Russian Navy Discussions and Updates
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I would think this is one area where the US has a huge advantage. The USN knows precisely when the wire needs to be replaced and I would assume the arrestor wire vendor has a damn fine QA process. Combine this along with well trained and experienced aviation deckhands and this makes for an efficient aircraft recovery process with the Nimitz class carriers. The Ford class has an all-new CATOBAR system where the steam catapult has been replaced by the EMALS and a new arrestor system. Hopefully this will be even better.
I am not entirely sure that Russia will remain in the aircraft carrier business for much longer anyway.
The Kuznetsov is clearly beset with all sorts of mechanical problems. Just looking at photos of it belching smoke as it headed down the English channel suggest that it is in need of a complete overhaul ... or better yet a replacement.
I doubt that they have the facilities to build a new carrier anytime soon. Without the Ukraine shipbuilding yards Russia is going to have to upgrade its own shipyards before they are in a position to even think about replacing the Kuznetsov.
Not only that but its entire surface fleet is in need of replacement. Apart from the occasional frigate and corvette Russia has not built a major surface ship this century. I don't know where they will find the money to do all that and replace their carrier.
The Kuznetsov is clearly beset with all sorts of mechanical problems. Just looking at photos of it belching smoke as it headed down the English channel suggest that it is in need of a complete overhaul ... or better yet a replacement.
I doubt that they have the facilities to build a new carrier anytime soon. Without the Ukraine shipbuilding yards Russia is going to have to upgrade its own shipyards before they are in a position to even think about replacing the Kuznetsov.
Not only that but its entire surface fleet is in need of replacement. Apart from the occasional frigate and corvette Russia has not built a major surface ship this century. I don't know where they will find the money to do all that and replace their carrier.
I am not entirely sure that Russia will remain in the aircraft carrier business for much longer anyway.
The Kuznetsov is clearly beset with all sorts of mechanical problems. Just looking at photos of it belching smoke as it headed down the English channel suggest that it is in need of a complete overhaul ... or better yet a replacement.
I doubt that they have the facilities to build a new carrier anytime soon. Without the Ukraine shipbuilding yards Russia is going to have to upgrade its own shipyards before they are in a position to even think about replacing the Kuznetsov.
Not only that but its entire surface fleet is in need of replacement. Apart from the occasion frigate and corvette Russia has not built a major surface ship this century. I don't know where they will find the money to do all that and replace their carrier.
The Kuznetsov is clearly beset with all sorts of mechanical problems. Just looking at photos of it belching smoke as it headed down the English channel suggest that it is in need of a complete overhaul ... or better yet a replacement.
I doubt that they have the facilities to build a new carrier anytime soon. Without the Ukraine shipbuilding yards Russia is going to have to upgrade its own shipyards before they are in a position to even think about replacing the Kuznetsov.
Not only that but its entire surface fleet is in need of replacement. Apart from the occasion frigate and corvette Russia has not built a major surface ship this century. I don't know where they will find the money to do all that and replace their carrier.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The smoke issue could be due to crappy cheap fuel rather than to engine issues.
That is likely true. Money is going to new fighters, armor for the army, and new subs. Given their financial constraints, they do have their priorities correct IMO. Their missile development is moving forward as well.
They have the yard to build new carriers, Sevmash. I doubt Ukraine could build one these days even if the money was available.
It's more than the occasional frigate and corvette, there's a pretty active frigate and corvette building programe going on right now, Yantar and Severnaya are building frigates, Amur and Severnaya are building corvettes. Sevmash is building nuclear submarines.
I suggest you read parts of this thread, and others, going back. It has been discussed that the Kuznetsov is going into a major overhaul and upgrade program iirc next year. Plans for a replacement are currently being worked on but for the 2020-30 timeframe we will see an upgraded Kuznetsov with a Su-33 and MiG-29K airgroup.
The Russian navy certainly has some big plans ... but let's just say that I remain sceptical.
It was only 10 years ago Russia was talking about having 6 strike carrier groups by the late 20s. That clearly isn't going to happen. I think Rusia will be struggling to replace the one aircraft carrier they already have by that time.
Realistically Russia has a huge block obsolescence problem to deal with and not a whole lot of spare cash to spend on fixing that problem.
Russia has a lot of mineral wealth that it hasn't extracted yet. It has one of the largest deposits of diamonds and gold in the world. Not all of its oil and gas deposits have been fully explored so it can be said to be asset rich, just cash poor. It also has a very good scientific and technological community who's knowledge and skills it can utilise to trade with say China for cash. So whilst western sanctions may hurt the Russian economy to a certain degree they will not fully collapse the economy because the Russians can and will deal with others who have no reason to support western unilateral sanctions.
This was never an actual VMF plan, merely wishful thinking. Realistically speaking, Russia will likely have one upgraded Kuznetsov by the late 2020s with maybe work in progress on a replacement vessel. Considering the work currently being done on the Admiral Nakhimov, and the 1164s, it seems to me that there is nothing unrealistic about these plans. Whether the new Leader class destroyer/cruiser gets built remains to be seen but there seems to be little reason to think that the 1155s will need retiring (and if the relatively modest plans for upgrade and re-armament continue they should remain relevant), and with an entourage of 22350s, 11356s, and 1155s, Russia will be able to cobble together cruiser and carrier task forces for the forseeable future. Nothing like the USN, but certainly no third rate power.
Well that depends on what you mean by "spare cash". Russia continues to have a large defense budget, and with economic growth set to resume next year, it's not likely that Russia will end up broke. And given the behavior of the Russian government during this current economic crisis, they seem far more willing to borrow or cut spending in other areas, then significantly reduce defense spending.
Nick underscore
Member
Thanks for the update Feanor. This area very much interests me.
Could you also clarify whether there are any talk/plans to upgrade & re-arm the Adrimal Lazarev (1144.2) and the Kerch (1134B)? Any talk of the x2 956's in reserve?
Hopefully more time and money is made for 'at sea' training.
The Kerch is probably done. The Admiral Lazarev is in question. I think whether that project proceeds will depend on 1) funding and 2) the state of the Leader project. Right now it's been said that once the Nakhimov is done, the Petr Velikiy is next in line. The 956s are probably going to be scrapped eventually. There are powerplant issues with the type.
Haavarla
Active Member
With the economical constrains of Russia, i highly doubt we see a new class carrier being build before 2025. If not into 2030. Operatin a large carrier is so expensive it would suck funding from other programs.
Besides, the most important issue here. Does Russia need to rely on Carrier?
Seems to me Russia has found their way of compensate for not having carriers.
And that is a full divercity of different Cruise missiles that can be launched from Land(Bastion), small corvettes and larger ships, subs, strategic bombers, even from their Navy Su-30SM and tactical bomber Su-34.
As for being something more than a regional power.. as Obama said some years ago, with Russian rapid deployment into Syria, they have showed they can deploy around the world.
Now, granted they don't have lots of Mistrals and carriers, which is a lack of capability, they can rely on their Airforce.
Russia will get upgraded tanker fleet, and new tankers in the years ahead. New cargo planes etc. In the constains of their defence budget that is.
Pls don't compare Russian armed forces to US, its obviously wrong. Still we see the US is now U-turning away from China threat, towards Russia again..
Question is; what did US miss, when Russia started their modernzation program back in 2006?
In my mind, Russia should not build any carrier, but perhaps a new class Missile destroyer/light cruiser. With lots of cruise missiles, and a S400/500 anti-air platform on them, it will have enough force projection to say the least.
Besides, the most important issue here. Does Russia need to rely on Carrier?
Seems to me Russia has found their way of compensate for not having carriers.
And that is a full divercity of different Cruise missiles that can be launched from Land(Bastion), small corvettes and larger ships, subs, strategic bombers, even from their Navy Su-30SM and tactical bomber Su-34.
As for being something more than a regional power.. as Obama said some years ago, with Russian rapid deployment into Syria, they have showed they can deploy around the world.
Now, granted they don't have lots of Mistrals and carriers, which is a lack of capability, they can rely on their Airforce.
Russia will get upgraded tanker fleet, and new tankers in the years ahead. New cargo planes etc. In the constains of their defence budget that is.
Pls don't compare Russian armed forces to US, its obviously wrong. Still we see the US is now U-turning away from China threat, towards Russia again..
Question is; what did US miss, when Russia started their modernzation program back in 2006?
In my mind, Russia should not build any carrier, but perhaps a new class Missile destroyer/light cruiser. With lots of cruise missiles, and a S400/500 anti-air platform on them, it will have enough force projection to say the least.
Tsavo Lion
Banned Member
Some1 in Russia once said: How can a superpower be w/o an a/c carrier?!
Esp. now that the PRC, Japan, SK, UK, France, Spain, Italy, India, Thailand & Brazil all r building &/ already have them. I also heard that the USN has plans to send CVNs to Arctic, where RF boomers patrol- & the original purpose for TAKRs was to protect their SSBNs. That would be interesting- NATO CSG vs. RF CBG in the Arctic!
Esp. now that the PRC, Japan, SK, UK, France, Spain, Italy, India, Thailand & Brazil all r building &/ already have them. I also heard that the USN has plans to send CVNs to Arctic, where RF boomers patrol- & the original purpose for TAKRs was to protect their SSBNs. That would be interesting- NATO CSG vs. RF CBG in the Arctic!
Haavarla
Active Member
I'm sure many figures in Russia say such. Would bet it was guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-cBISOTZzg
He says lots of things..
Still, doesn't change anything from my previous post though.
Russia is connected to the major continent, bar S/N Amerika and Indo China.
It makes no sense to me for Russia to invest in Carriers, at least not super carriers.
And given current Russian approach, it seems they are indeed building smaller compact Corvette and frigate class, and overhaul of larger existing fleet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-cBISOTZzg
He says lots of things..
Still, doesn't change anything from my previous post though.
Russia is connected to the major continent, bar S/N Amerika and Indo China.
It makes no sense to me for Russia to invest in Carriers, at least not super carriers.
And given current Russian approach, it seems they are indeed building smaller compact Corvette and frigate class, and overhaul of larger existing fleet.
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Imagine if Russia didn't have a safe airbase in Syria. Carrier-based air support, at least at first, might have been their only viable option. The Kuzneztsov apparently carried as many as 15 fighters for this deployment, 10 Su-33s (reportedly only 8 have the Gefest upgrade), 4 MiG-29K, and 1 KUB. In addition to the helos. If, after overhaul, it can bring, say, 30 MiG-29Ks, it would be comparable to what Hmeimeem has. If Russia intends to fight wars overseas, not just carry out a strike or two, they need an aircraft carrier. And keep in mind, cruise missiles are extremely expensive, have long reload times, etc. Not to mention that even with all these new ships, the VMF still has a relatively small cruise missile arsenal. Nothing like the USN.
Japan & S. Korea do not have & are not building fixed-wing aircraft carriers. Thailand has a ship which used to operate Harriers, but no longer has any serviceable aircraft so no longer operates as a fixed-wing carrier.
The Netherlands, Argentina, & Australia used to operate fixed wing aircraft carriers. India has operated them for over 50 years, Brazil since the 1960s, Spain since the 1970s, & Italy since the 1980s.
The only recent addition is China.
Tsavo Lion
Banned Member
Japan's Lethal 'Helicopter-Destroyer': An Aircraft Carrier in Disguise
The tilt-rotors r hybrid- both rotary & fixed wing. MV-22B on Korea ship Dokdo
The Chakri Naruebet could later get navalized J-39s or some other fighter- the potential is there. Italian G. Garibaldi
Cavour
Trieste
Spanish Juan Carlos I
Also, from back in 2013:Turkey selects Navantia's Juan Carlos LHD design as winner of its LPD tender As for RANCanberra,
I agree with Feanor & couldn't say it better myself:
Moreover, not just for wars, but to defend her interests- as TR said, "talk softly but carry a big stick!". Otherwise, the other UN Security Council members (not to mention others!) will not be taking Russia seriously.
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Haavarla
Active Member
There is a good chance that Russia AF would be welcomed in countries like Vietnam, Algeria or even Iran, especial if this was one a shorter timeframe Mission. So even without Syria, its not like they would be totally isolated.
Might add Venezuela too. But Russia would never enter any conflict as in Indo China or S America anyway.
Its Middle-East where the stakes are.
So how many clubs Kh-101, Bastion and smaller Kalibr, Kh 555 have Russia used up now in Syria, sub 100 i think. A decent figure i would say. Testing new stuff and getting rid of old stuff.
The bulk of ordinance delivery by Russia in Syria has been by air, with arty coming in second. Definitely over 100 cruise missiles have been fired (probably closer to 200). Clearly a navy of frigates and light cruisers with Kalibr missiles can't make up for the capabilities provided by the Kuznetsov even in its current state. As for conflicts in remote places, never say never. The Russian military is working on expeditionary warfare capability. Why is a separate conversation but they've been making extra efforts for the past ~5 years or so training VDV units together with BDKs (775s mainly) for strategic mobility. They're working on an LHD. And the plan is to expand heavy and superheavy cargo-lift capability within the MoD for scenarios like the current one in Syria.