Russia - General Discussion.

[seaspear]

Defining Neo Nazism and its beliefs is an interesting exercise ,there are likely many countries including Australia that have had concerns over these thugs but Russia seemingly is extremely hypocritical in its finger pointing as this article outlines
Russia's long history of neo-Nazis, News, La Trobe University
More information of Russia's use of self-proclaimed Nazis
Nazism emerges in Russia, as Russian neo-Nazis fight in Ukraine - Robert Lansing Institute

 

[ngatimozart]

Last Friday's UN resolution on Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazisim etc etc was a farce.

Yes, Russia proposed this resolution and there are legitimate concerns that it is just cover to justify the invasion. But at the same time, the content of the resolution does not explicitly mention Ukraine and it makes it difficult for a number of countries to vote against it.

Israel voted for it (can't see how could vote against this), allies in Asia who voted for resolutions to condemn Russia voted for it (e.g Philippines, Singapore), while S. Korea and Switzerland abstained.

So what's your point? There are those of us who have a very dim view of Russia because of its actions and we tend to give our reasons for it. There are some who support Russia and give their reasons. So why have you posted this and what are your reasons for posting it?

You have been on here long enough to know the rules. Images etc., require sources to be posted. Please do so.

 

[ngatimozart]

Defining Neo Nazism and its beliefs is an interesting exercise ,there are likely many countries including Australia that have had concerns over these thugs but Russia seemingly is extremely hypocritical in its finger pointing as this article outlines
Russia's long history of neo-Nazis, News, La Trobe University
More information of Russia's use of self-proclaimed Nazis
Nazism emerges in Russia, as Russian neo-Nazis fight in Ukraine - Robert Lansing Institute

Well there are others who are just as dangerous as neo Nazis and they exist on the far left wing of politics. Germany had the Beider Meinhoff gang of the 1970s & 80s, for example. There was the Red Army Faction in Italy, and I think the French may have had one as well. Some in the UK may argue that the IRA and some of the Catholic and Protestant terrorist gangs were left wing or far left too. The US even had one, the Symbionese Liberation Front, from memory. Whilst the far & alt right are perceived as the danger at the moment, the alt and far left is just as dangerous, and I haven't really touched on all the religious and sectarian nutters out there. You've got Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs etc., who are all convinced that their sect is the one true version and everyone else are unclean heathens who should be put to the sword. So we got plenty of nutters to chose from.

 

[koxinga]

My point is:

It is very easy to use a label (e.g Neo Nazism) that is patently evil / wrong and which people can and should condemn and retrospectively reapply it to groups of people like what Russia is doing, which is obviously wrong.

At the same time, it is important (at least for this resolution) not to condemn nations that voted for it, even if they are aware of such ploys.
Nations like Israel vote for it not because they support Russia or is against Ukraine but for the face-value of what this resolution represents.

Anyway, most European nations have some form of far right Nazi supporters at the fringe of political spectrum. But that does not mean they deserve to be invaded or they are a threat to the international community.

Third Committee Approves Eight Draft Resolutions, including Texts on Indigenous Peoples’ Rights, Privacy in Digital Age, Condemning Glorification Of Nazism | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

In a half day of intense action, the Third Committee (Social, Humanitarian and Cultural) approved eight draft resolutions covering a range of human rights issues, from the right to literacy and protection of children from sexual exploitation to matters of crime prevention and criminal justice as...

press.un.org

Amid spirited debate, the Committee approved a draft resolution on combating the glorification of Nazism by a recorded vote of 105 in favour to 52 against, with 15 abstentions, following the approval of an amendment to the draft - proposed by Australia, Japan, Liberia and North Macedonia - by a recorded vote of 63 in favour to 23 against, with 65 abstentions. The draft resolution would have the Assembly express deep concern about the glorification of the Nazi movement, neo-Nazism and former members of the Waffen SS organization, including by erecting monuments and holding public demonstrations in glorification of the Nazi past.

Several delegates took to the floor to express concerns over Moscow’s attempt to exploit the pretext of combating neo-Nazism to justify its brutal war against Ukraine, with Ukraine’s delegate asserting that the draft has nothing in common with the genuine fight against Nazism and neo-Nazism. Echoing his concerns, the United Kingdom’s delegate stressed that the resolution is part of Moscow’s attempt to justify its aggression against Ukraine by furthering lies and distorting history.

The United States’ delegate called the resolution “a cynical attempt” of Moscow to further its geopolitical aims by invoking the Holocaust and Second World War. In the same vein, Australia’s delegate called Moscow’s weaponization of the Holocaust and Nazism unacceptable.

Meanwhile, several delegates disassociated from the amendment, which notes with alarm that the Russian Federation seeks to justify its territorial aggression against Ukraine on the purported basis of eliminating neo-Nazism. Rejecting the amendment, as it politicizes the issue of elimination of racism while introducing a narrow, country-specific approach, the delegate of the Russian Federation said that “this is a thematic resolution, not a country-resolution". In a similar vein, Malaysia’s delegate cautioned that the amendment has shifted the focus of the text away from a thematic resolution to attack specific countries.

Nicaragua’s delegate rejected attempts to politicize the resolution, citing double standards. The delegate of Belarus, recalling that more than 60 million citizens of the anti-Hitler coalition gave their lives to defeat fascism, criticized the amendment as an attempt to erode memory of the victory over fascism

So what's your point? There are those of us who have a very dim view of Russia because of its actions and we tend to give our reasons for it. There are some who support Russia and give their reasons. So why have you posted this and what are your reasons for posting it?

You have been on here long enough to know the rules. Images etc., require sources to be posted. Please do so.

 

[seaspear]

The United Nations back in 2016 put forward this plan to counter violent extremism , this set out guidelines for its implementation
Plan of Action to Prevent Violent Extremism | Office of Counter-Terrorism
plan_action.pdf (un.org)
it's easy to vote on resolutions ,Im not sure how many countries actually tried to put in place the action plan or would want to

 

[Vivendi]

Quick update from the North:

On November 1st the Norwegian armed forces increased the "alert level". Norway raises army alert level in response to Ukraine war – DW – 10/31/2022

The alert level was already increased shortly after the sabotage of the Nord Stream I and II in the Baltic Sea; this comes on top of that. They also refer to this as a "new phase in the operational planning". It affects the whole defense organization. In addition to a shift in activities, resources are also being shifted. Some acquisitions and infrastructure projects are being delayed; others are being accelerated. F-35 test and training flights in the US have been cancelled, to keep staff and planes in Norway. They will also try to expedite deliveries of the P8s. They expect this situation to last for at least one year. Hever den militære beredskapen: – Dette kan vare minst et år

In other news, several drone observations were made close to critical infrastructure, the number of observations increased significantly after the Nord stream sabotage. No drone operators were caught red-handed, to my knowledge. Her har de slått dronealarm: Minst ti meldinger om droner ved ulike olje- og gassanlegg

A few Russians were arrested during October for operating drones in various parts of Norway. Since end of February, Russians are not allowed to operate drones in Norway. Some were also arrested for photographing critical infrastructure including military installations. The last 2 weeks it's been quiet though. Seks russere pågrepet på en uke: – På jakt etter infrastruktur og personer

To russere pågrepet for fotografering av militære anlegg

To russiske statsborgere er tatt av politiet i Nordland. Etter det TV 2 erfarer er de mistenkt for å ha tatt bilder av militære anlegg.

www.tv2.no

 

[Ananda]

Sorry the video is Indonesian, basically saying Russian Presidential advance team already in Bali to asses G20 meeting preparation. However of all invitee both Putin and Zelensky are the ones that has not give confirmation on attending.

Got a feeling (actually feeling in some corner of the market) that both US and China ask each Zelensky and Putin (seperately) for not coming. Both coming will create more distractions. However if both send their second man, the distractions will not that big. Well that's just speculations anyway. If we don't have enough data, market tend to guess.

Anyway:

Russia is sending an ice-breaking tanker of oil to China via the Arctic Circle, opening up a faster route to Asian buyers

The journey means ships could take just half the time to reach China from Russia as usual, as Moscow gets ready for next month's European ban.

markets.businessinsider.com

Using Artic sea line has been in prediction for some time as what Russian aim for. Not only economics make sense to open shorter routes to Asia, but also strategically routes that can be more control by Russia much easier then the current alternatives.

Part of new realities on begining of multipolar world order.

 

[John Fedup]

Sorry the video is Indonesian, basically saying Russian Presidential advance team already in Bali to asses G20 meeting preparation. However of all invitee both Putin and Zelensky are the ones that has not give confirmation on attending.

Got a feeling (actually feeling in some corner of the market) that both US and China ask each Zelensky and Putin (seperately) for not coming. Both coming will create more distractions. However if both send their second man, the distractions will not that big. Well that's just speculations anyway. If we don't have enough data, market tend to guess.

Anyway:

Russia is sending an ice-breaking tanker of oil to China via the Arctic Circle, opening up a faster route to Asian buyers

The journey means ships could take just half the time to reach China from Russia as usual, as Moscow gets ready for next month's European ban.

markets.businessinsider.com

Using Artic sea line has been in prediction for some time as what Russian aim for. Not only economics make sense to open shorter routes to Asia, but also strategically routes that can be more control by Russia much easier then the current alternatives.

Part of new realities on begining of multipolar world order.

Agree, Russia’s icebreaker fleet is second to none and climate warming will allow even more Arctic access.

 

[Ananda]

Tak Hadiri KTT G20 di Bali, Putin Diwakili Menlu Rusia

Presiden Rusia Vladimir Putin dipastikan tidak akan menghadiri acara puncak KTT G20 di Bali. Putin akan diwakili oleh Menlu Sergey Lavrov di KTT G20.

news.detik.com

Putin confirm that he's not attending G20 in Bali, and instead send Lavrov. However he will attend some meeting virtually. Thus seems he will make meeting with some G20 members, potentially those from BRICS and other non collective west. Any potential confrontation with Collective West leaders seems will be handle by Lavrov.

Guess Zelensky also will not take the invitation to come. Seems market guessing that both US and China urges both Zelensky and Putin not come to avoid unneccesary diplomatic row in G20, really doing the trick.

One thing for sure even Jokowi extend invitations and recently just talk with both Putin and Zelensky, they are not coming save a lot off potential diplomatic headache as host.

 

[Vivendi]

Tak Hadiri KTT G20 di Bali, Putin Diwakili Menlu Rusia

Presiden Rusia Vladimir Putin dipastikan tidak akan menghadiri acara puncak KTT G20 di Bali. Putin akan diwakili oleh Menlu Sergey Lavrov di KTT G20.

news.detik.com

Putin confirm that he's not attending G20 in Bali, and instead send Lavrov. However he will attend some meeting virtually. Thus seems he will make meeting with some G20 members, potentially those from BRICS and other non collective west. Any potential confrontation with Collective West leaders seems will be handle by Lavrov.

Guess Zelensky also will not take the invitation to come. Seems market guessing that both US and China urges both Zelensky and Putin not come to avoid unneccesary diplomatic row in G20, really doing the trick.

One thing for sure even Jokowi extend invitations and recently just talk with both Putin and Zelensky, they are not coming save a lot off potential diplomatic headache as host.

It seems now that Putin will skip also attendance by video:

Russian President Vladimir Putin does not plan to address the Group of 20 summit via video, the Kremlin said on Friday.

Asked why Putin was not going to attend the G20 summit in Bali, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said it was related to Putin's schedule and the need to stay in Russia.

Putin not planning video address to G20: Kremlin - Europe - The Jakarta Post

I think this is good news since it indicates that Putin is now struggling quite a lot. Hopefully so much that Russia will soon change its ways and become less aggressive and more open to peaceful co-existence with Russia's neighbors (who have not attacked Russia since end of WW2). Although unfortunately I am not too optimistic. Nevertheless, I hope that during 2023 things will change for the better in Russia.

 

[STURM]

I think this is good news since it indicates that Putin is now struggling quite a lot.

Is it? It could also mean that he sees no value in going which may not have anything to do with him ''struggling quite a lot''.

Nevertheless, I hope that during 2023 things will change for the better in Russia.

Be careful with what you wish because things changing for the ''better'' for Russia may not necessarily be ''better'' for the rest of Europe. People want to believe that getting rid of Putin will usher in an era of change; indeed an era of change but not necessarily an era in which things change for the better.

 

[Vivendi]

Be careful with what you wish because things changing for the ''better'' for Russia may not necessarily be ''better'' for the rest of Europe. People want to believe that getting rid of Putin will usher in an era of change; indeed an era of change but not necessarily an era in which things change for the better.

When I say "better" for Russia the implication is that it will be better also for Russia's neighbors. Not necessarily linked to getting rid of Putin, or who will replace him. If hardliners are replacing Putin things will not become "better" for Russia (even if the hardlines perhaps disagree). Sanctions will still be in place, and Russia will keep losing the war. Things will only get "better" in Russia when they stop the meaningless war in Ukraine.

 

[STURM]

Sanctions will still be in place, and Russia will keep losing the war.

Maybe but Russia ''losing'' the war might not equate with the Ukraine ''winning'' it.... It would be great though if things were as clear cut as you present them.

Things will only get "better" in Russia when they stop the meaningless war in Ukraine.

Things will only get ''better'' when a long list of things occur .... The war in the Ukraine being one of them and not the only one.

 

[Vivendi]

Maybe but Russia ''losing'' the war might not equate with the Ukraine ''winning'' it.... It would be great though if things were as clear cut as you present them.

I was talking about Russia not Ukraine.

Things will only get ''better'' when a long list of things occur .... The war in the Ukraine being one of them and not the only one.

Yes but a large number of those "things" on the "long list" you are referring to, are related to the war in Ukraine -- either directly, or more indirectly.

 

[STURM]

I was talking about Russia not Ukraine.

I was talking about both. At this stage it's hard to see how things can work for Russia but it's still early days and even if Russia loses per see we have no idea how things will turn out for the Ukraine or what the peace will be like. One might hope that things end with Russia seeing the error of its ways and ending the war or as you hope - ''that Russia will soon change its ways and become less aggressive and more open to peaceful co-existence with Russia's neighbors (who have not attacked Russia since end of WW2)''; the Ukraine in turn taking its place amongst the West and slowly but surely rebuilding itself; I'll wait and see how things pan out.

a large number of those "things" on the "long list" you are referring to, are related to the war in Ukraine .

And a quite a bit aren't. Russia has various problems; not all related to the Ukraine and not all which will be fixed if the war in the Ukraine ends.

 

[Vivendi]

I was talking about both. At this stage it's hard to see how things can work for Russia but it's still early days and even if Russia loses per see we have no idea how things will turn out for the Ukraine or what the peace will be like. One might hope that things end with Russia seeing the error of its ways and ending the war or as you hope - ''that Russia will soon change its ways and become less aggressive and more open to peaceful co-existence with Russia's neighbors (who have not attacked Russia since end of WW2)''; the Ukraine in turn taking its place amongst the West and slowly but surely rebuilding itself; I'll wait and see how things pan out.

Yes of course nobody knows how things will work out, I was just expressing hope for a better future. We will have to wait and see how it develops

And a quite a bit aren't. Russia has various problems; not all related to the Ukraine and not all which will be fixed if the war in the Ukraine ends.

Of course, Russia has a lot of problems, but right now it seems a large number of the most critical problems are related to the war in Ukraine.

 

[Ananda]

think this is good news since it indicates that Putin is now struggling quite a lot.

How you can be sure? He still send Lavrov. Base on performance track record, Lavrov is more build for Diplomatic Rows on International forum. Russian knows this is going to be Diplomatics rows in G20 between collective west and Russia over Ukraine. Perhaps that's the reason why Putin send Lavrov, as he has more tempramental suite for diplomatics confrontation compare to Putin.

Personally as Zelensky not coming (Jokowi give him invitation also to balance West critics as he still invite Putin), I see perhaps US work with China to hold Zelensky, while China persuade Putin not coming. Biden already has enough in his laps on his plan talk with Xi in G20. Seems they don't want to find Ukraine - Russia matter add more problem in G20 as 'distraction'.

One thing for sure, Collective West popular oppinion seems hoping Putin being push away. Becarefull of that wish, as the one that replace Putin can potentially coming from more extreme nationalistic sides.

 

[swerve]

And a quite a bit aren't. Russia has various problems; not all related to the Ukraine and not all which will be fixed if the war in the Ukraine ends.

It's probable that one of Putin's reasons for attacking Ukraine was to distract Russians from their country's other problems. Short victorious wars tend to boost the popularity of the leader who started them.

Remember that Putin's problems aren't necessarily Russia's problems.

 

[STURM]

It's probable that one of Putin's reasons for attacking Ukraine was to distract Russians from their country's other problems.

You think so? Maybe. As it stands quite a number of Russians may not be fans of Putin but doesn't mean they don't see NATO as a threat or Russia being backed into a corner by a NATO which has been expanding closer and closer to Russia's borders. Ironically if the war worsens we might actually see more Russians supportive of it; based on the "my country ; right or wrong" reasoning.

Personally I think the main reason he invaded had to with his perspective of things and the urgency as he saw it; rather than the need to distract ordinary Russians.

 

[swerve]

Yes, I do believe it. One of his reasons. Another one is probably his desire to leave a legacy, & going some way towards re-establishing the Russian empire (albeit without a tsar) is something he's said he wants.

If he imagined that invading Ukraine was a rational response to a threat from NATO then he's barking mad. If he wanted NATO away from his borders then he should have been nice to Ukraine - & Georgia, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Finland & Sweden. Threaten people who have a big friendly neighbour, & their logical response is to ask the neighbour for help. Be friendly & helpful, & they don't.

He's managed to drive Finland & Sweden into NATO's arms, increase NATO military spending (especially in the countries closest to Russia), & cause NATO countries further away from Russia to increase their aid to the small NATO members on his borders. That was entirely predictable. Only a fool or a madman would not have seen that it was, at the least, a possible response, & any reasoned analysis should have told him it was a likely response.