Like I would believe you. Do you mind telling us which shipyards did the works?
Russia to Deliver Su-33 Fighters to China
- Thread starter kams
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contedicavour
New Member
It's true that the Chinese government can invest what it wants in defence, though making the Varyag operational just as a training carrier is a huge cost... why not ask the Russians to allow some Chinese pilots to train with their new SU33s off the Kutznetsov ?It's believed by many people (including myself) that Varyag will be sailing on its own by 2008. If this deal is signed by end of the year, then the first two might be delivered by 2008. Then, they can start testing and training and such.
By the time they are fully trained, PLAN can start building a new carrier based on the learnings of the Varyag's design and of the flight operations off its sistership Kutznetsov. Or, if they insist with the Varyag itself, rebuild it to include modern electronics, replace used material in critical parts of the hull and superstructure, etc. That way the ship would last 30+ years.
cheers
we also speculated that. That is for China to pay the Russians to train itself on kutznetsov, but it's just not the same as having your own large training carrier. I'm not sure how long the Varyag would last, but the Chinese investment on Varyag is probably peanuts compare to its other naval investment. Remember, it paid only $20 million for the ship. And its investment in developing the electronics and powerplant for the ship can also be used on future carriers.It's true that the Chinese government can invest what it wants in defence, though making the Varyag operational just as a training carrier is a huge cost... why not ask the Russians to allow some Chinese pilots to train with their new SU33s off the Kutznetsov ?
By the time they are fully trained, PLAN can start building a new carrier based on the learnings of the Varyag's design and of the flight operations off its sistership Kutznetsov. Or, if they insist with the Varyag itself, rebuild it to include modern electronics, replace used material in critical parts of the hull and superstructure, etc. That way the ship would last 30+ years.
cheers
abramsteve
New Member
Relax! Im sure he's just joking!Like I would believe you. Do you mind telling us which shipyards did the works?
Having an operational carrier of their own would probably work out more in their favor than having just the pilots train elsewhere. As has been said before, the Chinese are new to the carriers business and would probably want to play around with one to get the hang of things. Eg exercising with other fleet units, different operational maneuvers and the like...
Just my thoughts...
Aircraft carrier is not just about dozens of pilots flying some planes. Itself is a gigantic weapon system which requires far more than some pilots to operate it efficiently. Also, it's the core of a battle group consisting of more than a dozen warships. All these need training. Plane taking off or landing is just a relatively small part, albeit the most noticable part.It's true that the Chinese government can invest what it wants in defence, though making the Varyag operational just as a training carrier is a huge cost... why not ask the Russians to allow some Chinese pilots to train with their new SU33s off the Kutznetsov ?
By the time they are fully trained, PLAN can start building a new carrier based on the learnings of the Varyag's design and of the flight operations off its sistership Kutznetsov. Or, if they insist with the Varyag itself, rebuild it to include modern electronics, replace used material in critical parts of the hull and superstructure, etc. That way the ship would last 30+ years.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Agree. Though the PLAN already has Sovremenny DDGs, built to escort Kuznetsov carriers, and 6+ real AAW DDGs with SA-N-6 and Chinese-Ukrainian SAMs with even longer range, all VLS.Aircraft carrier is not just about dozens of pilots flying some planes. Itself is a gigantic weapon system which requires far more than some pilots to operate it efficiently. Also, it's the core of a battle group consisting of more than a dozen warships. All these need training. Plane taking off or landing is just a relatively small part, albeit the most noticable part.
Training these ships' crews to escort a carrier shouldn't be too hard. Besides, joint exercises with the Russian Navy would also help.
cheers
Heck I for one aren’t surprised that they buying naval fighters; it is obvious for some time now that Chinese are finishing Varjag and if you look at type051C destroyers( no helicopter hangar, SA-N-6) there is quite obvious that those are build as CBG AWD ships…
And IMHO Varjag will be used as fully operational carrier, there is no chance that they will spend so much money to finish her and then used her as training carrier only… Only unknown factor in how much time will pass before PLAN manages to make her truly operational.
Building carrier is joust matter of available founds and political will, problems are personnel training and carrier operations. Not pilots but sailors, deck crews, support personnel etc.
And IMHO Varjag will be used as fully operational carrier, there is no chance that they will spend so much money to finish her and then used her as training carrier only… Only unknown factor in how much time will pass before PLAN manages to make her truly operational.
Building carrier is joust matter of available founds and political will, problems are personnel training and carrier operations. Not pilots but sailors, deck crews, support personnel etc.
China has, as she has built supertankers.To construct a carrier unobserved, one would require a big enclosed dry dock, one capable of holding 60,000 T ship. I don't think China has any.
weasel1962
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aircraft carriers are different from supertankers,they are weapons of war,supertankers are not and hence can be built in the open instead of a sheltered dry dock(enclosed).China has, as she has built supertankers.
PLAN philosophy has always been using submarines to counter submarines, not the best one, but that's its philosphy.Doesn't the Su-33s provide air defence?
Can air to air missiles from a su-33 be used to shot down anti ship missiles?
The PLAN doesn't have any submarine warefare ships. what is china doing about this
As for su-33, the latter version of su-33 have multirole capability.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #35
I said 'covered' dry dock. No they don't have.China has, as she has built supertankers.
True, china does not have covered dry dock large enough to hold a 60KT ship.I said 'covered' dry dock. No they don't have.
In fact does any country build aircraft carriers in house?
Also, to build such a large ship in a closed building, it's not very convenient. And it's just to keep it secret for an extra couple of years. What's point?
Besides, as I mentioned last year, there are many sub systems need to be manufactured in hundreds, if not thousands, of factories involving hundred thound people all across the country. It's impossible to hide the whole project.
In fact I bet china will let the news slowly pass through to outside world to reduce the shock effect.
Our forum's reaction is an example: just compare the absolute rejection in last year's discussions to this year's relatively reasonable discussions.
Actually many Chinese warships are built in open yards, including the 052C class.aircraft carriers are different from supertankers,they are weapons of war,supertankers are not and hence can be built in the open instead of a sheltered dry dock(enclosed).
most warships are built in the open ,it is extremely costly to have closed dock facilities,however i believe large merchant vessels can be modified to provide maintainence and repair work to warships ,i believe these are called as the floating dry docks.Actually many Chinese warships are built in open yards, including the 052C class.
Actually, can you find a picture of aircraft carrier being built in a sheltered dry dock, especially those medium to huge size ones. I am interested.aircraft carriers are different from supertankers,they are weapons of war,supertankers are not and hence can be built in the open instead of a sheltered dry dock(enclosed).
As far as I know, in china, only that HuangPu shipyard use a enclosed dry dock to build warships and the largest it can build is 6000Ton. Even the 3000-4000Ton 054 ships had to be moved outside to install the main radar mast, the roof is simply not high enough.
Even with open docks, you won't recognize a carrier from any other hull, until the superstructure on top is being installed. Remember back in 1999, there was a lot of speculation about Chinese carriers when two large hulls were being spotted under construction. Both hulls turned out to be tankers.