Should Pakistan Export Agostas ?
- Thread starter Oqaab
- Start date
Roger Smith
New Member
OqaabOqaab said:Pakistan has the export lisence for ur kind information.
Thanks for the aforementioned information.
Do you have a link, where France has permitted Pakistan to re-export Agosta submarine to Asian and Middle East countries?
Do Pakistan has the infrastructure to service after sale and provide spare parts for engine on Agosta submarine?
Malaysia is setting their submarine base is Sabah, East Malaysia and are negotiating with France or Russia to buy submarines.
[Admin Edit: Stick to the topic. Tank related issues in land forces forum not in Naval!]
I have noticed Pakistan's policy, it like to run before it can even walk. :?
Peace.
Mr Smith you have to understand that not all things/pieces of information that we post here have a link or source on the net.
You just have to take our word on this.Ask any top official in Pakistan's armed forces and u'll come to know that this export thing is the truth.
We have the infrastucture to provide after sale service and can export these subs.
Oh plus if u want to know what EXCLUSIVE EXPORT RIGHTS means,go study the contract between Boeing/Vertol and Kawasaki regarding the manufacture of the Verto model 104(?) SeaHorse,the predecessor of the Chinook
You just have to take our word on this.Ask any top official in Pakistan's armed forces and u'll come to know that this export thing is the truth.
We have the infrastucture to provide after sale service and can export these subs.
Oh plus if u want to know what EXCLUSIVE EXPORT RIGHTS means,go study the contract between Boeing/Vertol and Kawasaki regarding the manufacture of the Verto model 104(?) SeaHorse,the predecessor of the Chinook
Firstly on the issue of Agostas for the PN... the higher ups would like 3 more vessels but unfortunately there is no funding... why they cant invest $100 mil per year to keep the project going and truly capitalise upon their initial investment of $1 billion is anyones guess. IMHO I think that thePN is likely to require 10-12 Agosta 90bs for the PN to be able to launch any meaningful offensive. So it looks like we'll be getting only 3 -90Bs and the Agosta 70s will serving on for yrs to come Interestingly enough the PN Chief did mention that the PNcoul cater for the second dtrike option and tat an initial capital investment of $1 billion would be required..... I wonder if he was thinking of doing to the Agosta 90bs what the Israelis did with their subs?
As for the RMN I do remeber reading that they are more interested in the Scorpene.
Have heard rumours about the RSN being interested in the -90s but time will tell whether it will transpire into an actual sale. On the up side the new joint industrial defence initiative launched by KSA, Pak and Egypt may see a market for the -90s.
Interestingly enough the PN Chief did mention that the PNcoul cater for the second dtrike option and tat an initial capital investment of $1 billion would be required..... I wonder if he was thinking of doing to the Agosta 90bs what the Israelis did with their subs? As for the RMN I do remeber reading that they are more interested in the Scorpene.
Have heard rumours about the RSN being interested in the -90s but time will tell whether it will transpire into an actual sale. On the up side the new joint industrial defence initiative launched by KSA, Pak and Egypt may see a market for the -90s.
Interesting comments by some of you. There is a stark difference between a luxury liner and a SSK. The yards that built the cruise liners are highly specialized in modular construction, and have the resources and manpower to execute and deliver. PN has had a quantum leap in vessel construction in this ToT project with DCN. Would France block the sales? Why would they? The major parts would still be fabricated by the French, and merely assembled in at Dockyard. What a customer saves is the man-power cost of Europe, which is herrendous. Where else in the world you have a month long vacation for everyone?
Some of you speculate that PN should have X number of subs, but may i remind you that PN might opt for a smaller force that is functional, rather than a bigger force docked at Abdoze. The combination of Daphnes, 70s, and 90 Bravos is a formidable force for EEZ defence. Strike is not part of PN's paradigm, with a few exceptions. Sometimes, it only takes a Midget and a few chariots to hole up a harbour.
So the bottom line maybe is that we can export these items, "Second Hand Technology." as one of you refers, is almost comical. Stand in the OPS room of Khalid infront of Subtics and you will realize what hand tech. they really are. I speculate that it would be quite a while that even PN operators master the true potential of the 90 Brave platform. As Agosta operators, it would not take too much time.
Some of you speculate that PN should have X number of subs, but may i remind you that PN might opt for a smaller force that is functional, rather than a bigger force docked at Abdoze. The combination of Daphnes, 70s, and 90 Bravos is a formidable force for EEZ defence. Strike is not part of PN's paradigm, with a few exceptions. Sometimes, it only takes a Midget and a few chariots to hole up a harbour.
So the bottom line maybe is that we can export these items, "Second Hand Technology." as one of you refers, is almost comical. Stand in the OPS room of Khalid infront of Subtics and you will realize what hand tech. they really are. I speculate that it would be quite a while that even PN operators master the true potential of the 90 Brave platform. As Agosta operators, it would not take too much time.
When you add up all the public holidays in Australia etc then the typical "non work" period in Aust is about 6 weeks. Pity I haven't had a decent holiday in 6 years. They either get shortened or cancelled!
I need to work in another country for while, maybe I can pretend I'm having a holiday then if it looks different.
darklegent
New Member
My God! :eek Look at this angle of thought.......THE FRENCH SELL THE AGOSTA TO PAKISTAN AND THEN SELL SCORPIONS TO INDIA. These French are makin their own markets at the expence to third world country economies. :mad
Yes the French must be plently pleased with that situation. No joy for the germans though. However, no worries, I am sure the two opposing navies know what they are doing. Of course the PN will be greatly out numbered by the IN in terms of platforms. Moreover, the indians want to build there own SSN's.darklegent said:
Dr Phobus said:Yes the French must be plently pleased with that situation. No joy for the germans though. However, no worries, I am sure the two opposing navies know what they are doing. Of course the PN will be greatly out numbered by the IN in terms of platforms. Moreover, the indians want to build there own SSN's.
We've discussed this issue before. Personally looking at it from an operations perspective i'd say it's difficult to say who would have the upper hand, two things that are important here apart from the Basic Upto date platform issue is Training and Management.
If IN can Improve or maintain International training standards with there new platforms then i'd say IN would crack PN. Same goes for PN.PN is comparatively smaller. Traditionally when your smaller you can be allot more manageable. I'm not saying IN isn't manageable but every Organization has Management Issues, Logistic problems etc. its these Issues that degrade overall delivery performance. Managing Military Organization is not for the faint hearted.
I see other issues as tactical issues that can be worked out either by Upgrades or Improvements.
urm correct me if i am worng but malaysia baught 2 scorpene submarine from france and 1 agosta for training but that agosta was also from france and it was secondhand... that agosta is for training only p.s i doubt malaysia will be buying any more subs for a while 6yrs i think cause they need to learn to use the 3 first... i never understand why every pakistani thread that got to do with selling goods tend to involve malaysia
Pakistan may be sitting still but they are very quietly pursuing other options for their submarine needs. How about 3 to 5 German U-214? You may be reading about them quite soon.
Now some of us may not agree but that will not change the facts. There are few surprises up in PN sleeves like this one.
Now some of us may not agree but that will not change the facts. There are few surprises up in PN sleeves like this one.
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yeah agosta is for training only.i dont think that malaysia wuld buy agosta
for at least 5 years.with buying scorpene we had use a lot of money.
i know with 2 scorpene its not enough when looking at wide sea area to be patroled we need more sub but we need to focus on other priority.
budget is not allowed malaysia to buy more sub
for at least 5 years.with buying scorpene we had use a lot of money.
i know with 2 scorpene its not enough when looking at wide sea area to be patroled we need more sub but we need to focus on other priority.
budget is not allowed malaysia to buy more sub
As Pakistan is retiring all the four Daphne class submarines, it will require new ones. German submarines have been picked to replace the old Daphne and will have the capability to use "Babae" cruise missile. There may be additional 3 agosta-90B with at least 4 German U-214 that will be acquired.
hovercraft
New Member
why not pakistan is showing interest in chinease subs?
The modified Agosta 90 is better than anything coming out of China.hovercraft said:
Chinese Kilos and Songs have been picked up quite easily when they've tried to sneak up on the RIMPAC exercises. The Indian Navy regularly sniffs them out in the Andomans.
They're nicknamed "kelvinators" by some people in the trade.
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dabrownguy
New Member
Even the Chinese Kilos? I thought those were quiter. GF i have a question. Were the Kilos built during Soviet times better than the ones built now? In quality?
Generally for Kilos it's rated as such:dabrownguy said:
Russian Post Toshiba
Chinese modified (French Sonar and Combat Systems)
Russian Export Chinese
Russian export other
Russian pre Toshiba
Soviet
do you have the noise level on the Agosta 90B?gf0012-aust said:
So, which categories are you saying that Agosta 90B is better than 636M? Club missile and the club torpedoes are certainly better than anything equipping Agosta 90B. Also, 636M is equpped with SAM, what about Agosta 90B?
"Chinese Kilos and Songs have been picked up quite easily when they've tried to sneak up on the RIMPAC exercises. The Indian Navy regularly sniffs them out in the Andomans.
"
Do you have any proof for this?
And that is not even counting Yuan.
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in general terms re the Modified Agosta 90, yes. my principle job is acoustic warfare. as such I know the data for all the subs in this region - and no, I'm not going to publicly throw numbers on the table.tphuang said:
At a sig management level the Agosta90 is miles ahead of the export kilos. get in close and you have a better chance of killing - get in close and the reaction time for defences is reduced - and usually in orders of magnitude.tphuang said:
Yes, By numerous ASW participants in RIMPAC 2002 - 2004. It's been a topic of discussion at a number of conferences I've attended recently. Thats where the "kelvinator" nickname originated from - sailors in DF-31 (the principle USN ASW Squadron)tphuang said:
Also the fact that the Indian Navy has been tagged by a pair of Kilos in the Andomans Nicobars for the last 12 months. Unfort one was damaged during last years Tsunami - so that effectvely leave s one PLAN sub with historical awareness of the region.
A suggestion. If the US/RN/RAN were able to tag russian subs traversing from Vladivistok, if the Sth Koreans, Taiwanese and Japanese were able to pick up the "Guam" stalker from the moment it left port as it did it's pacific tour last year - what chance do you think a Yuan has (with a noisier footprint)tphuang said:
Some things don't need to be spelled out.
A slight rider to my comments (and don't take this in the wrong way as it's a statement of observation and not directed at you)
Whether you choose to believe me is inconsequential. But responses for any post should be judged on the quality and calibre of information given over time by a poster. There are some posters who are prone to talk up numbers and data due to issues of national pride - and the quality of response is therefore adversely effected and accepted. At the end of the day we are all judged on consistency, calibre, quality, reliability, demonstrated knowledge and depth of expertise. Not everyone will always believe you or I - and thats fine as I don't proffer responses to seek converts to my views, assessment, analysis etc...