Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

SolarWind

Active Member
Hasn't Klimov recently criticized the Pantsir-M for being unable to defend 22800's in bad weather due to limitations of mm radars? There are apparently though differing opinions on whether the Pantsirs have only mm radars or also have cm radar capability. Regarding 20380's and 20385's, even with all the Paket limitations, they each can still carry a mix of 8 torpedoes. And the 20385's have Kalibr VLS, are they not capable of carrying and operating the Kalibr anti-sub missiles? About retrofitting early versions of 20380's, it may simply be more expedient to just build more, including the 20385 variant.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hasn't Klimov recently criticized the Pantsir-M for being unable to defend 22800's in bad weather due to limitations of mm radars? There are apparently though differing opinions on whether the Pantsirs have only mm radars or also have cm radar capability. Regarding 20380's and 20385's, even with all the Paket limitations, they each can still carry a mix of 8 torpedoes. And the 20385's have Kalibr VLS, are they not capable of carrying and operating the Kalibr anti-sub missiles? About retrofitting early versions of 20380's, it may simply be more expedient to just build more, including the 20385 variant.
I have my own doubts regarding Klimov's criticism of the Pantsyr system. But I'm going to reserve judgement until we see the navalized Pantsyr in widespread service. Regarding the 20380s, remember even out of the 22 currently contracted only 4 are 20385s. They can carry the 91R but at the expense of sacrificing anti-ship capabilities. Paket is still good (certainly better then the "nothing" that most Russian surface combatants have for anti-torpedoes), but the point is that it could easily have been made better. They still can be.

As for not refitting the early version... I have a hard time believing that. At the very least the Stereguschiy should get a Pantsyr in place of it's extremely limited Kashtan. Realistically they all need a radar replacement or upgrade to be viable. Remember, they make up 8 out of the 22 currently planned ships, and 7 out of the 8 already built vessels. Remember, also, that the VMF has very few major surface combatants, and out of those even fewer still have serious combat value. Un-upgraded 1155s for example are nicknamed "doves of peace" because their SAM is only a navalized Tor, their AShM is the Rastrub, the only area where they are somewhat relevant is the anti-submarine aspect but even there the technology is dated at best. With the 956s slowly being retired, and only a small number of modern frigates, the 20380s have to play a major role. Remember in the past 20 years Russia has built 5 frigates, and 8 corvettes. That's it for major surface combatants. With that in mind, having 7 of these ships with a major deficiency in air defense, and 3 (the 11356s) with a major anti-submarine deficiency, creates a major problem.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
It would make a lot of sense to change the masts and install the new radars on early version 20380's, with various other upgrades. It seems, however, that modernization is currently done on older ships with repairable engines, whereas new ships are being built only as fast as their new engines can be manufactured.

I recently read much talk about plans to send some of the new 20380's to the Black Sea Fleet to be operated alongside 11356's and 22800's. Makes sense with the 20380's being the best ASuW option after the 22350's, who are tied up in the north, 11356 being able to do some group air defense, and 22800 basically acting like a micro arsenal ship with point air defense. Seems like a hack, but their options are limited, especially with the Mediterranean being such a flash point.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It would make a lot of sense to change the masts and install the new radars on early version 20380's, with various other upgrades. It seems, however, that modernization is currently done on older ships with repairable engines, whereas new ships are being built only as fast as their new engines can be manufactured.

I recently read much talk about plans to send some of the new 20380's to the Black Sea Fleet to be operated alongside 11356's and 22800's. Makes sense with the 20380's being the best ASuW option after the 22350's, who are tied up in the north, 11356 being able to do some group air defense, and 22800 basically acting like a micro arsenal ship with point air defense. Seems like a hack, but their options are limited, especially with the Mediterranean being such a flash point.
One of the 22350s is slated for the Black Sea as well as the Retiviy 20380 (it should be the next one coming out of Severnaya). In my opinion the Black Sea Fleet needs a full brigade of 6 corvettes (and 6 small missile ships) at least, to replace it's aging Soviet small missile boats and small anti-submarine boats.
 

wsb05

Member
One of the 22350s is slated for the Black Sea as well as the Retiviy 20380 (it should be the next one coming out of Severnaya). In my opinion the Black Sea Fleet needs a full brigade of 6 corvettes (and 6 small missile ships) at least, to replace it's aging Soviet small missile boats and small anti-submarine boats.
The black sea fleet is going to see a lot of action given it will include the Mediterranean flotilla. It may need more.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Updates.

A new Kh-35 coastal variant called (confusingly enough Rubezh, like the ICBM) is nearing completion carrying 4 missiles on a Kamaz chassis instead of 8 missiles on the larger MZKT chassis. It seems to be mainly aimed at export customers.


The 9th 21631 small missile ship has begun sea trials. A total of 12 have been ordered. It appears to be destined for the Black Sea Fleet.


The official contract has been signed for the design of a new naval helo, the Minoga. There are reports that work had started before this. This contract is for the OKR so it would make sense a NIR preceded it.


The third 20380 for the Pacific is also at trials, the Pacific Fleet badly needs more of these.


The 5th 12700 mine trawler has been launched, it's planned for hold over in 2021.


A new ship-repair center appears to be opening in Tartus, turning it into a real base.


The Gorshkov has performed a Tsirkon launch. The launch was publicized unlike previous launches of the system, and struck a target ~450kms away.

 

SolarWind

Active Member
One of the 22350s is slated for the Black Sea as well as the Retiviy 20380 (it should be the next one coming out of Severnaya). In my opinion the Black Sea Fleet needs a full brigade of 6 corvettes (and 6 small missile ships) at least, to replace it's aging Soviet small missile boats and small anti-submarine boats.
The idea of 6 new 20380 corvettes and 6 new 22800 small missile ships for the BSF looks good, and is likely on the VMF wish list. The problem is, however, that Russian shipbuilding is so slow that the VMF needs and the entire maritime doctrine could change before they build that many. This is what happened with 22350s, the OKRs took so long that by the time they finished, the VMF decided they need a bigger ship, the 22350M. At this point, the 20380, 20385, 22800, and 22350 is all they can and reasonably should build in the corvette-frigate class in the near time frame. The bottleneck is still engines and gearboxes, for the most part, and the building speed is far from fast enough to build brigades of these ships in reasonable time frames.
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
Some interesting articles on Russia's naval doctrine and the state of its Navy.

These suggest that corruption in shipbuilding and limited naval budget are the realities that may hamper Russia from accomplishing its stated naval doctrine and goals.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The idea of 6 new 20380 corvettes and 6 new 22800 small missile ships for the BSF looks good, and is likely on the VMF wish list. The problem is, however, that Russian shipbuilding is so slow that the VMF needs and the entire maritime doctrine could change before they build that many. This is what happened with 22350s, the OKRs took so long that by the time they finished, the VMF decided they need a bigger ship, the 22350M. At this point, the 20380, 20385, 22800, and 22350 is all they can and reasonably should build in the corvette-frigate class in the near time frame. The bottleneck is still engines and gearboxes, for the most part, and the building speed is far from fast enough to build brigades of these ships in reasonable time frames.
In recent years they've been able to put out 2 20380s per year. I don't think 3 years is enough time for the entire doctrine to shift. But even if they're down to 1 per year, 6 years is still not that long. That having been said, I'm not sure how exactly they plan to deploy their 22 contracted 20380s. The Pacific Fleet could realistically use 12, with 6 around Vladivostok and the south Kurils, while the other 6 would cover Kamchatka area. This could leave 4 in the Baltic and 3 each in the Northern and Black Sea fleets.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
The 20380/20385 corvettes/frigates in particular, unlike most of the other types, have had relatively few problems with import substitutions, as most or all of their critical components were originally domestically sourced over a decade ago, although with some exception in the case of 20385, which ended up having to use engines from 20380 and has decreased characteristics as a result of that. Moreover, they are being built at two independent plants at the same time. I would expect this type to have much fewer problems than the other types to being built in large numbers, the more recent variants also receiving upgrades in the form of AESA radars that should solve the AA problems that plague the early versions. We will see how this goes forward.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
Breaking News!
Finally, 100% domestic engines for frigate 22350, including the gearboxes and the gas turbines have successfully completed tests and are going into serial production for the in-construction 22350's. The last barrier to speedy production of 22350's has been removed.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
No videos yet, just some photos. The delivery of the Volkhov, second of 6 ordered for the Pacific Fleet.

On the right side we see a ship under construction. Which ship is this? Look like some kind of double hangar.
 

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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Built in the '80s, but still very active. Two of these ships are just spotted close the the British coast
Navelnews talks about Project 684, but i think its a typing-error, if im not wrong these are Project 864 ships.
According to the article, ships of this class also operate sometimes close to the american coast and in the Caribian. Weird actually that the Russian navy doesnt use the larger Project 18280 or 1826 for such long range operations.

The Project 1559V large replenishment oilers are built in the '70s, are there any plans for new large oilers?
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Some interesting articles on Russia's naval doctrine and the state of its Navy.

These suggest that corruption in shipbuilding and limited naval budget are the realities that may hamper Russia from accomplishing its stated naval doctrine and goals.
IMO the problem with shipbuilding is the consolidation of most of the yards into USC. It hasn't worked.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
No videos yet, just some photos. The delivery of the Volkhov, second of 6 ordered for the Pacific Fleet.

On the right side we see a ship under construction. Which ship is this? Look like some kind of double hangar.
Project 23350 Arctic patrol vessels.

1604991476332.png
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Whoops that's a typo, these are pretty much the same size as the Canadian AOPS vessels but with a lot heavier armament.
I'll say one thing about Russian naval ship designs, they generally know how to build nice looking ships and were very fond of the clipper bows for a long time with the lines flowing back along the hull. Things of beauty built for any ugly purpose.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Armament on the RCN’s AOPS is an embarrassment.:mad:
Maybe but they aren't designed to take on a CBG, CGN,DDG or FFG are they. They are more a constabulary vessel that happens to operate in the Arctic. The RCN has a different philosophy and set of CONOPS to the VMF. Historically the Russians have always armed their ships for bear. Different culture so a different outlook, set of values, and they look at the world through a different lens to the west.
 
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