Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

Some stuff I never got around to posting before the war started.

In Tadjikistan the Russian base there still had a btln of T-72AVs. Unlike the T-72As in the 90th TD, these are proper AVs with the K-1 set up in a V-shape. It's unclear what happened to their tanks, since they were presumably in good working order (they saw exercises regularly). They took delivery of T-72B3 mod'16s.

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Российские военные в Таджикистане получили танки Т-72Б3М

gurkhan.blogspot.com

2S7M deliveries started pre-war. For a long time the Russian Land Forces had one btln each of the 2S7s and 2S4s. This was increased to two before the war, but they remained rather rare. They are now very common. Note this upgrade has more to do with replacing components that were manufactured in Ukraine then actually upgrading the vehicles, though reported they did get new comms.

«Уралтрансмаш» поставило 203-мм самоходные пушки 2С7М «Малка» для Минобороны РФ после капитального ремонта с глубокой модернизацией.

gurkhan.blogspot.com

Военным передали Малку

Уралтрансмаш отправил первую партию САУ «Малка» в Минобороны РФ В рамках выполнения гособоронзаказа екатеринбургское предприятие КонцернУВЗ поставило 203-мм самоходные пушки 2С7М «Малка» после капитального ремонта с глубокой модернизацией. В изделии произведена замена коробок передач, механизмов…

ru-artillery.livejournal.com

State trials of the 2S35 were starting with an anticipated end date of Sep. 2022. There were experiments with a modified 8-gun battery, and it wasn't clear in what organization structure they would eventually be deployed in. The type is conspicuously absent from the current war.

Государственные испытания САУ «Коалиция-СВ»

gurkhan.blogspot.com

Pacific Fleet Marines took deliveries of T-80BVs. The marines lost their tanks for a while, and then got them back. The plan was eventually to get them T-80BVMs but only a few units ever got them.

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A look at the PRP-5. Russia hasn't gotten them yet, only the PRP-4A, an upgrade of the Soviet artillery-recon vehicle on a BMP chassis. The PRP-5 will reportedly have a variant on the BMP-3 chassis as well. Russian definitely needs a new artillery-recon vehicle.

Подвижный разведывательный пункт пятого поколения ПРП-5

gurkhan.blogspot.com

An upgraded T-62M variant was shown off pre-war that included a mast with an IRST ball on it. It also got K-1 sidescreens, with cage armor on the back. It also got thermals. This raises questions about whether it would have been smarter to install better ERA and not bother with the mast, but presumably all of these are options. In the current war we've seen the 103rd Repair Plant putting the thermals in question on T-62s, and the same thermal box on T-72 and T-80 variants.

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An interesting look at the Magnolia artillery system, basically a Vena 2S31 module on a chassis of a new Russian Arctic armored vehicle. The type will likely not see production with the current war, and was always a tad questionable, though presumably if this platform became the standard for all Arctic units, it could see a production run of 300 vehicles or so (~200 as primary APCs/IFVs), a handful of command and MEDEVAC vehicles, and presumably some comms platforms. The artillery/SAM platform is the DT-30, so distinctly not this new platform.

Новейшие разработки ЦНИИ "Буревестник"

отрывок видеожурнала УВЗ Сегодня от 06.12.2021 - https://youtu.be/xv65CbenEas немножко испытаний Магнолии

ru-artillery.livejournal.com

Russian ground forces took delivery of the new Metka MANPADS, a follow-on to the Verba.

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[Big_Zucchini]

State trials of the 2S35 were starting with an anticipated end date of Sep. 2022. There were experiments with a modified 8-gun battery, and it wasn't clear in what organization structure they would eventually be deployed in. The type is conspicuously absent from the current war

The cancellation of the Armata program entails cancellation of the 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV.
They could use another chassis, but that would no longer be designated 2S35.

 

[Feanor]

The cancellation of the Armata program entails cancellation of the 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV.
They could use another chassis, but that would no longer be designated 2S35.

Th 2S35 never used the Armata chassis. It was always rolled out on the T-90M chassis. It was allegedly eventually planned to move to the Armata chassis but this was never done.

I'm also not aware of any official Armata cancellation, though it's likely that will be the case with the current war.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I'm also not aware of any official Armata cancellation, though it's likely that will be the case with the current war

This is the article:

20 триллионов на ветер. Крупнейшая в российской истории госпрограмма производства оружия остановлена из-за провалов в Украине - Русская служба The Moscow Times

Крупнейшая в современной российской истории госпрограмма производства оружия, на которую из федерального бюджета было выделено 20 трлн рублей за последние 10 лет, сдана в утиль.

www.moscowtimes.eu

You can judge for yourself whether you believe this to be a temporary freeze, or outright cancellation.
I've yet to see interpretations as the former.

Th 2S35 never used the Armata chassis. It was always rolled out on the T-90M chassis. It was allegedly eventually planned to move to the Armata chassis but this was never done.

I inferred from the article that Armata is a specific case, and the general rule is anything that is non-standard makes room for standard, in-production, and supportable equipment.

As for how feasible is a 2S35 on a T-90 platform, I just don't know. We've seen it drive and shoot, but that's not much. Having been designed for the Armata may well mean it would not mate well with a much less powerful powertrain, and a vastly differently designed hull.

 

[Feanor]

This is the article:

20 триллионов на ветер. Крупнейшая в российской истории госпрограмма производства оружия остановлена из-за провалов в Украине - Русская служба The Moscow Times

Крупнейшая в современной российской истории госпрограмма производства оружия, на которую из федерального бюджета было выделено 20 трлн рублей за последние 10 лет, сдана в утиль.

www.moscowtimes.eu

You can judge for yourself whether you believe this to be a temporary freeze, or outright cancellation.
I've yet to see interpretations as the former.

Nothing in that article specifically says the Armata program is cancelled. I think it's likely the program will go on the back burner, and it's an open question whether Russia can produce something that sophisticated under sanctions. On the flip side, the Land Forces badly need new light armor and BMP-3s are problematic in several ways. I think we will have to wait and see what the ultimate future of the problem is.

I inferred from the article that Armata is a specific case, and the general rule is anything that is non-standard makes room for standard, in-production, and supportable equipment.

As for how feasible is a 2S35 on a T-90 platform, I just don't know. We've seen it drive and shoot, but that's not much. Having been designed for the Armata may well mean it would not mate well with a much less powerful powertrain, and a vastly differently designed hull.

I think you have it backwards. The 2S35 was initially planned on the Armata platform but was almost immediately moved to the T-90M platform. Factory trials and experimental exploitation were done on that chassis, and state trials were started on that platform. The only 2S35s in existence, at least that we've seen, are all on the T-90M chassis. Ok technically there's a version on a set of towed tracks, and a version on a Kamaz truck, but both are prototypes (the first likely a testbed), and the second didn't work out (hence the sad Mal'va as an alternative). But on all the parades, and on all videos, it's all the T-90M chassis.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Nothing in that article specifically says the Armata program is cancelled. I think it's likely the program will go on the back burner, and it's an open question whether Russia can produce something that sophisticated under sanctions. On the flip side, the Land Forces badly need new light armor and BMP-3s are problematic in several ways. I think we will have to wait and see what the ultimate future of the problem is.

The Armata project has already started wading a bit deep regarding its age. I'm afraid freezing it for a few years would create too many obsolescence issues, like the Arjun, in turn creating a situation in which it's best to just start with a clean slate.

 

[seaspear]

Is there any knowledge on the Russian t-64 tank this article suggests large numbers are in storage but the t-62 have been favored in restoration is there fact that most have been dismantled ?
More than two thousand Russian T-64: why they are still not in Ukraine (topwar.ru)
Orynx does list some destroyed Russian t-64 bv tanks but these may be from earlier captured Ukrainian ones from 2014?
Guide to Russian T-64 tanks in Donbas: Part 1 - InformNapalm.org (English)

 

[John Fedup]

Is there any knowledge on the Russian t-64 tank this article suggests large numbers are in storage but the t-62 have been favored in restoration is there fact that most have been dismantled ?
More than two thousand Russian T-64: why they are still not in Ukraine (topwar.ru)
Orynx does list some destroyed Russian t-64 bv tanks but these may be from earlier captured Ukrainian ones from 2014?
Guide to Russian T-64 tanks in Donbas: Part 1 - InformNapalm.org (English)

The first link was an interesting read. If correct then the T64’s engine problem seems to cancel out most of its advantages over the T-62. The last thing the Russians need is a bunch of abandoned T-64s due to engine problems. Worse, maybe the Ukraine along with Western help could find a way to repower them.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

And indeed, Oryx's list does feature more T-64 variants abandoned and captured (by Russia) than Russia has lost, even when discounting potential gains by Donbas militias.
The low reliability of the T-64 may prevent it from being regularly used, but it does not prevent it from niche roles like mine clearing or decoy.

By now, we've seen Ukraine already toying with some new designs, for example converting captured Russian T-62 into ARV.
Attach a mine plow to a T-64, have only a driver inside or some simple remote control kit, and it becomes a good makeshift breacher. And its one time use means it doesn't have to be very reliable. But so far, I wouldn't expect such innovation on Russia's side, considering just how many high quality tanks they're willing to lose in senseless battles.

 

[seaspear]

And indeed, Oryx's list does feature more T-64 variants abandoned and captured (by Russia) than Russia has lost, even when discounting potential gains by Donbas militias.
The low reliability of the T-64 may prevent it from being regularly used, but it does not prevent it from niche roles like mine clearing or decoy.

By now, we've seen Ukraine already toying with some new designs, for example converting captured Russian T-62 into ARV.
Attach a mine plow to a T-64, have only a driver inside or some simple remote control kit, and it becomes a good makeshift breacher. And its one time use means it doesn't have to be very reliable. But so far, I wouldn't expect such innovation on Russia's side, considering just how many high quality tanks they're willing to lose in senseless battles.

Ive seen some footage of some of the old tanks with turrets removed and crane added as tank recovery vehicles by the Ukrainians
This article on the Armata seems to show its production has stopped it could be a combination of design issues or even effects of sanctions
Armata – the story is over » Wavell Room

 

[Feanor]

The Armata project has already started wading a bit deep regarding its age. I'm afraid freezing it for a few years would create too many obsolescence issues, like the Arjun, in turn creating a situation in which it's best to just start with a clean slate.

You might be right about that. Except it's not clear if Russia can produce a new heavy tracked platform from a clean slate under current conditions.

Is there any knowledge on the Russian t-64 tank this article suggests large numbers are in storage but the t-62 have been favored in restoration is there fact that most have been dismantled ?
More than two thousand Russian T-64: why they are still not in Ukraine (topwar.ru)
Orynx does list some destroyed Russian t-64 bv tanks but these may be from earlier captured Ukrainian ones from 2014?
Guide to Russian T-64 tanks in Donbas: Part 1 - InformNapalm.org (English)

Many T-64s were scrapped a while back. It's not 100% clear how many are still in storage, and in what condition. Additionally I don't believe any armor repair plants in Russia can handle T-64s.

EDIT: Less so whether they can handle and more so whether they are set up for it/have experience with them. The T-64 was out of service in Russia first. Before iirc even the T-55s (though only a handful were in the Far East). The T-62 is the last removed from service, with some seeing action in the Georgian War, and the repair plant doing work restorting and shipping them to Syria and Libya so it was relatively easy to send some to the front.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Russia received it's first batch of BMP-3s for 2023. At pre-war production levels, 200 vehicles or 6-7 btln sets is normal.

«Курганмашзавод» поставил Минобороны партию новых боевых машин пехоты БМП-3

Первая в этом году партия боевых машин пехоты БМП-3 поставлена военным, отгрузку бронетехники произвел Курганмашзавод. Об этом сообщает пресс-служба Ростеха. Большая партия боевых машин пехоты передана Минобороны, техника отправлена железнодорожным транспортом. Как сообщили в госкорпорации, БМП-3

topwar.ru

A train full of upgraded T-72Bs somewhere in Russia. It's very unclear whether it has the new autoloader, and it's definitely lacking the wind sensor. It suggests that we're looking at a T-72B with more ERA and thermals rather then a B3 variant. Work on this variant was ongoing as early as November of last year and it raises questions about whether Russia can still produce the Sosna FCS.

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Another closer look at this T-72B mod'23.

Новая модификация Т-72Б

Появились кадры Т-72Б модернизированных в 2022 году по итогам войны. Машина представляет собой мобилизационный вариант Т-72Б, это не Т-72Б3, то есть никакой крутой сосны там нет. Во первых убрали позорные мешки НИИ Стали, которые отваливались через пару километров…

andrei-bt.livejournal.com

A T-80BVM variant that got the same treatment.

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Another video of the T-62 and BRDM-2 upgrade work in Chita.

 

[Feanor]

A thoroughly shocking piece of new, the Bumerang wheeled medium platform has begun state trials. Note the Bumerang was the most delayed of all the programs, and the Armata family platforms have been in state trials for a while now. Many, myself included, assumed that these programs were either dead or at the very least on the very back burner. Producing complex new vehicles while under sanctions and during a war when all resources are needed to satisfy the armed forces needs for armored vehicles (going so far as to produce improvised armored Urals) is a questionable decision and personally I can't help but wonder if all the electronics and complex systems involved in this vehicle can even be produced. But here we are, state trials. It's possible that this is just inertial, but it could also be an indicator that these programs are still proceeding.

Note, for a while it looked like the T-14 might show up on the front. We saw pairs, then platoons, and then what looked like a company of them training in Kazan', driving around in columns, doing live fire exercises, etc. However all has gone quiet for a couple of months at least now. I'll be sure to update if we see anything else.

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[Pukovnik7]

The Armata project has already started wading a bit deep regarding its age. I'm afraid freezing it for a few years would create too many obsolescence issues, like the Arjun, in turn creating a situation in which it's best to just start with a clean slate.

To be fair, most of MBTs in the West are quite old in their basic design. Some over half a century. But the basic design of the tank has been figured out during World War 2. What matters most are the electronics and the gun - so if you have a basic design figured out well, it doesn't really matter how old it is, you just need to swap out the electronics and the gun.

Issue for Russia is that they didn't even figure out the basic design. IIRC, Russian tank engines still use the basic design that KV-1 tanks did during the Second World War, and Armata is basically the first major redesign since introduction of autoloader.

EDIT: Found an interesting video:

 

[Feanor]

To be fair, most of MBTs in the West are quite old in their basic design. Some over half a century. But the basic design of the tank has been figured out during World War 2. What matters most are the electronics and the gun - so if you have a basic design figured out well, it doesn't really matter how old it is, you just need to swap out the electronics and the gun.

Issue for Russia is that they didn't even figure out the basic design. IIRC, Russian tank engines still use the basic design that KV-1 tanks did during the Second World War, and Armata is basically the first major redesign since introduction of autoloader.

EDIT: Found an interesting video:

It's not a very good video. Much of it is generalized BS. The speaker seems blatantly unaware of even well known information that supports his position. For example he talks about the BMPT firing it's guns at the same time. But if you watch the video he cites, you can clearly see only one barrel firing. And this is well known. Only one of its guns can fire at a time. He then claims it's just as vulnerable as other tanks, which is untrue. It's probably the heaviest protected chassis Russia deploys, certainly much better then anything other then the T-90s (using a T-90 chassis itself but Relikt ERA). He even misses the most hilarious obvious drawback, the poorly protected exposed turret. True it houses no crew, but the BMPT can be mission-killed with a burst of auto-cannon fire to the turret from almost any range that you can hit it from. The protection on those exposed weapons and optics just isn't there (ok there's clearly some, but far less then the rest of the vehicle and it's the most conspicuous portion of it). I won't dissect every other point, there are plenty of good criticism one can make of the Russian Land Forces. This video makes none of them. Add in the platform-centric approach, the complete ignorance of realities about how militaries operate, and you have a garbage tier video.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

To be fair, most of MBTs in the West are quite old in their basic design. Some over half a century. But the basic design of the tank has been figured out during World War 2. What matters most are the electronics and the gun - so if you have a basic design figured out well, it doesn't really matter how old it is, you just need to swap out the electronics and the gun.

Just swapping out the electronics is a far less trivial thing than it seems.

What does Russia have in terms of progress on Armata? It has the hull and turret form sorted out. But it is actually the easiest part to do. The next critical components are the engine bloc, general computerization, protection systems, fire control, sensory, and BMS.
Of these, fire control, sensors, and BMS, are the most prone to progress reversal if a project is halted.
Russia's business model for the MIC is detached from current economical concepts, and its MIC is constantly in a collapse-bailout loop, making it hard to retain knowledge and experience as workers tend to not return after being fired.
This means that progress stops frequently, and usually also is reversed, because new workers need a long learning time to pick up from where the previous ones left off. This could mean months at a time. Meanwhile, the systems are only getting older and less relevant.

What happens then if they decide to scrap a certain system, and develop a brand new one? Well, recertification of certain things, delaying the whole project as a result, and of course developing that item will take several years by itself, especially if it has to be custom built for a single vehicle type.

When a brand new AFV enters service, if designed competently, it will have a steady queue of obsolescence issues, starting from the day it enters service. And yes, that's right, AFVs have nearly obsolete parts from day one.
But when you just let the AFV accumulate all these obsolescence issues before it enters service, to the point where most are already obsolete, then it becomes an unbearable task, and you get something like the Arjun.

 

[Ananda]

The main Russian tanks decided to equip the Arena-M complex

The Arena-M Active Protection Complex (KAZ) is planned to be installed on the T-90 and T-80 tanks. This was reported to the TASS agency by the holding company "High-Precision Complexes"

www.oreanda-news.com

Rostec announce their Arena-M APS is ready and seems targeting T-90M and T-80BVM as platform to used this soon. Question remains if they can produce enough and implement fast on both types? Perhaps this is why T-62 and T-72 being upgraded ? To give time retrofitting T-90M and T-80BVM? Who knows.

T-72 tank’s new reactive armor successfully passes tests with trophy munitions — Rostec

tass-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[seaspear]

Since the top article announces plans of September last year there should of been enough time in more than seven months to modify quite a number and deploy with feedback

 

[Big_Zucchini]

The main Russian tanks decided to equip the Arena-M complex

The Arena-M Active Protection Complex (KAZ) is planned to be installed on the T-90 and T-80 tanks. This was reported to the TASS agency by the holding company "High-Precision Complexes"

www.oreanda-news.com

Rostec announce their Arena-M APS is ready and seems targeting T-90M and T-80BVM as platform to used this soon. Question remains if they can produce enough and implement fast on both types? Perhaps this is why T-62 and T-72 being upgraded ? To give time retrofitting T-90M and T-80BVM? Who knows.

T-72 tank’s new reactive armor successfully passes tests with trophy munitions — Rostec

tass-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Hard to imagine they actually managed to finish a mmW radar with sufficient capabilities in that form factor, but even with the benefit of doubt it's still not really going to make much of a difference for them.
We see much more mission kills from artillery and various drones than 2nd gen ATGMs.

 

[Feanor]

Update.

Some sped up production footage from UVZ. The factory is plugging at near it's full capacity. We can still see some BMPTs and T-14s in their halls, though they are certainly a minority.

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Colonelcassad

Танки Т-14 "Армата", Т-90М "Прорыв" и БМПТ "Терминатор" в сборочном цеху УралВагонЗавода. @milinfolive

t.me

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Remdizel, a Kamaz affiliate, has shown a new Tayfun variant with components like armored glass standardized with the Z-STS and domestically produced. Russia could certainly use more MRAPs, especially those Linza CASEVACs.

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Новая версия полностью импортозамещенного бронеавтомобиля «Тайфун-К53949» получила название «Феникс»

Фото иллюстрационное Российский бронеавтомобиль "Тайфун-К53949", разработанный компанией "Ремдизель", полностью избавился от импортных деталей в своей конструкции и производится исключительно из российских комплектующих. Новая версия импортозамещенного броневика получила

topwar.ru

A look at the new second-layer ERA mount for side-skirts. It went from soft-shell to these containers. And there are now chains on the top-cage.

Новинки защиты танков РФ

Отсутствие взаимодействия с пехотой, инвалидное управление и связь, вечно открытые люки. Все это на фоне беспилотников, джевелинов и высокоточного оружия, вынуждает кулибиных придумывать все новее и новые решения. Вот, к примеру, последние разработки УВЗ на Т-72Б привинтили ДЗ…

andrei-bt.livejournal.com

A T-80BVM with a remote-controlled door for the Sosna sight. It's a ridiculous oversight that persisted from the T-72B3 mod'11, all the way to the last pre-war batches of T-80BVMs and T-72B3 mod'16s. The reason can only be ascribed to bureaucratic inertia.

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A T-80BVM mod'22 with both the hard-shell second ERA layer, and the door for the Sosna sight.

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A Russian T-80BV variant with the machine-gun rotatable from inside the turret, like a T-64. This is likely not a serial upgrade variant but instead a local upgrade done by armored repair plants.

Новая модификация Т-80БВ

Вот это поворот. Как известно на танки Т-64А с 1973 года останавливается командирская башенка с дистанционно управляемым пулеметом. Не нужно было выползать из танка по пояс и крутить тяжелую башенку вручную. Но это решение очень не понравилось конструкторам из Нижнего Тагила и Ленинграда.…

andrei-bt.livejournal.com

A government visit to the OTM factory that, despite no longer being a producer of MBTs, continues to upgrade the existing T-80B stockpile.

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It appears newly produced BMP-3s are coming with extra armor as a standard. This is, in principle, a wise decision. While the BMP-3 is much better armored then a BMP-1 or 2, it's far behind current western IFVs. The additional armor doesn't bridge the gap, but it helps.

Про БМП

Курганский завод начал поставлять БМП-3 с дополнительной защитой решетчатые экраны и дополнительная броня бортов. Всего год понадобился для этого. Выпуск дополнительной брони для БМП-1, 2 так и не смогли осилить. Никакой ДЗ как мы видим нет, и скорее всего не будет, во первых вес 4…

andrei-bt.livejournal.com