And all you needed to do to save yourself from embarassment was to do a bit of googling.
http://www.kanzaki.com/jpoll/2001/
South Korean Navy
- Thread starter fylr71
- Start date
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
As Transient showed it would have been very easy for you to check that Japanese have been pro-Article 9 in the past. If you still want to dispute his findings, you go provide some evidence to the contrary.
Why the hell does the fact I'm not from South Korea affect whether I'm reasonable or not? Does your nationality affect whether the same applies to you? It doesn't, so don't say such silly things.
I should also say the same to you. You carry on as if you're always right - maybe you shouldn't be so quick to assume you're the reasonable one.
Schumacher
New Member
Of course, u know the result has nothing to do with the fact that they are aware of the repercussion of dropping art. 9.And all you needed to do to save yourself from embarassment was to do a bit of googling.
http://www.kanzaki.com/jpoll/2001/
Or that they just simply are reluctant to change something that's a part of the country for a long time.
U seem to think there're countries which would willingly subject themselves to such restrictions in the first place without any pressure.
Perhaps ur from such a country ?
Schumacher
New Member
Look at my response to Transient. Do u think UK will willingly vote to be subjected restrictions as in art. 9 ?
I'm not from SK & as u read my posts, I just say what I think to have contributed to their views of Japan. U should do the same instead of being so sure they're unreasonable with regard to their feelings.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant - the UK is not Japan. Every country is different and has a right to follow their own philosophy. Germany spends very little of its GDP on defence and also does not have things like nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, etc. Just because they don't have an Article 9 doesn't mean they don't follow a similar way of thinking to Japan.
You're digging yourself a hole here. Why not just admit you made a mistake? Or don't you make mistakes?
I didn't say their feelings were unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect a country to conform to restrictions such as Article 9 just because of a war that happened 60+ years ago. I think part of it is that South Korea is trying to keep Japan restrained because it wants less competition over existing territorial disputes.
Schumacher
New Member
U still don't get it. U think the fact that Germany does not go nuke has no relation to what happened in the past or what they fear of Europe's reaction might be ?
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Schumacher, you are still digging away. Come up with evidence that the reason Japan has kept Article 9 has nothing to do with a pacifist attitude in Japan, or just admit you made a mistake. It is very childish for you to cling to this belief the only reason Japan has it is because of outside pressure.
Or is it because you're biased towards Japan and don't want to believe it's peaceful at heart?
OK... this is getting a bit out of hand..
Before the Mods start to come crashing down,
Kenshin,
I can understand your having a gereral bias for Japan. It is more difficult
to understand why you are so prejudiced against Koreans.
Japan may deserve the credit you give them as it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influend on the world, however I know Korea doesn't deserve what
you throw at them.
What has Asian nations concerned is that Japanese population is largely uneducated when it comes to its imperialist past. Denying their wrong doings
and painting themselves as victims has them worried. Imagine Germans
denying holocaust, or rather ignorant that it ever occured. Those that not
horrify you? That's how Koreans and other Asians feel. I'd think their desire
to give Japanese a short leash on military forces is rather understandable
in this reguard.
That said, yes Japan has the right to amend its constitution if it wants to.
It still doesn't mean that other countries shouldn't have the freedom of
objecting to it. They are not forcing Japan to do anything, just putting on
diplomatic pressure to disuade them. There is nothing aggressive in that.
Before the Mods start to come crashing down,
Kenshin,
I can understand your having a gereral bias for Japan. It is more difficult
to understand why you are so prejudiced against Koreans.
Japan may deserve the credit you give them as it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influend on the world, however I know Korea doesn't deserve what
you throw at them.
What has Asian nations concerned is that Japanese population is largely uneducated when it comes to its imperialist past. Denying their wrong doings
and painting themselves as victims has them worried. Imagine Germans
denying holocaust, or rather ignorant that it ever occured. Those that not
horrify you? That's how Koreans and other Asians feel. I'd think their desire
to give Japanese a short leash on military forces is rather understandable
in this reguard.
That said, yes Japan has the right to amend its constitution if it wants to.
It still doesn't mean that other countries shouldn't have the freedom of
objecting to it. They are not forcing Japan to do anything, just putting on
diplomatic pressure to disuade them. There is nothing aggressive in that.
Schumacher
New Member
I only base my belief on assuming most if not all normal nations would not willingly subject themselves to such restrictions unless forced to by diplomatic or military pressure. I'm quite sure UK wouldn't.
You are correct - the only pressure for Japan to keep Article 9 seems to be coming from with in Japan, the U.S would be over joyed to see it go away.
Schumacher
New Member
And Asian nations will be overjoyed to see it dropped.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Schumacher, you are completely ignoring the fact that most countries (like the UK) have not had their constitutions forced upon them by other powers. Japan had no choice after 1945. But after the Allied occupation ended and Japan rebuilt itself, the Japanese decided they quite liked the idea of not being able to fight again. Why would they want to wage war after all the misery of WWII?
Why is it so difficult for you to accept that a people might want to avoid another destructive war by renouncing their right to wage war?
Not China and the Koreas. Though other countries wouldn't object.
If some of them are smart they will, China may not be a force that can cause a major impact as of today, but the future will be different.And Asian nations will be overjoyed to see it dropped.
Schumacher
New Member
We're getting closer. It was forced upon them by war. Now to the present, u seem to think the the fact that it'll create much controversy in Asia by dropping it has no relation to their reluctance to dropping it now. I think it has a lot to do with it. And fear of another war is stopping them too.
The last thing Asians want is a peace maintained by Japanese might. It
would be equivalent of a German-centered peace system in Europe. Just
not acceptable, brings back all kinds of memories. US is more than capable
of handling China. Wouldn't be worried just now.
Schumacher
New Member
Yeah, why can't they be smarter & let u decide who they want to worry abt ?
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I didn't say there was no relation, but it is still a choice that the Japanese people will make by themselves. If that wasn't the case, why would support for revising Article 9 be increasing when according to you it would still cause controversy in Asia?
So is Asia willing to accept China as a military might, correct at the moment there is no cause for alarm concerning China but in the future this may not be the case.
It is understandable how some of you may have a general bias
for Japan. After all it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influence on
the world. It is a great nation with huge potential that has not
demonstrated aggresiveness during the last half century.
However to disregard its neighbors concerns as mere zeal is a mistake.
Japanses population tend to be uneducated when it come to its dark
past. They simply are not aware of the atrocities that were suffered by
people other than themselves. They always view themselves as the
victim when they look back on history. This has Asian nations frustrated.
If they were so innocent back then, who murdered raped and mutilated so
many? Imaging Germans denying Holocaust, you wouldn't quite trust them
either.
Maybe you are right, Japan did choose to stay a pacifist country for
the last 50 yrs. So stay that way. Why change the constitution when
even with it you have built your self a more than capable navy and huge
airpower. Japan if it wants to can relive its grand military tradition anytime.
We want some assurance that it won't do so.
Is that such an unreasonable expectation?
for Japan. After all it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influence on
the world. It is a great nation with huge potential that has not
demonstrated aggresiveness during the last half century.
However to disregard its neighbors concerns as mere zeal is a mistake.
Japanses population tend to be uneducated when it come to its dark
past. They simply are not aware of the atrocities that were suffered by
people other than themselves. They always view themselves as the
victim when they look back on history. This has Asian nations frustrated.
If they were so innocent back then, who murdered raped and mutilated so
many? Imaging Germans denying Holocaust, you wouldn't quite trust them
either.
Maybe you are right, Japan did choose to stay a pacifist country for
the last 50 yrs. So stay that way. Why change the constitution when
even with it you have built your self a more than capable navy and huge
airpower. Japan if it wants to can relive its grand military tradition anytime.
We want some assurance that it won't do so.
Is that such an unreasonable expectation?