South Korea launches Amphibious Tank XK2

[Manfred]

Tanks hitting targets 8 km. away.... supersonic torpedoes.... Fanatical enemies giving economics top priority...... Im not even 50 yet and the world already looks like a very strange place!

 

[Letli]

I have never intended to do one of those silly 1 on 1 tank comparisons.

Silly? That would be trying to say one weapon system is superior to another.
Silly is trying to compare apples to oranges. Silly is trying to bring in more variables than you can handle.

Comparing 1 MBT to another is a basic rule in cutting down the number of variables for a meaningful analysis, saying the SPH will kill MBTs first or vice-versa is plain naive.

Bottom line, the XK2 is able to hit any comparable tank target first before they can - RANGE wise.

Bottom line 2, it can do so even if range is not the issue - INDIRECT fire (i.e. high trajectory) wise.

N.B. Note that the reason it has a purported 8km range isn't because its a Wunderwaffe or Luffwaffe miracle gun. Its purely the same old technology gun but fired at a high trajectory. KE rounds can reach that far too! But it'll not be able to hit anything without guidance
Which is something I'll regrettably have to repeat to eckherl as well.

You guys should give credit where its due. Or ponder the implications for tank combat.

Because of this I told you that using your tanks for shelling the enemy formations with indirect fire before they reach you is not that good because unlike SPHs they cannot just perform the shoot and scoot tactics when dug in in defense positions. And so enemy fire finder radar is going to pinpoint your nice prepared positions and soon enough arty and MLRS is raining onto you.

U're still bleating about using the XK2 like an SPH & then saying it will be crap? Is that ur idea of MBT armoured tactics?

The point is made & now trite. The XK2 fires KE rounds like any other but when KE rounds aren't appropriate, & many situations simply are such, it can circumvent that with smart rounds - indirect fire style.

You need to accept that this is what the XK2 is designed to do - not as a SPH.


And modern SPHs ARE fast enough to get away from their fire position before the enemy is coming close. A PzH2000 for example is fire ready in 30 sec than shoots 3 times in 10 sec and is away in max another min. All this without the battery being close together but scattered alot to make counterfire more difficult

And why do you think you get your 8km shots in the advance? How do you pinpoint the enemy positions good enough for a more or less precise shot above their heads?

The whole point is that at its maximum range, it is safe from any other MBT! Which is the whole point of narrowing down the variables to only MBT v MBT.

We often enough ran into enemy tanks in good defense positions within some hundred meters and had nearly never any firefight at more than 2000m during maneuvers. And the north german flatlands are one of the areas which are known for being suited well for tank warfare.

That's the same problem like when people say that tube launched 125mm ATGMs are going to snipe enemy tanks well before normal 120mm guns are in range.
When you are not in very very flat terrain with nearly no vegetation (aka desert) you are not going to get those long range shots.

I agree that long range guided ammo gives you some advantages during certain situations but it is for sure not the Wunderwaffe you make it.

Which only goes to show u're not appreciating the impact of an MBT being able to mix direct fire with indirect fire as the changing circumstances dictate.

The chief advantage of direct fire is its accuracy & decisiveness. Indirect fire has since time immemorial been invaluable for the exact kind of undulating terrain situations you purport to find limiting - which is a lack of direct line of sight. However, at the same breath you fail to appreciate that its smart terminal guidance that has recently enabled indirect fire to achieve the high hit probability.

Smart munitions have essentially 2 components that are different from dumb munitions like a KE round. Fins that can be manipulated to maneuvre the projectile & the guidance system (the brain + the eyes). So long as you have the first component, its a question of installing whatever/any appropriate form of the second. Laser, radar, image, heat seeking... any of that depending on whether you have RAV drones, forward observers or operating on fire & forget.

Wunderwaffe would be the word some insist on using for the KE round. The right choice of smart munitions can do far more amazing shots than that.

I find it really hard to believe that in this day and age, I have to explain the significance of smart munitions. Its like its a taboo subject because the KE round is the resident favourite. Notice how the OCIW & all that jazz is based on indirect fire smart munitions?

BTW, you could be a little bit more patient and stop shouting around that nobody here as a clue about how modern armor works, especially not at eckherl.

BTW, u ought to know what shouting means first - CAPSLOCK ALL THE WAY. Yep, people on forums shouldn't be too impatient, or is that thin-skinned?

 

[Letli]

The problem is tanks will not be slugging it out alone, you will have your artillery and air assetts that your opponent will have to contend with, also a KE penetrator will rip right thru a hasty defensive position, and with the speed of modern warfare the chances of your opponent having a well dug reinforced fighting position will be slim. With Modern technology in battlefield management systems and weapons platforms, the battle of Kursk scenarios are well gone. Smart munitions have a place on the battlefield, just not as a primary armor defeating round on a MBT.

I've said time & again to you guys, if you want to mix all the weapons systems of combined arms warfare, try taking into account the space gun fired from orbit to destroy your tanks in the hull-down position.

I've said time & again, narrow it down to MBT v MBT & you will achieve the proper focus & clarity of thought.

Grasp the point - the XK2 does not REQUIRE any other weapon system to aid it in taking out enemy positions in defilade position. In armoured warfare, where deep thrusts behind enemy lines can leave you isolated (even if for a brief time, save for air support - dun go there again!), that is critical. An MBT goner.

 

[eckherl]

I've said time & again to you guys, if you want to mix all the weapons systems of combined arms warfare, try taking into account the space gun fired from orbit to destroy your tanks in the hull-down position.

I've said time & again, narrow it down to MBT v MBT & you will achieve the proper focus & clarity of thought.

Grasp the point - the XK2 does not REQUIRE any other weapon system to aid it in taking out enemy positions in defilade position. In armoured warfare, where deep thrusts behind enemy lines can leave you isolated (even if for a brief time, save for air support - dun go there again!), that is critical. An MBT goner.

Get realistic here, you have over estimated the capabilities of this tank. All current tanks that are out there can have the same type of munitions fired from them with some modifications to the FCS, Russian armor can surely do it.
I would put a M1A2 or Leopard 2A5/6 up against this tank with confidence and the ability to destroy it, but again the chances of just tanks going at it is quite unrealistic due in part of the benefits of a combined arms team. ROK manufacturing of KE penetrators is alive and well and it will continue to be their primary armor defeating round along with everyone else. If you would like to go the route of ETC weapons I am all ears on your knowledge of this seeings how that technology is closer in reality instead of a tank driving 40 MPH and engaging tanks at distance of 8KM away with pin point accuracy. My friend - all your round would be in is along the lines of a LEHAT round.
Do you know why they decided to place this feature on the XK2, because about the time it starts rolling off the assembly lines the chances of other tanks having this option are quite feasible, combat load for this round on the XK2 will range from three to five rounds.

 

[Letli]

you can fire approximately 3 to 4 KE projectiles versus one of these very expensive munitions.

& miss or be dead while trying to do so. They realised the folly a long time with air dropped 500 lb / 1000 lb bombs during Desert Storm. Its much cheaper to fit dumb bombs with guidance systems.

 

[Letli]

Do you honestly think that you can fire this munition going full speed and locked on a target 8 km away.

Do you honestly think that precision guided munitions require your tank to maintain constant lock?

I shouldn't need to explain how guidance systems work, there are so many on the market! As I mentioned & sigh have to repeat... lasers can be illuminated by numerous other sources (forward observers, RAV drones, high altitude cruising support aircraft, other stationary vehicles with a better line of sight... humvees, recon bikes, buggies).

TV image / IR / mm radar seeker heads for fire & forget... it just depends on the situation need + the appetite for budget.

In modern warfare when fighting a sizable well equiped opponent there is no such thing as a stand off range, you stop you die.

Ironically you were the one who insisted that armour doesn't need to …“charge at defensive position at full speed and engaging targets at 8km …”.

I’ll point out the other dumb way to die – when your favourite KE round (plus other direct fire weapons), essentially your main gun - is ineffective against another MBT staring at you from a hull down position.

No such thing as a stand off range? You're arguments are sounding more flawed by the post. Do you live in the era of the bayonet charge? Or is that the cavalry charge.

The cardinal rule is always - Engage the enemy as soon as you can, as soon as you can - at maximum range. Better still if they cannot reach you.

Wait, eckherl, u shldn't be making me repeat the boxing example.

 

[eckherl]

& miss or be dead while trying to do so. They realised the folly a long time with air dropped 500 lb / 1000 lb bombs during Desert Storm. Its much cheaper to fit dumb bombs with guidance systems.

What does air dropped munitions have to do with tanks firing KE projectiles, a well trained tank crew on a modern MBT can and will most likely hit you with the first round. I tend to like top attack cluster munitions fired from artillery or air delivered, that way I do not have to settle for destroying just one tank I can most likely take out a whole platoon or company. They also work great for restricting movement of your opponent thus keeping them contained in a defensive position so that you can take up or bypass their real estate, when that happens they lose.

 

[Letli]

Man-man... In reality it is NOT working like that. First, armored self-propelled artillery are almost as vulnerable/invulnerable to enemy artillery/airpower as a tank - i.e. require direct hit. So, if your artillery is blown by enemy artillery then you can be sure what your tanks are already buring as well.

Chrome, direct fire is not the same as direct hit. Indirect fire is not the same as indirect hit (is there such a thing... ? Wait its called a miss!)
U got the terminology wrong.

KISS principle, keep things simple & think along the lines of MBT v MBT, this isn't an artillery thread.

Second, throwing most vital componets of modern combined forces out of equation... well, may be we throw also infantry out of equation and will not defend tanks against ATGM's? May be we throw out SAM's out of equation and we need now SAM capability on every tank? It's just stupid. Tank dont need to be all-in-one wonder.

Like I said, stupid is trying to judge how good a tank is against artillery, or the high-powered laser in low orbit.

This is a new tank, stay on track by comparing it against other tanks. Stay on track by thinking how it changes/revolutionizes tank warfare.

Its always the case that people try to bring in all sorts of convulating variables when they cannot offer any meaningful analysis of the issue at hand. How effective the KV2 is, measured against others in its class.

Or should we start comparing how the KV2 will function against the Imperial Star Destroyer or wait ... wait... Darth Maul's light sabre!

The targetting will be huge issue here. Besides, as i said, if enemy artillery can reach your artillery 30km behind you (or MLRS 80km behind you) then your tanks are already burned.
This may be true, but again i'm not sure what korean variant of smart ammunition can do the trick up close. The projectile should be much too agile if its gonna hit something behind the slope. Besides, T-90 Air-bust feature can deal with most of these issues as well and much, much cheaper.

Chrome, if you have a fixation with artillery like everyone else, there's surely an artillery thread you can start. If you have any opinion on tank warfare... I've yet to be enlightened.

Thats why every tank is equipped with self dug-in devices, and that why every tank battalion have ingeniering vehicles.

Since when do all tanks have bulldozer attachment arms? Only selected few tanks per unit do that and the reason is obvious… weight! Most times, it’s the combat engineers who bring up the equipment.

But then again, whats the point you’re making? If you acknowledge how entrenched the defilade & hull down doctrines are, surely you acknowledge the limitations of direct fire & KE rounds.

 

[Letli]

This is totally wrong. Rifled barrels offer absolutely NO benefits in accuracy firing APFSDS rounds - in fact, they offer LESS accuracy here. And, for the record, i'm 100% sure what Challenger have no advatage in accuracy compared to other modern tanks - M1A2, Leopard, Leclerc, T-90. This so much promoted 5km wonder hit is just that - wonder hit.

Chrom, you're totally wrong here. U've misinterpreted many thing. Its not the barrels per se... its the aerodynamics imparted by the barrel. Its a question of fins versus spin. You need to know the differences between smoothbore & rifled ballistics.

The accuracy is a matter of the windage etc. But far easier for me to now just quote...

There is a reason why the maximum range of KE rounds has plateau-ed, which I thought I've elaborated before. Short of rail gun technology to increase the velocity of rounds, the current several KE rounds take several seconds of flight time to reach their target at say 4-5 km, (that's world record distances... realistically more like 2-3km). With smooth bore discarding sabot KE rounds, u achieve higher velocity but the fin-stablisied nature of the rounds make them susceptible to cross-winds, wind shear.

That's why the Challengers hold the supposed world record, they are rifled barrels. Yet, the somewhat lower velocity of the rounds (barrel friction & therefore wear & tear) mean that if the target moves/stops/changes direction unexpectedly, the FCS' firing solution cannot do anything once the KE round has left the barrel. The kind of hits reported at 4-5 km are outliers that people should not expect to be repeated with regularity. The target would need to be completely stationary or moving at a constant speed in a straight line in completely uniform atmospheric conditions and no wind.

"To expound:

All MBT guns have roughly the same range, whether smoothbore or rifled, Discarding SABOT-KE, HEAT, HESH, HE. Variables are tank barrel friction, propellant charge (limitation of metallurgical properties of barrel) and aerodynamics/ballistic characteristics.

For that reason, KE fired from smoothbore has a slight edge. If that is clear now, revisit my own quote… KE rounds are less accurate because the fins magnify wind shear effects. That’s why the Challi’s rifled rounds have the range record. Not because the KE rounds from smoothbore guns cannot travel as far… but cos we are talking about the record distance for a HIT!

Armour technology IS NOT the sole limitation of the maximum range of KE rounds. The discarding sabot KE rounds design has not change for the past couple of decades. Its slim and ultra dense design is such that air resistance will not attenuate its effectiveness. Its being able to ensure a proper hit in the first place before you even begin to talk about lethality.

Which brings us to …

I think you give it too much hype inregards to this world record set by a Challenger tank, there is no performance enhancements using rifled guns over smoothebore. My gunner popped a BMP at 3200 meters using a heat round, it all depends on the atmospheric counditions and the line of sight, and yes this projectile took around 3 seconds to hit it`s target.

Modern tank fire control systems will automatically comphensate for cross wind and other atmosphere conditions by way of a ballistic computer, a M1A2 ballistic computer can comphensate for 45MPH cross winds.

I think you now ought to understand the issue of range effectiveness. The reason the HEAT round achieved 3200m only & will never achieve the maximum kill distance record of a Challi’s KE round is as mentioned – it does not have the latter’s ballistic characteristics (not as aerodynamically streamlined, length to cross-section ratio/side side profile)

I think you give too much hype to current FCS. I’ve said so many times, no matter how good the FCS is, once the round leaves the barrel, anything can happen to during the next 3-4 seconds of its flight time.

Do you even know how FCS work? It compensates for static variables like atmospheric conditions like cross winds, temperature, air pressure as measured by your tanks sensors!

It cannot measure the uniformity of all these environmental conditions every inch of the air from your muzzle to the target! That is it’s biggest flaw. Do you run a hamster from your tank to the target & back to measure the atmospheric conditions each part of the way before recalculating fire solution? No, FCS works on best available data at source and then extrapolating. Do you not realize that atmospheric conditions 4 km away such as wind, wind shear, turbulence caused by vegetation/undulating ground/sand storms are way beyond your FCS calculation?


Yet, static variables which also include barrel temperature, wear/tear, projectile characteristcs/type are merely ancillary & the easy bit. Its the dynamic variables like your own vehicles speed/direction vs the target positions speed/direction that truly matter! The FCS can measure and extrapolate/predict where the target will be during the 3 seconds of flight time for instance – PROVIDED it remains stationary or proceeds at the exact same constant speed & direction.

The slightest change of the dynamic variables result in a miss. The classic example would be the firing tank hitting a bump that is beyond the gun stablizers compensating parameters. Or the target maintaining speed & direction – BUT hitting a bump or up/down a gentle slope! The FCS cannot measure that! It’s the same reason that the straight line distance indicated by a map is never the same when you actually cover it on foot!

The complexity of solving this would require a real-time GPS system cum radar in low orbit that can track and measure the actual straight line distance covered by the target! Far easier to fit smart guidance systems to your projectile!

Every seems to comment on the Challi hit distance record I mentioned without realizing this – there is no mention of how many shots were taken to achieve that hit, nor the speed of travel of firing/target vehicles. Perhaps it took 10 shots to achieve that hit? All soldiers want to brag about their kills, not necessarily how its done if not overly flattering.

As I’ve said, at such extremes of distance, the flight time would mean that the target & atmospheric conditions would have to be extremely static. Such hits therefore can occur only with a fair amount of luck and prayer.

That is the limitation of unguided rounds. Sorry to burst your KE round bubble."

 

[eckherl]

Do you honestly think that precision guided munitions require your tank to maintain constant lock?

I shouldn't need to explain how guidance systems work, there are so many on the market! As I mentioned & sigh have to repeat... lasers can be illuminated by numerous other sources (forward observers, RAV drones, high altitude cruising support aircraft, other stationary vehicles with a better line of sight... humvees, recon bikes, buggies).

TV image / IR / mm radar seeker heads for fire & forget... it just depends on the situation need + the appetite for budget.




Ironically you were the one who insisted that armour doesn't need to …“charge at defensive position at full speed and engaging targets at 8km …”.

I’ll point out the other dumb way to die – when your favourite KE round (plus other direct fire weapons), essentially your main gun - is ineffective against another MBT staring at you from a hull down position.

No such thing as a stand off range? You're arguments are sounding more flawed by the post. Do you live in the era of the bayonet charge? Or is that the cavalry charge.

The cardinal rule is always - Engage the enemy as soon as you can, as soon as you can - at maximum range. Better still if they cannot reach you.

Wait, eckherl, u shldn't be making me repeat the boxing example.

Hmm - I guess it matters on how you use the term stand off range. I normaly do not make a point to argue with anybody on this forum and from the most part I tend to get along with most people and feel that I do not need to argue with them, and I can accept it when I am wrong, from my experience and from some of the experience levels of some of the other defence talkers inregards to this thread I can clearly see that you have some major flaws in your thinking and conception of modern warfare, but that is okay you are intitled to your opinion even if you are wrong. For the sake of you wanting to make this into a argument I will bow out of this conversation with you.

 

[Letli]

Exactly.
Rifled barrels offer an advantage when using HESH rounds (The rotating of the round is just good for the HE effect of the warhead) but not when using APFSDS rounds.

There is no truth to the fact that rifled barrels are not good for APFSDS.
The smoothbore does give a somewhat higher muzzle velocity for obvious reasons and therefore greater range, higher projectile energy. But range & lethality is meaningless if windage works on the fins screwing the accuracy.

Rifled rounds are less prone to windage etc.

As to your last post.
But you need the rough position of the enemy tank. How do you do this with a x12 optic? As I said before it is harder as one might think to find a tank in a defenseive position not to talk of finding it at 8km.

So how do other smart munitions' guidance systems work? Therein u have the answer.

 

[eckherl]

Chrom, you're totally wrong here. U've misinterpreted many thing. Its not the barrels per se... its the aerodynamics imparted by the barrel. Its a question of fins versus spin. You need to know the differences between smoothbore & rifled ballistics.

The accuracy is a matter of the windage etc. But far easier for me to now just quote...



"To expound:

All MBT guns have roughly the same range, whether smoothbore or rifled, Discarding SABOT-KE, HEAT, HESH, HE. Variables are tank barrel friction, propellant charge (limitation of metallurgical properties of barrel) and aerodynamics/ballistic characteristics.

For that reason, KE fired from smoothbore has a slight edge. If that is clear now, revisit my own quote… KE rounds are less accurate because the fins magnify wind shear effects. That’s why the Challi’s rifled rounds have the range record. Not because the KE rounds from smoothbore guns cannot travel as far… but cos we are talking about the record distance for a HIT!

Armour technology IS NOT the sole limitation of the maximum range of KE rounds. The discarding sabot KE rounds design has not change for the past couple of decades. Its slim and ultra dense design is such that air resistance will not attenuate its effectiveness. Its being able to ensure a proper hit in the first place before you even begin to talk about lethality.

Which brings us to …




I think you now ought to understand the issue of range effectiveness. The reason the HEAT round achieved 3200m only & will never achieve the maximum kill distance record of a Challi’s KE round is as mentioned – it does not have the latter’s ballistic characteristics (not as aerodynamically streamlined, length to cross-section ratio/side side profile)

I think you give too much hype to current FCS. I’ve said so many times, no matter how good the FCS is, once the round leaves the barrel, anything can happen to during the next 3-4 seconds of its flight time.

Do you even know how FCS work? It compensates for static variables like atmospheric conditions like cross winds, temperature, air pressure as measured by your tanks sensors!

It cannot measure the uniformity of all these environmental conditions every inch of the air from your muzzle to the target! That is it’s biggest flaw. Do you run a hamster from your tank to the target & back to measure the atmospheric conditions each part of the way before recalculating fire solution? No, FCS works on best available data at source and then extrapolating. Do you not realize that atmospheric conditions 4 km away such as wind, wind shear, turbulence caused by vegetation/undulating ground/sand storms are way beyond your FCS calculation?


Yet, static variables which also include barrel temperature, wear/tear, projectile characteristcs/type are merely ancillary & the easy bit. Its the dynamic variables like your own vehicles speed/direction vs the target positions speed/direction that truly matter! The FCS can measure and extrapolate/predict where the target will be during the 3 seconds of flight time for instance – PROVIDED it remains stationary or proceeds at the exact same constant speed & direction.

The slightest change of the dynamic variables result in a miss. The classic example would be the firing tank hitting a bump that is beyond the gun stablizers compensating parameters. Or the target maintaining speed & direction – BUT hitting a bump or up/down a gentle slope! The FCS cannot measure that! It’s the same reason that the straight line distance indicated by a map is never the same when you actually cover it on foot!

The complexity of solving this would require a real-time GPS system cum radar in low orbit that can track and measure the actual straight line distance covered by the target! Far easier to fit smart guidance systems to your projectile!

Every seems to comment on the Challi hit distance record I mentioned without realizing this – there is no mention of how many shots were taken to achieve that hit, nor the speed of travel of firing/target vehicles. Perhaps it took 10 shots to achieve that hit? All soldiers want to brag about their kills, not necessarily how its done if not overly flattering.

As I’ve said, at such extremes of distance, the flight time would mean that the target & atmospheric conditions would have to be extremely static. Such hits therefore can occur only with a fair amount of luck and prayer.

That is the limitation of unguided rounds. Sorry to burst your KE round bubble."

nfloorl: After many years as a Master Gunner in the U.S Army I find this quite amusing, and yes I have a full understanding on how a FCS gets a ballistic solution for each type of round fired.

 

[Waylander]

So mayn things, I hope I get all of them...

Silly? That would be trying to say one weapon system is superior to another.
Silly is trying to compare apples to oranges. Silly is trying to bring in more variables than you can handle.

Comparing 1 MBT to another is a basic rule in cutting down the number of variables for a meaningful analysis, saying the SPH will kill MBTs first or vice-versa is plain naive.

Bottom line, the XK2 is able to hit any comparable tank target first before they can - RANGE wise.

Bottom line 2, it can do so even if range is not the issue - INDIRECT fire (i.e. high trajectory) wise.

N.B. Note that the reason it has a purported 8km range isn't because its a Wunderwaffe or Luffwaffe miracle gun. Its purely the same old technology gun but fired at a high trajectory. KE rounds can reach that far too! But it'll not be able to hit anything without guidance
Which is something I'll regrettably have to repeat to eckherl as well.

You guys should give credit where its due. Or ponder the implications for tank combat.

No, tank on tank comparisons are usefull when talking about target auqisition capabailities, off road speed, armor protection, etc.

But not when talking about operational issues and when we talk about using this ammo can we for sure not insist on an MBT vs MBT battlespace.

U're still bleating about using the XK2 like an SPH & then saying it will be crap? Is that ur idea of MBT armoured tactics?

The point is made & now trite. The XK2 fires KE rounds like any other but when KE rounds aren't appropriate, & many situations simply are such, it can circumvent that with smart rounds - indirect fire style.

You need to accept that this is what the XK2 is designed to do - not as a SPH.


And modern SPHs ARE fast enough to get away from their fire position before the enemy is coming close. A PzH2000 for example is fire ready in 30 sec than shoots 3 times in 10 sec and is away in max another min. All this without the battery being close together but scattered alot to make counterfire more difficult

You made your arguments about hitting enemy formations in 8km distance. This is artillery fire. You call for enemy counterfire when shooting this far like every other of your own artillery strikes. And you are for sure not able to the nice shoot and scoot tactics with this tank like with a SPH.

Grasp the point - the XK2 does not REQUIRE any other weapon system to aid it in taking out enemy positions in defilade position. In armoured warfare, where deep thrusts behind enemy lines can leave you isolated (even if for a brief time, save for air support - dun go there again!), that is critical. An MBT goner.

And you really believe that you get your fire solution against enemy tanks at big ranges which are in camouflaged defense positions while you are running wild with 60 km/h on a deep strike?

The cardinal rule is always - Engage the enemy as soon as you can, as soon as you can - at maximum range. Better still if they cannot reach you.

You should remind another rule. What you can't see you can't hit. Just ask some of the people here with some experience in armored warfare how often you get to see an enemy AFV in normal terrain at really big ranges or even at ranges which would be at the limit of KEs.

Like I said, stupid is trying to judge how good a tank is against artillery, or the high-powered laser in low orbit.

This is a new tank, stay on track by comparing it against other tanks. Stay on track by thinking how it changes/revolutionizes tank warfare.

Its always the case that people try to bring in all sorts of convulating variables when they cannot offer any meaningful analysis of the issue at hand. How effective the KV2 is, measured against others in its class.

Or should we start comparing how the KV2 will function against the Imperial Star Destroyer or wait ... wait... Darth Maul's light sabre!

No, we should discuss how doable all of your ideas really are in a real environment...

For that reason, KE fired from smoothbore has a slight edge. If that is clear now, revisit my own quote… KE rounds are less accurate because the fins magnify wind shear effects. That’s why the Challi’s rifled rounds have the range record. Not because the KE rounds from smoothbore guns cannot travel as far… but cos we are talking about the record distance for a HIT!

You are aware of the fact that KEs fired from rifled guns are specially made because they don't rotate, are you?
There is a reason why you don't want your KE to rotate. Penetration is much better without being less accurate.
Just look at some CAT results or ask some tankmen who worked together with the Army of the Rhine like I did.

--------

In the end I have the same feeling like eckherl. You don't even try to follow our arguments.

- You are giving away your position with such indirect fire missions. And you are not as good at avoiding enemy counterfire like a modern SPH.

- You normally are lucky if you get to see an enemy tank within 2000m-1000m when advancing in normal vegetation and terrain. Were do you get your accurate informations about enemy positions from?

- This is not like SMArt ammo or bomblet/canister fired by arty high above enemy formations.

- You think you can coordinate every single round with a forward observer of any kind (recon infantry, UAVs, etc.)? Have you even an idea how hard it is to coordinate even the normal fire of your platoon during an engagement?

- If I got killed by "enemy" Leos often enough within some hundred meters because I just didn't see while we advanced than I don't get how you are going to kill the same enemy tanks at extreme ranges.

My sentences about patience exist because you insist us on not having a loose idea of how tanks work again and again. And this is just plain wrong.

Oooh I normally hate the "been there done that" argument...

 

[Chrom]

All MBT guns have roughly the same range, whether smoothbore or rifled, Discarding SABOT-KE, HEAT, HESH, HE. Variables are tank barrel friction, propellant charge (limitation of metallurgical properties of barrel) and aerodynamics/ballistic characteristics.

For that reason, KE fired from smoothbore has a slight edge. If that is clear now, revisit my own quote… KE rounds are less accurate because the fins magnify wind shear effects. That’s why the Challi’s rifled rounds have the range record. Not because the KE rounds from smoothbore guns cannot travel as far… but cos we are talking about the record distance for a HIT!

FYI, Challi's rifled APFSDS round is EXACTLY like any other APFSDS round - i.e. sabot with FINS!! As such, it DID NOT ROTATE! Moreover, due to complication firing NON-rotated round from RIFLED gun APFSDS fired from rifled gun tends to be slightly less accurate than same technology level APFSDS fired from smoothbore gun.

I think you now ought to understand the issue of range effectiveness. The reason the HEAT round achieved 3200m only & will never achieve the maximum kill distance record of a Challi’s KE round is as mentioned – it does not have the latter’s ballistic characteristics (not as aerodynamically streamlined, length to cross-section ratio/side side profile)

Sadly, HEAT rounds is the only area where rifled gun give some advantage compared to smoothbore guns.

Every seems to comment on the Challi hit distance record I mentioned without realizing this – there is no mention of how many shots were taken to achieve that hit, nor the speed of travel of firing/target vehicles. Perhaps it took 10 shots to achieve that hit? All soldiers want to brag about their kills, not necessarily how its done if not overly flattering.

As I’ve said, at such extremes of distance, the flight time would mean that the target & atmospheric conditions would have to be extremely static. Such hits therefore can occur only with a fair amount of luck and prayer.

That is the limitation of unguided rounds. Sorry to burst your KE round bubble."

This is true, and i think guded KE rounds IF made properly is the near future of tank guns.

 

[eckherl]

FYI, Challi's rifled APFSDS round is EXACTLY like any other APFSDS round - i.e. sabot with FINS!! As such, it DID NOT ROTATE! Moreover, due to complication firing NON-rotated round from RIFLED gun APFSDS fired from rifled gun tends to be slightly less accurate than same technology level APFSDS fired from smoothbore gun.


Sadly, HEAT rounds is the only area where rifled gun give some advantage compared to smoothbore guns.



This is true, and i think guded KE rounds IF made properly is the near future of tank guns.

Why do rifled main guns have a advantage firing HEAT ammunition over smoothbore. And are you stating that a smoothbore gun doesn`t give any type of projectile rotation when fired.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Letli, you do understand that Eckherl is Master Gunner qualified?

 

[Chrom]

Why do rifled main guns have a advantage firing HEAT ammunition over smoothbore. And are you stating that a smoothbore gun doesn`t give any type of projectile rotation when fired.

Due to rotation. Rifled gun can much better spin HEAT projectile.
P.S. Allthought modern HEAT rounds dont spin.
P.P.S. I initialy meant HE rounds, dont know why i got distracted by HEAT. Probably becouse NATO tanks dont use HE rounds...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Why do rifled main guns have a advantage firing HEAT ammunition over smoothbore. And are you stating that a smoothbore gun doesn`t give any type of projectile rotation when firedd

Due to rotation. Rifled gun can much better spin HEAT projectile.
P.S. Allthought modern HEAT rounds dont spin.
P.P.S. I initialy meant HE rounds, dont know why i got distracted by HEAT. Probably becouse NATO tanks dont use HE rounds...

Chrom, we know you know why rifled guns have the advantage firing HEAT over smoothbore, but I think it was a rhetorical question intended for Letli.

 

[Waylander]

Some NATO countries do use HEs.
Germany and Sweden have their own HEs and the Brits have their HESH (Were the rifled gun has its advantages).
As long as I know the Canucks also buy our HEs together with leasing our Leo IIA6M for A-stan. I am not sure about other Leo users buying HEs from Sweden or Germany.

 

[eckherl]

@Waylander

Due to the extended length of the L55 over the L44, has the LEO2 A5/A6 experienced more boresight loss due to thermal bending. And yes I know that the MRS will comphensate for some it. Which brings me to my next question, is the gunner having to reference the MRS to the gun at a more frequent rate over the L44 during live firing.