Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

[owais.usmani]

The first Salvo start "Bulava" is planned for August-September

two missiles, one after the other..........late August or mid september.

 

[Feanor]

Flights of MiG-29K have been resumed. Also the VMF is planning to sign a contract for 24 airframes this year. What the delivery dates will be is unclear.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: ÂÌÔ Ðîññèè êóïèò 24 ïàëóáíûõ èñòðåáèòåëÿ ÌèÃ-29
Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ìèíîáîðîíû âîçîáíîâèëî ïîëåòû ïàëóáíûõ ÌèÃ-29

 

[Feanor]

We have footage of Ka-52 being tested with ship landings.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/65413.html#cutid1

The Ka-52 bort 061 yellow landed multiple times on the deck of the Vice Admiral Kulakov ASW destroyer, project 1155. This is the prelude to the development of the Ka-52K, which is supposed to make up part of the helo group for the Mistrals.

EDIT: Ship trials are continuing including landings on a moving and stationary vessel, more pics here: http://pressa-zvo.livejournal.com/55852.html#cutid1

 

[T.C.P]

The contacts for the 3rd and 4th Mistrals will be signed by the end of the year.

Russia to sign deal for 2 more French warships by yearend | World | RIA Novosti

BTW,

What about the plans to bring the moth balled cruisers back to service? Any news on this?

 

[Wall83]

The contacts for the 3rd and 4th Mistrals will be signed by the end of the year.

Russia to sign deal for 2 more French warships by yearend | World | RIA Novosti

BTW,

What about the plans to bring the moth balled cruisers back to service? Any news on this?

If you refer to the Kirov class the only one that has started some repairs is the Admiral Nakhimov. And they needed more money to finish it.

 

[T.C.P]

Russian navy orders 3 new Krivak IV(Talwar) class frigates-

Russian Navy orders 3 more Krivak IV class frigates | Defense | RIA Novosti

Severodvinsk nuclear attack submarine goes on trials-

Russia's new attack submarine goes for sea trials | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Wall83]

First Yasen class SSN leaves the port.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E19hD7KNE5Y&feature=player_embedded"]ÐПЛ СеверодвинÑк - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks for posting the link, impressive boat!
But for me, i can not see the difference between a Proyekt 971 and an 885....

 

[Feanor]

The Liner ICBM has just had a second successful test, from the Tula missile carrier.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ìèíîáîðîíû óñïåøíî çàïóñòèëî íîâóþ áàëëèñòè÷åñêóþ ðàêåòó

I really have to wonder about it is. Another Sineva upgrade seems pointless, given how all the ships have just been refitted and the service life is long enough to last until all 8 Borei to come to FOC.

 

[KiwiRob]

The contacts for the 3rd and 4th Mistrals will be signed by the end of the year.

Having seen the cabins on board the Mistral Class and the cabins on the Project 20380 Corvettes I imagine the crews will be fighting to get on board a Mistral. Will the Russian Navy keep the French style cabins or will they decontent them.

I don't know if this is true but I've been told the Russian Mistrals will have 1m of additional height in the hanger deck.

 

[Wall83]

It seems to be different opinions about the future of the Akula (Typhoon) class submarines.

In late September a source in defense ministry announched that all the submarines soon will be dismantled.
Russia To Dismantle World's Biggest Subs

a few days later another source from the same ministry was quoted saying that there were no plans to scrap any of the submarines in the near future.
No plans to retire Typhoon class subs soon - Russian military | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[AtmacA]

Russia have navy in Black Sea,Khazar,Baltic and Pacific so Russian navy seperated too much around the seas and each divison isn't capable of helping others in war.There requires 4X more navy spendings to maintain strong army and I think Russia don't have such economic power.So we shouldn't compare whole Russian Navy against others,only cuurent ones in each sea.So what about these:

-Baltic Navy vs Scandinavian Countries+Poland+Germany or UK

-Khazar Navy vs Khazkhisztan,Azerbeijan and Iran

-Pacific Navy vs. US,Japan,Suth Korea

-Black Sea Navy vs. Turkey

 

[Feanor]

Kazakhstan is a close ally of Russia. I don't see why they would face off against each other. Turkey is a NATO member. Conditions under which they would go to war, are fairly limited, and wouldn't be limited to the scope of a naval engagement. There are similar problems with the rest of your dichotomies.

 

[AtmacA]

Feanor

I confess I don't know much about Russian navy. I wonder how many ships Russia have in each sea?

I didn't want to mention these countries will engage with Russia recently.I wanted to mention Russia outnumbers these countries with their total navy and army but in the reality did Russia have a supremacy against border countries?

I guess no one thinks Poland or Turkey have great navies but if there was a real war would they become an easy target for Russia or equivalent powers considering their navy operations?

Of course if there was a conflict many other war instruments would be a part of war and possibly air domination would determine the final outcome but I wonder about succesfull navy moves and operations they can make.

 

[Feanor]

Well if we take Russian doctrine at their word, then the Turkish Navy and naval facilities could/would easily become targets for nuclear weapons, from ASMs, to cruise missiles, to bombs, to (possibly but far less likely) ICBMs.

The Black Sea Fleet and Caspian flotilla are the weakest in the VMF. However the Caspian flotilla also faces little, if any, serious opposition. The BSF on the other hand would probably not do too well against the Turkish Navy. On the other hand the Black Sea is small, and everything in it is in strike range of the AVMF. Especially once they get their new Su-30SMs to replace the Fencers and Be-12s in Crimea.

The Baltic fleet really doesn't have any likely opponents. Given that Russia currently considers NATO an object of nuclear deterrence, any conflict would mean massive use of nuclear weapons. So unless we're supposing war with Finland or Sweden (both rather unlikely) they don't have an immediate adversary.

The Northern Fleet is the most powerful within the VMF, contains the only aircraft carrier, and the only operational Kirov class. It's has the most projection capability out of all the fleets. It also has a number of ICBM trucks in it (namely the 667BDRM), which it's tasked with protecting.

The Pacific fleet has a decent number of surface combatants, but is the most outmatched one of all the fleets, because of the neighborhood, which includes powerful Japanese, South Korean, Chinese, and USN presences. It also has a number of 667BDR subs, which it's supposed to protect. According to plans it is to receive an overhauled Kirov, and a number of Borei-class subs, over the next decade, along with other smaller surface ships and subs.

The real salvation for the VMF is the fact that they simply don't have any likely opponents. Russia's conflicts in the near future are likely to be centered around the Caucus, and Central Asia, and will mainly involve dealing with FSU states, and irregulars. While war with China is certainly possible (far from likely), even if it doesn't go nuclear very very quickly, the land aspect will be many times more important then the naval.

 

[Feanor]

It looks like we finally have an answer to what exactly the Liner SLBM is. It's official index is R-29RMU2.1, and it's an upgrade of the Sineva R-29RMU2. It utilizes an upgraded control computer, on the boats, and represents a desire to extend the life of the 667BDRMs to 2030. It also allows use of the same basic warheads as the Topol-M and Bulava-30 missiles, now on the R-29RMU2 base. It can carry 8 or 10 smaller warheads (depending on how many decoys it's outfitted with), with penetration aids, or 4 larger ones, also with penetration aids.

bmpd - Что такое ракета "Лайнер"

 

[971]

that's seriously bad build quality on that sail.

you'd want to make sure your recovery team is on standby once you started depth tests.....

It’s certainly a Russian building aspect but nothing bad with it really. The shot showing Severodvinsk’s sail for instance shows the sub without the anechoic tiles. That’s the outer hull plating. Granted there seems to be some bending and undulations of the plating in there but the next step is the application of a special adhesive paste compound (which would even the plating joints) over which then the anechoic tiles are fixed. After that, the next step is the affixing of rubberized inserts in between the tiles’ joints so to even further the cavities. At last, antifouling paint is applied. These inserts tend to wear in time, especially after repeated deployments and exposure to weather and water pressure (bending of the tiles, missing tiles and the reappearing of the cavities at the joints being visible again).
One should also take in consideration the more complex and demanding plating process with a double-hull design which is the trademark of Russian submarine building for a very long time.
All things considered, these aspects have near to no significance for the underwater drag effect (eddies that cause the so-called skin drag) while the sub is in silent-drive patrol mode. At higher to maximal speeds, that’s another story.
All in all, the Russians are known to build some of the toughest submarine hulls so there is doubtful any need for recovery teams on standby…


Some examples:

Please note the smoothness of Borei’s outer hull before the applications of the tiles. Can you still see the bad build?
View attachment 4903


Now, the process of tiles application. It really doesn’t look bad at all to me. Again, depends on the quality of the shot, lighting, etc.
View attachment 4904

Omsk in the dry dock with her emergency escape pod removed. I can almost count the joints between the tiles but still, I don’t find it bad.
View attachment 4906

Or here. Tell me that what you see looks bad. The tile joints are barely visible. That’s because of the freshly aplied rubberized inserts I was talking about. A Projekt 667BDRM in all her glory indeed.
View attachment 4905

They look nothing like the tiles on Western Submarines, so is it badly fitted sheet metal or badly fitted tiles?

They look nothing like the tiles on Western subs because the Western subs don’t employ anechoic tiles on most submarines (exceptions do exists) as far as I can remember. Only anti-reflecting coating. That’s why one can’t see as many joints on the Western subs’ single hulls as on the Russian ones.

…eg look at Collins - can you see any indication of poor fitment or even where the tiles join?

Well, I can certainly see the tile joints. But that’s the plating joints and not tile joints. Also, the bulges just aft the sail and forward on the starboard side (probably sensor-housings), how much drag do you think they’d cause at high speeds? Plus the forward upper-sail passive sonar mountings? Can you see plating-joints there? I can.
View attachment 4907

btw, acoustic matting is not normally applied to the walls of a sail. the signature management issues are more important elsewhere

I beg to disagree with that statement. With the sail part, i.e.

Thanks for posting the link, impressive boat!
But for me, i can not see the difference between a Proyekt 971 and an 885....

The bow length of the Yasen/Severodvinsk Projekt 885 is much shorter while the overall length is much greater. That’s in no lesser part due to the installation of vertically launch tubes for ASW and AS missiles. The length of the sail seems to be identical (as well as the overall design) but the aft tapering into the hull seems to be more abrupt then on 971.
Very easy to differentiate IMO.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It’s certainly a Russian building aspect but nothing bad with it really. The shot showing Severodvinsk’s sail for instance shows the sub without the anechoic tiles. That’s the outer hull plating.

and the fact that the tiles are missing means that it is acoustically transmitting. there are about 6 members in here who either work/worked in the sub industry or are ex submariners - one is an ex nuke driver. any one of us would beg to differ from real world experience that "it's nothing bad"

Granted there seems to be some bending and undulations of the plating in there but the next step is the application of a special adhesive paste compound (which would even the plating joints) over which then the anechoic tiles are fixed. After that, the next step is the affixing of rubberized inserts in between the tiles’ joints so to even further the cavities. At last, antifouling paint is applied. These inserts tend to wear in time, especially after repeated deployments and exposure to weather and water pressure (bending of the tiles, missing tiles and the reappearing of the cavities at the joints being visible again).

actually they don't wear so much from weather exposure issues, they come off due to hull contraction issues as they go through pressure changes. Also modern anechoic tiles (in the last 10 years at least) do NOT use rubber inserts.

One should also take in consideration the more complex and demanding plating process with a double-hull design which is the trademark of Russian submarine building for a very long time.

and that has SFA to do with why the tiles are coming off.

All things considered, these aspects have near to no significance for the underwater drag effect (eddies that cause the so-called skin drag) while the sub is in silent-drive patrol mode. At higher to maximal speeds, that’s another story.

actually, anything above 5 knots will turn the sub into a trnasponder. its the nature of acoustics. all things considered, your comment is just not based on fact and the real world evidence. A sub with a missing set of tiles above 5 knots starts to develop a new signature footprint over various speeds and depths. You can name the sub based on this footprint -

All in all, the Russians are known to build some of the toughest submarine hulls so there is doubtful any need for recovery teams on standby…

the Russian equiv of the submarine league doesn't think so - in fact they acknowledge that the soviets/russians had the woerst accident and availability of any navy.

Some examples:

Please note the smoothness of Borei’s outer hull before the applications of the tiles. Can you still see the bad build?

are you serious??? its not about how smooth the hull looks at dockside - its how it reacts at changes in depth - thats what causes hull contraction and expansion and is what causes the tiles to shift.

Now, the process of tiles application. It really doesn’t look bad at all to me. Again, depends on the quality of the shot, lighting, etc.

followed by:

Omsk in the dry dock with her emergency escape pod removed. I can almost count the joints between the tiles but still, I don’t find it bad.

----------------------

Or here. Tell me that what you see looks bad. The tile joints are barely visible. That’s because of the freshly aplied rubberized inserts I was talking about. A Projekt 667BDRM in all her glory indeed.

again, some of us have worked in sub building, I'm not the only one in here either. To claim that "it doesn't look bad" is not an engineering comment of any order

They look nothing like the tiles on Western subs because the Western subs don’t employ anechoic tiles on most submarines (exceptions do exists) as far as I can remember. Only anti-reflecting coating. That’s why one can’t see as many joints on the Western subs’ single hulls as on the Russian ones.[

what absolute rubbish. all "western" nukes are tiles, all chinese nukes are tiles, and the conventionals designed to dive deep and kill nukes also have tiles.

Well, I can certainly see the tile joints. But that’s the plating joints and not tile joints. Also, the bulges just aft the sail and forward on the starboard side (probably sensor-housings), how much drag do you think they’d cause at high speeds? Plus the forward upper-sail passive sonar mountings? Can you see plating-joints there? I can.

I beg to disagree with that statement. With the sail part, i.e.

The bow length of the Yasen/Severodvinsk Projekt 885 is much shorter while the overall length is much greater. That’s in no lesser part due to the installation of vertically launch tubes for ASW and AS missiles. The length of the sail seems to be identical (as well as the overall design) but the aft tapering into the hull seems to be more abrupt then on 971.
Very easy to differentiate IMO.

I suggest that you pause before coming into a room pretending to know about how subs are constructed and then lecturing others - I've worked on 3 sub types including a complex review of a russian one where the client wanted to install western systems

There are other people in here who have also worked in sub design and building.

 

[Feanor]

It looks like the contracts with USC for the Boreys and Severodvinsk are about to be signed. Also two additional Kilos are to be ordered from Sevmash, because the project 667s are taking too long. All in all, not good news. While this particular point on the price war is getting resolved, orders for new equipment are still slow, and most of them will be prioritized to the BSF (which has the oldest ships).

http://www.arms-expo.ru/049051124050053055054055.html

 

[Wall83]

Latest costs reports about the new SSGN Yasen class submarines it that it will go for 47 bilion Rubels. (about 1,5 bilion dollars).
This is almost dubbel the cost that of a SSBN Borei class submarine.
How can this be? The Yasen class cant be that more advanced can it.

Media Got Wind Of Submarines Cost