Russia Arms Purchase: French Mistral or Spanish/Netherlands Rotterdam

[swerve]

.. Could you possibly modify the Mistral's being built to handle VSTOL aircraft. Whether this be an export version of an AV-8B or F-35, or newly designed craft, could it happen and would it be economical? Proboly very unlikely, but it came to my head and I thought I would throw it out there.

Harrier is out of production, & not available for any future STOVL carrier.

Mistral is a bit too small to be a useful F-35B carrier, & rather slow for a carrier. The hull is designed for maximum volume, for maximum cargo capacity: good for an amphib, but not optimal for a carrier.

Turning it into a STOVL carrier would require modifications to the lifts, strengthening of the deck, & installing a ski-lift. It would mean a significant redesign. Might be easier to start from scratch, & you'd get a better carrier if you did.

 

[Feanor]

You're true here. However, Russia's other amphibious assault ships in its Black Sea Fleet aren't as capable as the Mistral for landings. Their range is smaller, displacement is less, and capacity (for vehicles) is less. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the Mistral can help out a little more. Nevertheless, a difference between 10 APCs or a Platoon of soldiers may not matter that much.

A single Mistral would not have made a critical difference in terms of troops carried. It would have, however, made a critical difference in C4I for the whole operation. Hence why I'm inferring that the statement may not be directly contradictory, but simply prone to misinterpretation.

This just came to my head and is a little "out there." Could you possibly modify the Mistral's being built to handle VSTOL aircraft. Whether this be an export version of an AV-8B or F-35, or newly designed craft, could it happen and would it be economical? Proboly very unlikely, but it came to my head and I thought I would throw it out there.

Lack of any current Russian VTOL projects makes this highly unlikely. There is no budget, and very little conceptual work being done in the area. In short, there is no aircraft available for the VMF to use in that role. Certainly no budget.

Why don't Russia build their own amphibious assault ships instead? With their ability in building aircraft carrier, it shouldn't be that hard and they to pay for it, they can setup a joint venture with India or China, I am quite sure they will be interested.

Money and time. The amount of time and money required to develop domestic alternatives is too great. At least that's the line we've been given. In reality the Mistrals will for a large part be built in Russia. That, and that the reliability of Russian shipyards in large scale projects is questionable. It's my impression that the purpose of the Mistral purchase is only partially to full fill the needs of the VMF. The other purpose is to send a sign to domestic industry to shape up, as well as provide them with an opportunity to still profit form the contract, and gain major experience in the area, especially in meeting deadlines and quality standards.

 

[Feanor]

Allegedly the Mistral will be purchased with it's full electronic components, including combat and navigation systems. It will have to have the height of the hangar deck raised to accomodate Russian helicopters, and the sides strengthened so it can be used in the Arctic Ocean. Allegedly the deal includes full ToT, and the third ship will be built completely in Russia.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ðîññèÿ êóïèò Mistral ñ ôðàíöóçñêîé "íà÷èíêîé", íî îñíàñòèò ñâîèì îðóæèåì è âåðòîëåòàìè

I have to once again wonder about the vague wording. Will the SENIT be included or not....

 

[joanieQ]

I agree with you!!! French Mistral is the better ship..

The French Mistral is the better ship...

I agree with you!!! French Mistral is the better ship..

 

[BronzePlaque]

I agree with you!!! French Mistral is the better ship..

I think its not about being better..What matters is the balance between the cost , availability in the market, timing and needs of the buyer country

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

French warships for Russia to be armed with Ka-52 helicopters

RIA Novosti

16:07 14/08/2010

MOSCOW, August 14 (RIA Novosti) - Mistral-class helicopter carriers, which Russia plans to buy from France, will be armed with Russian Ka-52 Alligator helicopters, Air Force Commander Colonel General Alexander Zelin told the Ekho Moskvy FM station on Saturday.

He emphasized that the Ka-52 Alligator helicopters are very advanced and are equal to best foreign models.

The Ka-52 is armed with 30-mm cannon, Vikhr (Whirlwind) laser guided missiles, rockets, including S-24s, as well as bombs.

The Ka-52 is a modification of the basic Ka-50 Hokum model. The development of the Ka-52 started in 1994 in Russia, but its serial production began only in 2008.

The helicopter is also equipped with two radars, one for ground and one for aerial targets and a Samshite nighttime-daytime thermal sighting system.

Russia is negotiating the purchase of at least one French-built Mistral-class amphibious assault ship and plans to build three more vessels of the same class in partnership with the French naval shipbuilder DCNS.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 armored vehicles including 13 battle tanks, and 450 personnel.

The Russian military has said it plans to use Mistral ships in its Northern and Pacific fleets.

Many Russian military and industry experts have questioned the financial and military sense of the purchase, and some believe that Russia simply wants to gain access to advanced naval technology that could be used in the future in potential conflicts with NATO and its allies.

In April, the head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, Mikhail Dmitriev, said the Mistral deal would be concluded by the end of the year.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

France unfazed by Russian tender, Mistral talks ongoing

RIA Novosti

15:47 20/08/2010

PARIS, August 20 (RIA Novosti) - Paris is continuing negotiations with Moscow on the purchase of a Mistral-class warship and is not concerned about Russia's decision to call a tender for the construction of two helicopter carriers, a spokeswoman for the French presidential administration said on Friday.

"France has no cause for concern over the current developments and negotiations are ongoing," she said.

Russia is holding talks with France on the purchase of Mistral-class warships on a 2+2 scheme whereby Russia will buy one or two French-built Mistrals and build another two under license at home.

The presidential spokeswoman said the Elysee Palace would not comment on the possibility of France participating in the Russian tender.

Earlier on Friday, Russian Defense Minister Serdyukov said the ministry had announced an international tender for the construction of two amphibious assault ships.

He said the Mistral manufacturer could participate in the tender, which will take place in September.

The results of the tender will be announced before the end of the year.

On Thursday, business daily Kommersant said Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) was set to bid with three shipyards including Zvezda Shipbuilding Company in the Russian Far East, St. Petersburg's Admiralteyskiye Verfi shipyard and the Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad.

At the end of August, a French delegation is expected to visit the Yantar shipyard to look into the possibility of building Mistral-class ships there.

 

[harryriedl]

The plot thinkers. Thought this was almost a done deal and now their an open tender, won't all the western Amphibious ship all suffer the same issue of the combat systems
Aug 20/10: Russia’s amphibious ship purchase becomes an open tender competition, assuming that other governments allows their shipbuilders to participate. Ouest France reports that the key sticking point was France’s refusal to include the Mistral’s combat system and NATO C4I systems.

Navantia makes the Spanish BPE, and its counterpart the Canberra Class LHD for Australia. It’s larger than the Mistral, and features a “ski jump” on deck that can help it launch fixed wing UAVs and short or vertical takeoff fighters. Russia’s neighbors would likely consider it even more destabilizing than the Mistral Class, but Spain’s commitment to NATO has never been strong, and the country currently faces depression-level unemployment. Political interference will probably be low, but the combat and C4I systems could easily become the subject of pressure from other NATO states, and Navantia’s dependence on exports within NATO would give that pressure weight.

Damen Schelde makes a slightly different kind of ship with a much more conventional profile, but its Rotterdam/ Johann de Witt Class LPDs are considered to be excellent examples of their type, and very good value for money. The firm also worked with BAE on the UK Royal Navy’s new Bay Class LSDs. These “Enforcer Series” ships are all smaller than Mistral, but the firm is also designing a 28,000t Zuiderkruis Class Joint Support Ship. Political approval may be an issue with the Dutch, however; their Parliament is divided, weapons exports are challenged, and Russia’s invasion of Georgia did not sit well there.

Other contenders may include Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and their MHD 200 LPH (Landing Platform, Helicopter) concept. Time will tell. See Defense News | Information Dissemination | Ouest France [in French] | Reuters.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Russia-to-Order-French-Mistral-LHDs-05749/

 

[Feanor]

It looks like SENIT will be included in the purches. Russian press refers to БИУС being sold with the ship, which in the case of the Mistral means the SENIT.

«МИСТРÐЛЬ» И ЕГО СОБРÐТЬЯ : Военно-промышленный курьер

The airwing is supposedly Ka-27/29 (no surprise) and Ka-52, as has already been theorized. And while this is supposedly an open tender, the French negotiations are continuing alongside with it.

 

[Wall83]

The winner of the tender is France with the Mistral class. First payment from Russia will happen in january 2011 and the first ship is expected to be built within 36 months after this.


Russia opts for French Mistral-class warships for its Navy (WRAPUP) | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Jaimito]

Have to note also that the Scomba, Navantia-Spanish armada combat system for surface ships or partially subs, is partially a tech transfer from Aegis Management Baseline 7 on hardware and software, and it is the one designed originally for the Spanish Lhd. Compared to Mistral combat system.

 

[Feanor]

Lenta.ru, quoting Vedomosti "Ведомости" claims that the SENIT 9 will be sold with the Mistrals, but without the codes or a license. It's unclear whether the license refers to a production license or something else.

http://lenta.ru/articles/2010/12/27/mistral/

EDIT: The price for the two ships built in France is 1.37 bln EU, with 20% of the first and 40% of the second components to be built in Russia.

http://lenta.ru/news/2010/12/30/mistral/