would have a significant advantage.
The JASDF is also larger than the ROKAF.
Not in total numbers of combat aircraft. S. Korea has significantly more fighters & attack aircraft, though on average of lower capability.
From The Military Balance 2007
Japan:
F-15J 150, F-2 40 (+20 F-2B training), F-4EJ 70, RF-4EJ 20. Total 280
S. Korea:
F-15K 12, F-16C/D 153, F-4D/E 130, F-5E/F 185, RF-4C 18, RF-5A 5. Total 503.
Japan has force multipliers: 14 AEW (10 E-2C & 4 E-767). S. Korea won't have any in service for a few years. Japans first B-767 tankers enter service this year, & S. Korea has none. It could be true to say that the JASDF is stronger than the ROKAF (though the ROKAF has more stand-off weapons, & perhaps better AAMs - AIM-120). But it is not larger, even counting the JMSDFs 80 P-3C vs the ROKNs 8 P-3C & 8 S-2E.
Neither is designed to fight the other (good!). The navies are equipped for different types of war, & so are the air forces. And the armies can't reach each other.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Yeah I was discounting the less able fighters, such as the F-5 and F-4.
performance
New Member
In 2020 which is goal of reunification for Korea, will be a different story. Today the South Korea government has alot of things budgeted and being built still because of the financial crisis.
In the event of a Japan/SK war, the defining factor will be ground forces which the Koreans dominate in. It is a well known fact that Japan's ground forces are very weak. Any such war between the 2 will be won on the ground.
The Koreans have much more offensive missile capabailities as well. The US government has Japan so hamstringed after the pacific war I doubt it would win any real war without American help.
In the event of a Japan/SK war, the defining factor will be ground forces which the Koreans dominate in. It is a well known fact that Japan's ground forces are very weak. Any such war between the 2 will be won on the ground.
The Koreans have much more offensive missile capabailities as well. The US government has Japan so hamstringed after the pacific war I doubt it would win any real war without American help.
performance
New Member
In a nutshell...
1. Superior tanks, I seriously doubt any T-90 taking out an xk-2
2. Poorly defended strategic air defense units
3. S.K.'s active troops are 3 times the size of Japan
The most important point
4. Japan is impossible to defend against an incursion onto Japanese mainland. It is strategically impossible to do so without bankrupting the country. Dont get me wrong they can and will defend but and well thought out plan will destroy the country at the very least.
Japan in an all out war without US support(hypothetically), relies solely on maritime defenses.
How do you envisage Korean ground forces being brought to bear in sufficent strength?
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
They couldn't be - the US would intervene if it came to ground assaults and knock both sides' heads together.
Any clash would be primarily naval/air.
It's also worth remembering why South Korea has larger ground forces - North Korea. They'd be fools to use more than a pittance of the ROKA against Japan, especially with the US reducing its troop numbers in Korea.
performance
New Member
I couldn't give you a definitive answer, but a few things come to mind.
1. It is impossible for Japan to develop maritime defenses that would defend against ground incursion.
2. Japanese are aware of this as well and state strong ground forces are necessary for the protection of Japan, however the reality is ground forces of the Japan are abysmal.
3. In the event of ground troops landing on Japan mainland in sufficient numbers, it becomes only a matter of time.
Everything is based on maritime defenses and suffice to say they are not capable of defending off any sort of co-ordinated planning.
performance
New Member
This is a hypothetical situation. It is assumed for the sake of argument that the US is not going to intervene. Politically this would never happen, because Japan is a subsidiary of the US. The US government has Japan set up so that it will never be able to strike preemptively, which means North or South would have to attack first. Even if it did, it will be a very short lived Japanese operation.
Adding confounding variables to support your argument does not strength your viewpoint.
Correction, Japan wants a war primarily naval/air. Any modern military force will be aware of Japan's weak ground troops and its priority will be to land on the mainland.
Will Japan be able to prevent any ground troops landing? No, definitely not. The question is will sufficient numbers be able to, as Swerve has stated.
That is debatable, but as the S.K. naval forces grow stronger and with the fact that S.K. has cruise missiles capable of striking Japanese land targets its not a very strong one.
1. I'm pretty sure Type-90 would give a good account of itself against a tank that hasn't even entered service yet. And I'm as fascinated as anyone to learn how you plan to get this all-conquering force onto the beach in the first place. I hope your plan doesn't depend on the regions premier Navy falling asleep. And battles ain't just won with tanks my friend, look at Iraq.
2. Poorly defended by whom? One of Asia's most professional air forces? Not to mention the fact that the JGSDF's SAM launcher numbers stand at about 800 (200 alone of which are I-HAWK) backed up by a very modern ground-based radar, AWACS and C4I system. For near on 50 years, the Japanese have done nothing butdefend their airspace against the Soviets.
3. Yes that is true. South Korea's army however relies on conscription. The starting salary for a conscripted Private 1st Class in the ROKA is 30 US Dollars a Month (Jane's World Armies, online update 19 June 2007). For the Accountants among us... Compare that to a South Vietnamese PFC in the ARVN back in 1975 - they were on 7 US Dollars a month. I have one word - Inflation!
The JGSDF on the other hand is an all-volunteer force with a retention level actually higher than that of any NATO army. Highly trained, well led, well paid, blessed with some excellent kit (their artillery is second to none) its also seemingly very well motivated - I have a feeling that 3 to 1 advantage would count for very little indeed.
And for my most important points -
1. Japan spends twice as much on defence than South Korea does and has the capacity to spend even more. Could South Korea realistically do likewise and elevate itself to one of the top-6 defence spenders in the World so easily?
2. You say that in such a conflict (as far-fetched as it seems to me), ground forces count the most. As stated though, you have to get there first, which in my humble opinion would be impossible. Japan's Navy would have a field-day with the JASDF mopping up whats left.
3. Fascinated by numbers? ROKA may have a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower at the moment. The population of Japan is 3 times bigger than that of South Korea. If mobilised, Japan would always have a clear advantage.
4. Finally Japan's unique defence doctrine. Although committed to "self-defence" and a lot of 'spin' by the Japanese Government has gone into maintaining this image, but the simple truth is that Japan has developed everything necessary to if 'push-comes-to-shove', very rapidly become a nuclear power. Granted, South Korea too has the capacity to develop nuclear weapons - but what a pointless arms race that would be for East Asia's two leading democracies.
Anyway, this is not the topic of this thread. I honestly hope your view is not the general opinion of the South Korean nation. With both Pyongyang's regime and that in Beijing, I would rather see South Korea and Japan work together to promote democracy, human rights and free trade in a region that has seen its fair share of conflict.
Don't they have a dispute over some of the islands between Korea and Japan?
Really over the sea around them. The islands (Dokdo, Takeshima or the Liancourt rocks) have an area of 18.6 hectares, or 54 acres. And most of that's near vertical (peaks of 100 & 174 metres) , & useless to anything except a seagull. Like a couple of Rockalls.
South Korea is in possession of the rocks (there are some marine guards). It therefore seems highly improbable that S. Korea would start a war to gain possession of what it already has. For the rocks to be a casus belli would require Japan to attack them, which seems equally improbable. Both sides fish the waters around them, neatly escaping any quarrel by jointly regulating both the disputed & neighbouring undisputed waters. Their close cooperation on this & other practical matters does not sit easily with talk of war.
Quite enough of this digression. Anyone want to talk about the S. Korean navy?
So the year 2020 is the goal for reunification, please enlighten me on who`s goal this is, ROK will have to deal with North Korea first which will not be a easy task to accomplish including with all their new up to date hardware. Do not forget to throw in the China factor either on this who will do everything in her power to prevent a free democratic society like ROK on her borders.
You over estimate the XK2, it is not the super weapon that will over power a Type 90 like you think, and like some one else has mentioned, the bloody thing isn`t even built yet and could get written off due to other priorities at the current time including the fact that North Korea has joined the nuke club.
I think you under estimate Japans capabilities, saber rattling by North Korea and China has done nothing more than get Japans public in on a major force build up which they have the money to do, even more than the ROK.
Japans blue water navy is one of the best that are out there and they do have the experience factor over the ROK. One of my brother inlaws in the ROK is a navy officer and he doesn`t share your view points in regards to Japan, he has nothing but respect for their capabilities.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Obviously some people only want to talk about it if they can say it's better than the MSDF.
I really do not know much about naval capabilities, what is your impression on the ROKs naval capabilities. Also let me apologize for responding to someones post, I was blown away be the reunification goal of 2020.Obviously some people only want to talk about it if they can say it's better than the MSDF.
performance
New Member
I will enlighten you. 2020 is the goal set by the government. Will they suceed? I have no idea. But I assure you that 2020 is the goal. The Kaesong Industrial Complex and the new US-ROK FTA agreement includes North Korean made goods for this reason.
Forgot to add this, but the current plan for reunification according to the ROK government is to keep North and South two separate entities controlled by 1 government. The technological gap between the two would bring SK down like a rock.
No China will not do whatever it can to stop a democratic Korea. It is limited to its options. China in its current state up to 2020 will not have the option of war. US is still by far stronger and could easily destroy the Chinese navy. This is one of the reasons why China pressured NK, although reluctantly. This is one of the reasons why they stress to the US government that they will grow peacefully. If the US intelligence even gathers a whiff of some new objective set by the Imperials in China you can bet your ass that US will sent some big ass carriers that way. You are talking politics when you have zero clue what is going on in the region.
I haven't overestimated the XK2. You are in a state of denial about the XK2. It is far superior to the t90. It is up there with Leclerc, Leopard and M1A2.
I have a ton of respect for Japan's navy. They are in a similar geopolitical situation as the Brits, which is why they stress Naval force so much. But you are not getting the point. EVERY military force in this world knows how weak the ground forces in Japan are.
Japanese government's defense policy, which is publicly available, states how protecting Japan from a ground invasion is next to impossible even with the best Naval force in the world.
What you dont understand is the proximity of Japan and Korea and how that is strategically important. You vastly overestimate Japan's naval forces. Neither SK or Japan have blue water navies. The number of active personnel in Japan's navy doesn't even make the top 10. They have currently 4 working AEGIS destroyers, which is much more than the 0-1 SK has but 4 is a very far cry from dominating the sea.
You have no idea what you are talking about. And please dont give me this crap about I'm a master gunner and I was stationed in SK.