IMO, the 8.5 million price tag effectively doomed the tank as an unsuccessful attempt, regardless of its actual capability or technological achievement. I still stand by my viewpoint that the tank is not built out of neccessity. Then again, I've been wrong many times before.
South Korea launches Amphibious Tank XK2
- Thread starter SATAN
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They do keep pushing out the roll out date, and if they are gambling on exporting it to lower costs then they have a uphill battle with all the other MBT`s that are available for export. This tank will be limited on it`s offensive capability due to terrian issues and having to fight off masses of enemy troops in a rather small amount of real estate. Mountains, hills and rice paddies are not ideal for offensive engagements but rather defensive engagements.
IIRC they were looking to build 650 units for there own use, this plus export orders were to lower the unit cost, by how much, now thats the question!
But personally I think selling weapons is immoral, esp if its just to make them cheaper for your self! but then I'm pissing in the wind....
The Abrams history dates back to the MBT-70 project. In the 70's a tank that cost about 2,5 mln $ was crazy work. But in the 1980's, the M1 Abrams was the same price. And then it was really needed, the US army placed an order to replace their old M48A5 with is 1975 technology. In 1995 all M48A5's were phased out in favor of the most modern tank: The M1A2. The K-2 will also fall in price and then maybe 6 or 7 miln $ would be cheap in the near future. In 1960, 1 million dollar was a huge amount amout of money like it is 1 bln $ at present.
Sue the K-2 will be sold, but when the mass prduction has started, and technics are applied to make the K-2 cheaper than ever. At present, no country would pay 8 mln$ for a MBT. But the K-2's technology can be used to modernize almost obsolescent MBT's like the Leopard-2A4 or older to meet today's needs or the first M1 Abrams maybe. But I prefer to built cheaper tanks instead of modernizing your whole fleet.
Turkey (Yes always Turkey
: ) has decided to phase 1000 M48A5T1 (M60A1 standard) out of service when more advanced MBT's are available, the Leo-2A4 and the Sabra Mk.2 MBT. And later our first indigenously designed tank with most Turkish parts on it. (some are foreign licenced, but more than 51% makes it a national, thus enough to call it indigenously designed). I also think that this tank will be also 8 mln $ per each tank and after a couple of years the price will drop. I will wait what this tank will do against the K-2 after a couple of years.
Sue the K-2 will be sold, but when the mass prduction has started, and technics are applied to make the K-2 cheaper than ever. At present, no country would pay 8 mln$ for a MBT. But the K-2's technology can be used to modernize almost obsolescent MBT's like the Leopard-2A4 or older to meet today's needs or the first M1 Abrams maybe. But I prefer to built cheaper tanks instead of modernizing your whole fleet.
Turkey (Yes always Turkey
: ) has decided to phase 1000 M48A5T1 (M60A1 standard) out of service when more advanced MBT's are available, the Leo-2A4 and the Sabra Mk.2 MBT. And later our first indigenously designed tank with most Turkish parts on it. (some are foreign licenced, but more than 51% makes it a national, thus enough to call it indigenously designed). I also think that this tank will be also 8 mln $ per each tank and after a couple of years the price will drop. I will wait what this tank will do against the K-2 after a couple of years.I am new here! WELCOME ME
XK-2 is expensive! but we had to make it not to be left behind China and Japan, as they also have very nice tanks upon their propogandas
All "indegenious" debate makes me feel laugh. If ADD licensed, they pay, if not, they don't pay. What's wrong with it?
I understand there are too many "indegenious" mentions around SHARK's posts. I ain't no expert on this but I know what is fact and what not.
Mr. eckherl, if you know any proof that any "indegenious" part claimed by ADD is merely of propaganda, please enlighten me. I can make big money by providing it to Korean news media!!! (what about 50:50?)
O but still sorry to hear that SHARK was mentioning "westerner" something. That was bad!!!
XK-2 is expensive! but we had to make it not to be left behind China and Japan, as they also have very nice tanks upon their propogandas
All "indegenious" debate makes me feel laugh. If ADD licensed, they pay, if not, they don't pay. What's wrong with it?
I understand there are too many "indegenious" mentions around SHARK's posts. I ain't no expert on this but I know what is fact and what not.
Mr. eckherl, if you know any proof that any "indegenious" part claimed by ADD is merely of propaganda, please enlighten me. I can make big money by providing it to Korean news media!!!
(what about 50:50?)O but still sorry to hear that SHARK was mentioning "westerner" something. That was bad!!!
@Soner
The problem with using the K2 tech for modernizing older tanks like the Leopard IIA4 is that there is a wide variety of upgrade options provided by Rheinmetall and KMW for the Leos.
I doubt that this can be done cheaper by using K2 tech which has to be modified (And this costs money).
And often enough the contracts for second hand Leo IIA4s include that modernization has to be done by our companies.
The problem with using the K2 tech for modernizing older tanks like the Leopard IIA4 is that there is a wide variety of upgrade options provided by Rheinmetall and KMW for the Leos.
I doubt that this can be done cheaper by using K2 tech which has to be modified (And this costs money).
And often enough the contracts for second hand Leo IIA4s include that modernization has to be done by our companies.
Yes it can be true, possibly it is more expensive than the Volkan, and almost the same quality I think in accuracy. Only the Leopard-1T (leopard-1A1A1 with Volkan upgrade) has the 105mm gun retained, this is one of its drawbacks. Oh before I forget, the armor is also weak by todays standards for a MBT.
Still I'm looking what the MÍTÜP (National Tank Project) will use of foreign help to produce this kind of tank over 5 years.
Still I'm looking what the MÍTÜP (National Tank Project) will use of foreign help to produce this kind of tank over 5 years.
Why you got puke of the indigenous talks?
Did you know that the aotomotive industry in Konya, Turkey also produces some parts for the Leopard tanks for Germany? The Leopard-2 tank is also not 100% German, but rather 95% German with the critic parts produced in Germany, and the less important parts are produced world wide.
Also, the MÍTÜP tank will also comprise of foreign produced tank parts. But Turkey want to try to produce it so mostly as it can at local industries with 51% or more of Turkish ownership. FNSS, BMC and Otokar are all 100% Turkish at present, till 2003 I think the FNSS was Turco-American AFV facility with the then FMC (later United Defence, and then BEA Systems). So, I believe that from now on the Turkish factories will design and roduce a tank.
Did you know that the aotomotive industry in Konya, Turkey also produces some parts for the Leopard tanks for Germany? The Leopard-2 tank is also not 100% German, but rather 95% German with the critic parts produced in Germany, and the less important parts are produced world wide.
Also, the MÍTÜP tank will also comprise of foreign produced tank parts. But Turkey want to try to produce it so mostly as it can at local industries with 51% or more of Turkish ownership. FNSS, BMC and Otokar are all 100% Turkish at present, till 2003 I think the FNSS was Turco-American AFV facility with the then FMC (later United Defence, and then BEA Systems). So, I believe that from now on the Turkish factories will design and roduce a tank.
I am new here! WELCOME ME
XK-2 is expensive! but we had to make it not to be left behind China and Japan, as they also have very nice tanks upon their propogandas
All "indegenious" debate makes me feel laugh. If ADD licensed, they pay, if not, they don't pay. What's wrong with it?
I understand there are too many "indegenious" mentions around SHARK's posts. I ain't no expert on this but I know what is fact and what not.
Mr. eckherl, if you know any proof that any "indegenious" part claimed by ADD is merely of propaganda, please enlighten me. I can make big money by providing it to Korean news media!!!
O but still sorry to hear that SHARK was mentioning "westerner" something. That was bad!!!
Welcome Bitterz to the forumI am new here! WELCOME ME
XK-2 is expensive! but we had to make it not to be left behind China and Japan, as they also have very nice tanks upon their propogandas
All "indegenious" debate makes me feel laugh. If ADD licensed, they pay, if not, they don't pay. What's wrong with it?
I understand there are too many "indegenious" mentions around SHARK's posts. I ain't no expert on this but I know what is fact and what not.
Mr. eckherl, if you know any proof that any "indegenious" part claimed by ADD is merely of propaganda, please enlighten me. I can make big money by providing it to Korean news media!!!
O but still sorry to hear that SHARK was mentioning "westerner" something. That was bad!!!
What specific question do you have for me.
My specific questions I would like to ask you at the moment is why is it that you view Japan as a threat, please keep old times at bay with your answer.
Also you don`t think that your government would over hype the K2, 8 million dollars is a tough pill to swallow for a tank when you already have one that is capable of handling any potential threat in that regoin.
Also could you tell me what exactly the K2 has that was strictly designed with out using any one elses technology, tell me what is so bench mark that the Russians, French, Germans, UK and the U.S.A will be scrambling to get this technology.
Again - the K2 is ROK`s tank, it is a good tank, they should be proud of it, I hope they can sell it on the international market, but that will be tough with all the competition that is out there.
Ooh... I see that things got a little heated.
If I may answer the questions, eckherl.
I do agree with you that Japan and ROK is not likely to confront each other in any near future. What I think BitterZ is implying is that ROK is looking beyond DPRK in terms of preparing a viable defence.
Prototypes are generally expensive cause it has to even out the development costs. The price will go down with mass production.
K2 while borrowing concepts and ideas, is focused on domestical realization of those technologies. The gun for instance is a totally independent piece of work by the ADD. Did it lean on its experience from license producing Rheinmetal guns? Yes it did. That doesn't mean the new 55 caliber gun is a copy. Powerpacks are under development, the ones in the prototype are german MTU883s, to be ready by 2011.
As you said K2 is not a entirely new idea that is being introduced. Rather it has taken from various new ideas already out in the market and put them togther to produce an outstanding MBT. That being said, it still means that ROK has optained the technology to materialize those concepts which requires research and development. If lesser class tier militaries are in demand of first class technologies ROK can help them out. turkey might turn out to be one such country.
If I may answer the questions, eckherl.
I do agree with you that Japan and ROK is not likely to confront each other in any near future. What I think BitterZ is implying is that ROK is looking beyond DPRK in terms of preparing a viable defence.
Prototypes are generally expensive cause it has to even out the development costs. The price will go down with mass production.
K2 while borrowing concepts and ideas, is focused on domestical realization of those technologies. The gun for instance is a totally independent piece of work by the ADD. Did it lean on its experience from license producing Rheinmetal guns? Yes it did. That doesn't mean the new 55 caliber gun is a copy. Powerpacks are under development, the ones in the prototype are german MTU883s, to be ready by 2011.
As you said K2 is not a entirely new idea that is being introduced. Rather it has taken from various new ideas already out in the market and put them togther to produce an outstanding MBT. That being said, it still means that ROK has optained the technology to materialize those concepts which requires research and development. If lesser class tier militaries are in demand of first class technologies ROK can help them out. turkey might turn out to be one such country.
Welcome daewon
I feel that if South Korea and Japan could put the past behind them and get into a close military cooperation treaty that this would be of great benefit to both countries. ( I know wishful thinking on my part )
This is what I was trying to get across to Blue Shark, inregards to the K2.
South Korea is capable of improving or fine tuning on some of the military technology that is out there.
One question that I have is inregards to the L55 though, what has South Korea done to make it better so that they do not have to rely on Rheinmetal mainguns, I understand that K2 has a auto loader and may need some modifications to the breech housing, but I do not understand what they actually did with the gun itself to make that better, Japan has even tried to make their own 120mm (actually did) and ended up going with the Rheinmetal because of gun performance.
It will be interesting to see what direction Turkey ends up going inregards to their future tank project if they do really decide to head in that direction.
Thank you for responding.
Thanks for replying!
Also thank Daewon for replying eckherl, as I am not expert at all.
For relationship between Korea and Japan, even though it can be hot for good reasons, both people shares a lot of common interests and quite friendly each other. I doubt there will be any military aggression between them. But both of politicians are sometimes out of mind
Because ROK Army fields lots of tanks (a few thousands) unlike Japan, it's economical to produce by ourselves. (Initial order for K2 be 600+, but it could grow up)I do not understand what they actually did with the gun itself to make that better, Japan has even tried to make their own 120mm (actually did) and ended up going with the Rheinmetal because of gun performance.
AFAIK, Turkey wants tech transfer not just imports, which will bring strong political considerations. Well, Turks are good horse-riders from central Asia, we love it!
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I know South Korea has the capability to build the guns, but are they going to do this under a license agreement with Germany, if not is it a direct copy or have you come up with the technology so that you can get more muzzle velocity out of it, maybe better barrel wear or have come up with something else.Thanks for replying!
Also thank Daewon for replying eckherl, as I am not expert at all.
For relationship between Korea and Japan, even though it can be hot for good reasons, both people shares a lot of common interests and quite friendly each other. I doubt there will be any military aggression between them. But both of politicians are sometimes out of mind
Because ROK Army fields lots of tanks (a few thousands) unlike Japan, it's economical to produce by ourselves. (Initial order for K2 be 600+, but it could grow up)
AFAIK, Turkey wants tech transfer not just imports, which will bring strong political considerations. Well, Turks are good horse-riders from central Asia, we love it!
South Korea built 120mm L44 guns under license from RM but never L55. The "indigeneous" part refers to the fact that ADD designed and built a L55 gun on its own, without turning to other blueprints out there. I don't have anything concrete to back me up but otherwise since there is no license contract, RM would have called for a lawsuit.
Eh.... I really have no idea how it would defer from RM L55s, though. There's just no info out there on it at the moment
Eh.... I really have no idea how it would defer from RM L55s, though. There's just no info out there on it at the moment
I would really be interested in knowing the performance level of this gun, do you know if they will be using DM53 or DM63 as a primary armor defeating round or have they come out with their own version.South Korea built 120mm L44 guns under license from RM but never L55. The "indigeneous" part refers to the fact that ADD designed and built a L55 gun on its own, without turning to other blueprints out there. I don't have anything concrete to back me up but otherwise since there is no license contract, RM would have called for a lawsuit.
Eh.... I really have no idea how it would defer from RM L55s, though. There's just no info out there on it at the moment
german can do it also korean can
german DM-53 APFSDS
L55 = 1750 m/s with DM 53
L55 = 810mm DM 53 (1km)
L44 = 650mm DM 53 (1km)
korea new APFSDS(xk2) developed by add
L55 1,850 m/s
L55 850mm (1km)
korea k276 APFSDS
L44 = 670 mm / 2 km , 700 mm / 1 km
the answer is ->their own version
german DM-53 APFSDS
L55 = 1750 m/s with DM 53
L55 = 810mm DM 53 (1km)
L44 = 650mm DM 53 (1km)
korea new APFSDS(xk2) developed by add
L55 1,850 m/s
L55 850mm (1km)
korea k276 APFSDS
L44 = 670 mm / 2 km , 700 mm / 1 km
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I have a site in my bookmarks. It is not confirmed by the manufacturer but it brings you to an idea. Again, it is not confirmed and sure not 100% reliable information.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm
Turkish tanks destroyed many Greek tanks in the 1974 war in Cyprus with their 90mm tank guns what it was impossible to penetrate Greek M48 armor at 2000 meters. But many tanks are destroyed with this gun and the prove is in Cyprus, south of Girne/Kirenya on some hills near the mountains.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mackenzie/ArmourPenetration.htm
Turkish tanks destroyed many Greek tanks in the 1974 war in Cyprus with their 90mm tank guns what it was impossible to penetrate Greek M48 armor at 2000 meters. But many tanks are destroyed with this gun and the prove is in Cyprus, south of Girne/Kirenya on some hills near the mountains.
I guess you could use it for wargamers, there is alot of mis-information.
Jup.
Why should this data be accurate when the autor not even knows where the L/55 is in use and where not (Switzerland didn't get it on 99, they do not even use it now)?
Or when he states that the british L27 APFSDS has nearly the same performance as the DM53 when the british MoD just recently anounced that with the introduction of the L/55 the firepower has seriously be improved over the L30?
Why should this data be accurate when the autor not even knows where the L/55 is in use and where not (Switzerland didn't get it on 99, they do not even use it now)?
Or when he states that the british L27 APFSDS has nearly the same performance as the DM53 when the british MoD just recently anounced that with the introduction of the L/55 the firepower has seriously be improved over the L30?