Russia to Deliver Su-33 Fighters to China

[kams]

Russia to Deliver Su-33 Fighters to China
Russia’s state exporter of weapons, Rosoboronexport is completing negotiations to ship to China up to 50 Su-33 jet fighters for a total worth of $2.5 billion. If the deal is ever clinched, it will be the second biggest contract for export of Russia’s armaments.
Till late this year, China will buy in Russia two Su-33 jet fighters on trial for the aircraft carrier that is currently constructed. The deal value is around $100 million, sources close to negotiations said. Bound by the very tough confidential agreements on military cooperation, Rosoboronexport doesn’t comment on the talks.

But the sources say the contract will be sealed in December in Beijing. The aircraft will be constructed by Komsomolsk-on-Amur Production Association and tested by China at the ground range and at Varyag aircraft carrier that was acquired in Ukraine in 1999 and which construction is being completed now. Russia uses Su-33 only at Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

China intends to come up with its own aircraft carrier by 2010, equipping it with foreign jets. But it will probably attempt to design its own variant of Su-33 by using Russia's technology.

The agreed option provides for delivery of 12 more Su-33 jets. The consignment may widen to 48, stepping up the budget to $2.5 billion. Should it happen, it would be the second biggest military and technological contract of Russia, trailing in size only the $3-billion agreement for Su-30MKI license assembly in India.

“Theoretically, China can make aircraft. They have mastered license assembly of J-11, the actual Su-27SK. The question is how much it will cost and how efficient it will be in operation,” said Konstantin Makienko, an expert of Strategy and Technology Center

Russia to Deliver Su-33 Fighters to China


Very interesting news from Russia.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Whats interesting is that it confirms the Varag is being completed for use as an aircraft carrier, and not an amusement park. Why this was thought to be impossible, I don't know. Engines could be steam, which China has experience in, 4 twinpack Ukainian gas turbines, or even VL diesels of the kind fitted to supertankers, electronics will be cobbled together from existing sources that are already being used on Chins's latest destroyers, self defence, China has the technology, aircraft, brought from Russia, voila. It may not be a Nimitz, but it will be superior to other western carriers outside of the US and France.

 

[aaaditya]

Whats interesting is that it confirms the Varag is being completed for use as an aircraft carrier, and not an amusement park. Why this was thought to be impossible, I don't know. Engines could be steam, which China has experience in, 4 twinpack Ukainian gas turbines, or even VL diesels of the kind fitted to supertankers, electronics will be cobbled together from existing sources that are already being used on Chins's latest destroyers, self defence, China has the technology, aircraft, brought from Russia, voila. It may not be a Nimitz, but it will be superior to other western carriers outside of the US and France.

i wonder how effective would 30 year old carriers like the gorshkov and the varyag be compared to new build carriers,the older carriers would be more apt to suffer from metal fatigue and have a reduced life than the new ones,i believe that the lifespan of both gorshkov and varyag would at best be another 20 years,carriers unlike combat aircrafts cannot be completely stripped down to give a zero life upgradation.

this raises the most important point ,does china like india have an indigenous aircraft carrier project(for a new build aircraft carrier).

 

[Whiskyjack]

i wonder how effective would 30 year old carriers like the gorshkov and the varyag be compared to new build carriers,the older carriers would be more apt to suffer from metal fatigue and have a reduced life than the new ones,i believe that the lifespan of both gorshkov and varyag would at best be another 20 years,carriers unlike combat aircrafts cannot be completely stripped down to give a zero life upgradation.

this raises the most important point ,does china like india have an indigenous aircraft carrier project(for a new build aircraft carrier).

More a question of how effective the crews will be. Many countries operate a carrier and have a lot of knowledge, training, doctrine etc that goes back decades. China is just starting this process.

 

[tphuang]

i wonder how effective would 30 year old carriers like the gorshkov and the varyag be compared to new build carriers,the older carriers would be more apt to suffer from metal fatigue and have a reduced life than the new ones,i believe that the lifespan of both gorshkov and varyag would at best be another 20 years,carriers unlike combat aircrafts cannot be completely stripped down to give a zero life upgradation.

this raises the most important point ,does china like india have an indigenous aircraft carrier project(for a new build aircraft carrier).

China definitely has its own aircraft carrier project. Varyag is believed by most people to be a training carrier, one that teaches China on carrier operation. Let's face it, even though China may not needed a carrier now, it will need one in the future, you want to get your carrier program started before then.

As for su-33, I think this is expected by most PLAN followers. The interesting thing is what China will do after the first two su-33. Whether it will go for 12 or 48 more su-33. I guess it all depends on how fast China's own naval fighter project is progressing.

 

[icelord]

Does this mean they'll stitch up the Melbourne as well?

Whats interesting is that it confirms the Varag is being completed for use as an aircraft carrier, and not an amusement park.

Was there ever any real doubt, but it may be used for training to get pilots ready for their own Carriers. a year or 2 of training on Varyag before flying off a chinese made carrier. lol, made in china, get it! You get a carrier with every Kids meal

 

[Apocalypse]

What happened to the agreeement with the Ukrainians not to use the Varyag for military purposes ? :vamp
I think China does have a program to produce an indeginous Aircraft Carrier, though it probably in the basic or design stages. If it is almost built, it is probably in secret.
Su-33s are a good aircraft for carrier operations, with a long range and payload, but the only snag is that the Sukhoi is large and bulky. Probably cant fit more than the 12 on Kuznetsov.
How do the Su-33s compare with the Su-30 MKK/Is ? they have only one pilot

 

[LancerMc]

Even if the carriers are 20-30 years old, many carriers during the period were designed to have service lives of 50 years. This would give China enough time to learn about carrier operations while building new carriers for future use.

 

[contedicavour]

The Russian Kutznetsov can operate approx 25 Flankers plus a few Helix helos, though the rare times it has been seen operational it had much less than that aboard.
I agree with assessments that the Varyag will probably not become operational, but it will be the most realistic ever platform on which PLAN pilots will be able to train.
Training navy pilots is hugely difficult. I've read that even India, with a long tradition of aircraft carrier operations, is training its navy pilots in Pensacola. It will be strange to see MIG29Ks flying around Pensacola
I think China's neighbors still have 10-15 years before having to worry of a Chinese operational aircraft carrier.

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

The Russian Kutznetsov can operate approx 25 Flankers plus a few Helix helos, though the rare times it has been seen operational it had much less than that aboard.
I agree with assessments that the Varyag will probably not become operational, but it will be the most realistic ever platform on which PLAN pilots will be able to train.
Training navy pilots is hugely difficult. I've read that even India, with a long tradition of aircraft carrier operations, is training its navy pilots in Pensacola. It will be strange to see MIG29Ks flying around Pensacola
I think China's neighbors still have 10-15 years before having to worry of a Chinese operational aircraft carrier.

cheers

mig 29k's are not yet in service ,indian naval pilots are training on t-45 goshawks and are practicing carrier borne operations.

 

[wp2000]

Well, time flies. I remember in early 2005 we had lengthy discussions about Varyag and China's aircraft carrier ambitions.

I still stick to my original view: Varyag will be a training ship, although the difference between a training carrier and a fully combat ready carrier is really up to any one's guess, because you still need pretty much every thing to train everyone (not just pilots) properly, except some self defense weapon systems.

And one of the reason or observation for my above view is : pay attention to 2008, if everything goes well, the real one should show some traces.


And it is true that Su33 is really not a surprising news. That's the only logical and workable short term solution.
At the same time China will work on domestic solutions as well. Does anyone still remember a post saying a sample Su33 had arrived in China's SAC company?, which produces all the Flanker variants.

 

[qwerty223]

so far I only found that 3 sourses had this news published and the article is identical.
www.watchermagazine.com/?p=6940
sp.rian.ru/onlinenews/20061023/55063565.html
www.kommersant.com/p715509/r_528/China_jet_fighters_export/

 

[LancerMc]

Here a question

If China isn't going to have an operational carrier for another 10-15 years why buy $2.5 Billion dollars of fighter's when they could have bought some carrier capable trainers in stead?

I think China in the next five years will start building a carrier. $2.5 Billion dollars on fighters means you intend on having a carrier sooner then later. If they wanted to start training crews they could have bought Su-25 Carrier trainers.

 

[icelord]

I'm telling you, the carriers are already built, just not revealed yet

 

[contedicavour]

Here a question

If China isn't going to have an operational carrier for another 10-15 years why buy $2.5 Billion dollars of fighter's when they could have bought some carrier capable trainers in stead?

I think China in the next five years will start building a carrier. $2.5 Billion dollars on fighters means you intend on having a carrier sooner then later. If they wanted to start training crews they could have bought Su-25 Carrier trainers.

A carrier takes 8-10 years to build and make fully operational. And that's for a Navy which is accustomed to operating aircraft carriers.
The SU25 is a very bad trainer for SU33s, obsolescent in electronics and without any modern laser guided bombs comparable to Paveways, no BVR missiles, etc. The best way to train pilots (who probably have flown on standard Flankers already) is to train them on the SU33s they'll use one day. After all, you can still use the SU33 from land bases to their fullest potential, so it's no wasted money !

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

I'm telling you, the carriers are already built, just not revealed yet

Hmmm hidden under the Tien an men square or berthed below Pudong district in Shangai ?? nfloorl:

Jokes apart, 300 meter long structures will always be spotted by satellites, there is no way in hell such ships could be hidden from KH12s & similar satellites

cheers

 

[LancerMc]

I know the Su-25 Carrier trainer is a poor choice, but what else would they order. I doubt the U.S. would allow them to buy a T-45.

The idea China has been hiding carriers is absurd. Contedicavour is absolutely correct that there is no way China could hiding a 300 meter ship from view. To hide a ship of that size is extremely difficult, and I believe no nation has ever attempted it nor be succesful in that kind of effort. Intelligence services are probably monitoring the kind of materials to build such a ship.

You can hide the construction of submarine (which China did), but a carrier is completely different. When the US developed the F-117A there were a number of sightings of the aircraft, and other evidence about secret projects. If they were building one there would be evidence everywhere.

 

[kams]

Hmmm hidden under the Tien an men square or berthed below Pudong district in Shangai ?? nfloorl:

Jokes apart, 300 meter long structures will always be spotted by satellites, there is no way in hell such ships could be hidden from KH12s & similar satellites

cheers

To construct a carrier unobserved, one would require a big enclosed dry dock, one capable of holding 60,000 T ship. I don't think China has any.

 

[tphuang]

Here a question

If China isn't going to have an operational carrier for another 10-15 years why buy $2.5 Billion dollars of fighter's when they could have bought some carrier capable trainers in stead?

I think China in the next five years will start building a carrier. $2.5 Billion dollars on fighters means you intend on having a carrier sooner then later. If they wanted to start training crews they could have bought Su-25 Carrier trainers.

It's believed by many people (including myself) that Varyag will be sailing on its own by 2008. If this deal is signed by end of the year, then the first two might be delivered by 2008. Then, they can start testing and training and such.

 

[fsa2000]

in china ,people don't believe this news

i must say ,i hope this message is true ,but now we only know that the varyarg is still in DaLian , nothing appear to show it is ready to be a training ship .we are looking for one day it can go out to the south china sea ,and then , i think it's time we can make sure .