Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[htbrst]

The NZ prime minister did get very up close and personal with the Wildcat last week as shown in this reel from the UK PM

30K views · 1.2K reactions | PM Keir Starmer and PM Christopher Luxon on a joint visit | The UK and New Zealand stand together to protect our national security, stepping up our defence spending and putting Ukraine in the strongest possible... | By Keir Starmer | Facebook

 

[ngatimozart]

The Bell 412 ASW won't make the final list because for the last ten years any military aviation platform being acquired has to:

• Currently be in service with one of our FVEY partners, and
• Be a mature platform.

The Bell 412 fails on the first requirement.

There are be four platforms that will be given serious consideration and two of these will make the final list because they meet the policy requirements.

• Airbus NH90 NFH
• Leonardo AW159 Wildcat
• LM Sikorsky MH-60R
• LM Sikorsky S-92M (CH-148) Cyclone

My pick for the two finalists are the Airbus NH90 NFH and the LM Sikorsky MH-60R. Both offer compatibility and commonality but in different aspects.

1. The NH90 NFH offers compatibility and commonality with an existing platform already in service with NZDF - the NH90TTH. This means that we don't need to stand up a separate maintenance system and logistics chain. It also reduces the NZDF to two helicopter types in its fleet instead of three, thus producing financial savings.
2. The MH-60R offers compatibility and commonality with the RAN and the USN, something that should not be undervalued. However it requires the maintenance of three different helicopter types in the NZDF fleet.

If the NH90 NFH is selected then it won't be able to operate off the OPVs, but that is really neither here nor there. We have the option of acquiring more AW109s to operate off the likes of the OPVs and there are marinised variants of it fitted with sea search radars and I/O turrets available.

Whilst shipboard UAVs are good they are not the be all to end all that some posters appear to think. They do have their weaknesses which are daily being clearly illustrated by both sides in the Russo-Ukrainian War. When used in the right circumstances they are good, however they are susceptible to EW, especially GPS spoofing and RF interference and denial.

 

[Pusser01]

The Bell 412 ASW won't make the final list because for the last ten years any military aviation platform being acquired has to:

• Currently be in service with one of our FVEY partners, and
• Be a mature platform.

The Bell 412 fails on the first requirement.

There are be four platforms that will be given serious consideration and two of these will make the final list because they meet the policy requirements.

• Airbus NH90 NFH
• Leonardo AW159 Wildcat
• LM Sikorsky MH-60R
• LM Sikorsky S-92M (CH-148) Cyclone

My pick for the two finalists are the Airbus NH90 NFH and the LM Sikorsky MH-60R. Both offer compatibility and commonality but in different aspects.

1. The NH90 NFH offers compatibility and commonality with an existing platform already in service with NZDF - the NH90TTH. This means that we don't need to stand up a separate maintenance system and logistics chain. It also reduces the NZDF to two helicopter types in its fleet instead of three, thus producing financial savings.
2. The MH-60R offers compatibility and commonality with the RAN and the USN, something that should not be undervalued. However it requires the maintenance of three different helicopter types in the NZDF fleet.

I seem to remember that the RAN conducted a test fit on an Anzac of the NH90 when it was in the running for the S-70B replacement. I recall it did fit but was tight, it would have limited the maintenance work that could be conducted at sea. Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

I seem to remember that the RAN conducted a test fit on an Anzac of the NH90 when it was in the running for the S-70B replacement. I recall it did fit but was tight, it would have limited the maintenance work that could be conducted at sea. Cheers[/list]

I recall the same, including the specific colourful language to describe fitting an NH90-type helicopter into an ANZAC-class frigate hangar as, "not enough room to swing a bee's d*ck..."

My takeaway from that was that the NFH90 could not realistically operate from the ANZAC-class frigates which would mean that the only RNZN vessels which would be able to operate naval helicopters would be HMNZS's Canterbury and Aotearoa. Not sure if Aotearoa has an onboard hangar magazine or not, but IIRC Canterbury does not. This would drastically limit the potential usefulness of any embarked naval helicopters and at least with respect to Canterbury, only provide a useful capability if/when Canterbury is accompanied by frigates. The likely sensor, comms and CMS fitout aboard Canterbury likely does not support use of helicopter datalinks. Not that Canterbury could accomplish much whilst armed with M2 HMG's and a 25 mm M242 Bushmaster.

 

[StevoJH]

I recall the same, including the specific colourful language to describe fitting an NH90-type helicopter into an ANZAC-class frigate hangar as, "not enough room to swing a bee's d*ck..."

My takeaway from that was that the NFH90 could not realistically operate from the ANZAC-class frigates which would mean that the only RNZN vessels which would be able to operate naval helicopters would be HMNZS's Canterbury and Aotearoa. Not sure if Aotearoa has an onboard hangar magazine or not, but IIRC Canterbury does not. This would drastically limit the potential usefulness of any embarked naval helicopters and at least with respect to Canterbury, only provide a useful capability if/when Canterbury is accompanied by frigates. The likely sensor, comms and CMS fitout aboard Canterbury likely does not support use of helicopter datalinks. Not that Canterbury could accomplish much whilst armed with M2 HMG's and a 25 mm M242 Bushmaster.

NFH-90 doesn't make sense unless you are going to order new frigates pretty much right now.

And if you order new Frigates, that opens up many options, including the Rolls Royce of ASW Helicopters. The AW101 Merlin or CH-148 Cyclone.

 

[Todjaeger]

NFH-90 doesn't make sense unless you are going to order new frigates pretty much right now.

And if you order new Frigates, that opens up many options, including the Rolls Royce of ASW Helicopters. The AW101 Merlin or CH-148 Cyclone.

TBH I rather doubt that NZ could get new/replacement frigates into service fast enough, even if they ordered them today, to be worth going down the NFH90 path. The SH-2G(I) Super Seasprites really need to be replaced within the next few years which is what gov't intends. However, right now the replacement frigates are not expected into Kiwi service for about a decade which means there could easily be a five+ year gap where NZ is not able to operate naval helicopters as embarked naval helicopters due to lacking appropriate vessels to embark naval helicopters on.

 

[spoz]

From memory of the Australian assessment of the NFH vs the Romeo, admittedly quite a few years ago now (20!) the NFH have considerable differences from the TTH. Avionics, auto blade fold, extra stiffening, some engine mods. There would of course be some commonality, but possibly not as much as might be thought at first glance.

 

[Catalina]

Will be interesting process and only time will tell.

Thank you for sharing your insights and thoughts on the possible helicopter options.

 

[ngatimozart]

I seem to remember that the RAN conducted a test fit on an Anzac of the NH90 when it was in the running for the S-70B replacement. I recall it did fit but was tight, it would have limited the maintenance work that could be conducted at sea. Cheers

Do you know if the Anzac Class flight deck is rated for 11 tonne helos?

 

[ngatimozart]

NFH-90 doesn't make sense unless you are going to order new frigates pretty much right now.

And if you order new Frigates, that opens up many options, including the Rolls Royce of ASW Helicopters. The AW101 Merlin or CH-148 Cyclone.

The AW101 Merlin won't be selected because when the NH90TTH was selected, the AW101 was seen as expensive to operate and it didn't have the external load capability required. I suspect that the cost alone will be against it this time around. The CH-148 Cyclone will be seen as risky. Again when the NH90TTH was selected, that S-92M was seen as expensive to operate.

 

[spoz]

Do you know if the Anzac Class flight deck is rated for 11 tonne helos?

Yes, at least for the RAN. It was the fit in the hangar that was the problem.

 

[kiwi in exile]

The likely contenders (wildcat, NFH90, Romeo) have all been considered as seasprite replacements before so some of the groundwork has allready been done.

In the MOD Major Projects Report 2015, the AW159 was also evaluated alongside the SH-2G(I). It was noted that the Wildcat met or exceeded all user and operational requirements, it benefitted from its fully integrated avionics system, and it was expected to be cheaper to maintain than the Seasprite.

New Zealand’s future maritime helicopter options. Line of Defence - Spring 2020

My thoughts:
Romeo is the likely contender with interoperability the key. The ability to seamlessly be able to be part of a pacific coalition information network and logistics train will be key in the new strategic environment. US, Aus, India Japan & RoK. Out helos could operate from our allies ships and vice versa. Romeo comes ready for hellfires and APKWS which while limited in over water scenarios would offer a great CAS capability for amphibious operations.

I like the internal cargo capacity of he NFH90- this would ad versatitity to our embarked helo. Personally I think its the best looking. 1-2 marinised transport versions for canterbury and Aotearoa, perhaps with the old sprites EO/IR wouldn't go astray.

Wildcat ticks all boxes aside from 'greatest interoperability' and may be cheapest to aquire and operate as above.
Leonardo and New Zealand industry sign MoU for nation's Maritime Helicopter Replacement programme

 

[John Fedup]

The AW101 Merlin won't be selected because when the NH90TTH was selected, the AW101 was seen as expensive to operate and it didn't have the external load capability required. I suspect that the cost alone will be against it this time around. The CH-148 Cyclone will be seen as risky. Again when the NH90TTH was selected, that S-92M was seen as expensive to operate.

I believe the CH-148 also ended up with larger engines so more fuel compared to what the S-92M had back when the evaluation took place. As for risk, NZ seems to have the NH-90 performing well. After years of development the CH-148 seems to be ok and it is the most modern and largest in its class. Buy some River class ships and ask for free CH-148s with each ship.

 

[recce.k1]

The likely contenders (wildcat, NFH90, Romeo) have all been considered as seasprite replacements before so some of the groundwork has allready been done.


New Zealand’s future maritime helicopter options. Line of Defence - Spring 2020

My thoughts:
Romeo is the likely contender with interoperability the key. The ability to seamlessly be able to be part of a pacific coalition information network and logistics train will be key in the new strategic environment. US, Aus, India Japan & RoK. Out helos could operate from our allies ships and vice versa. Romeo comes ready for hellfires and APKWS which while limited in over water scenarios would offer a great CAS capability for amphibious operations.

I like the internal cargo capacity of he NFH90- this would ad versatitity to our embarked helo. Personally I think its the best looking. 1-2 marinised transport versions for canterbury and Aotearoa, perhaps with the old sprites EO/IR wouldn't go astray.

Wildcat ticks all boxes aside from 'greatest interoperability' and may be cheapest to aquire and operate as above.
Leonardo and New Zealand industry sign MoU for nation's Maritime Helicopter Replacement programme

Nice write up and concur. From an article published today, some further perspectives in a similar vein.

Firstly on cost:

The $2b price tag will cover the capital cost of five new helicopters, its associated hardware, and operational and crew costs for the coming four years.

On the AW159:

Among these was Leonardo, which pitches its Wildcat helicopter as not only combat-proven and capable, but a “major opportunity” to strengthen New Zealand’s defence relationship with the UK.

A spokesperson for the manufacturer said this week the Wildcat would be a “better fit” with the navy’s frigates than the alternatives, in part due to its smaller size. Leonardo has since 2023 signed agreements with New Zealand firms that could become a domestic industry to service the helicopters.

Kudos to Leonardo for proposing a local servicing hub. But I wonder how busy they will be servicing (only) 5 Naval airframes and (only) the 5 existing Air Force AW109's to justify the establishment costs and to sustain the business? Be curious if they have other ideas in mind to help support this (eg civil helicopter servicing or developing and supporting new uncrewed aerial technologies etc)?

I do also wonder that the AW159 is at the end of its production run (unless perhaps UK Gov orders more?), which may carry risk as we have seen with Seasprite. Granted Leonardo make and sell many other popular helo types but at this point in time there is no indication that NZDF will be acquiring any of them. At least though they will be in service with the RN/RAF for a while (providing some synergies) but it also means NZ may be locked in to their replacement timeframes which IIRC(?) may not be as "long term" as NZ would like? I also wonder about the electronics fit-out and weapon capabilities, which are excellent, but European centric (in terms of limited or nil interoperability within our region).

On the Seahawk:

A Sikorsky spokesperson said the company would continue to support the US navy with discussions with New Zealand over a potential sale of the helicopter, which offered “the lowest cost per flight hour” of such maritime helicopters, at $10,000 NZD an hour.

More than 340 Seahawks were being flown across the world, according to the firm, and the fleet operated by Australia, that will be 36-strong by the end of 2026, would offer New Zealand “synergies”.

It would “not only reduce the overall cost of ownership, but also allow New Zealand to bring its [Seahawks] into service more rapidly.

“Should a regional conflict create a contested logistics environment in the Indo-Pacific, the partnership with Australia would provide a local resource for continued operation.”

Some compelling reasons eg low operating costs and that spare parts (and presumably major servicing) can be obtained from "across the ditch".

On the NFH90:

Nonetheless, Airbus NHIndustries President Axel Aloccio said, in a statement, the helicopter best met New Zealand’s needs as it had a greater range than the Seasprite, was all-weather and therefore usable in the Southern Ocean, and unlike others had an emergency floatation system.

New Zealand’s existing tooling, stock of spare parts, and knowledge and training of the NH90 helicopter would mean “significant economies of scale”, Aloccio said.

Again some compelling points. On a tangent (i.e. as not being a primary justification for acquiring the type) I think the emergency flotation system is a good idea, after all it appeared to save the crew of the first ADF MRH90 incident, that "ditched" a couple of years ago. Seems logical to have such a system for a maritime helo, surely. But again like the AW159 the weapons fit out, whilst again excellent and covering greater breadth, may also be European centric unless NZ funds integration of US weapon systems and sensors. Also would NZ potentially be the last user to acquire the type i.e. is there any other interest from other nations? Finally there are concerns here that the type may be too big for the ANZAC's hanger, as per RAN trial experiences in the past, so it will interesting to see how Airbus and NZDF mitigate this (presumably there must be some initial assessment of this for Airbus to be confident in submitting their type)?

The Post

www.thepost.co.nz

 

[Stampede]

The helicopter purchase will be governed by the ships purchased.
Thenumbers and mission set.

A lot of talk about replacing the two Anzac class vessels with a frigate.
All well and good then get a medium sized helicopter with the attributes of a Romeo.

Maybe some consideration should be given to the possibility that NZ may replace the frigates with a true ocean going off shore patrol vessel.
Not a combatant with ASW and SAM capabilities
A ship for robust constabulary work suitable for the broard range of sea states required including the southern ocean.

A cheaper less capable vessel but acquired in greater numbers.

Maybe five or six for a future fleet of these OPVs , supply ship and two Amphibs

What type of helicopter and in what numbers would suit such a fleet

The thing is ,looking at the RNZN over the decades it never seems to get the balance and numbers right.

So whatever the future fleet looks like it need to be realistic!

That needs to be a commitment for the next 20 to 30 years

Regards S

 

[Todjaeger]

The helicopter purchase will be governed by the ships purchased.
Thenumbers and mission set.

A lot of talk about replacing the two Anzac class vessels with a frigate.
All well and good then get a medium sized helicopter with the attributes of a Romeo.

Maybe some consideration should be given to the possibility that NZ may replace the frigates with a true ocean going off shore patrol vessel.
Not a combatant with ASW and SAM capabilities
A ship for robust constabulary work suitable for the broard range of sea states required including the southern ocean.

A cheaper less capable vessel but acquired in greater numbers.

Maybe five or six for a future fleet of these OPVs , supply ship and two Amphibs

What type of helicopter and in what numbers would suit such a fleet

The thing is ,looking at the RNZN over the decades it never seems to get the balance and numbers right.

So whatever the future fleet looks like it need to be realistic!

That needs to be a commitment for the next 20 to 30 years

Regards S

TBH If NZ were to decide to replace the frigates with more OPV's then the RNZN would lose all relevance since it would no longer be able to operate in anything more hazardous than a constabulary role. Depending on the area in question, even anti-piracy ops could be beyond the RNZN's capability.

Given that the world does seem headed towards more conflict, then it does not seem wise to opt for new/replacement vessels that would be unable to protect themselves against likely threats. A half-dozen OPV's conducting EEZ patrols around NZ is all well and good, but they would be of no help in getting Kiwi goods to the Med or Europe, or getting Euro goods to NZ despite piracy and/or land-based AShM.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes, at least for the RAN. It was the fit in the hangar that was the problem.

Thanks. The NH90 all up weight is 11 tonnes plus change. If the NH90 NFH is selected, they might be able to do a work around WRT the hangar until the Anzac replacement enter service.

 

[Stampede]

TBH If NZ were to decide to replace the frigates with more OPV's then the RNZN would lose all relevance since it would no longer be able to operate in anything more hazardous than a constabulary role. Depending on the area in question, even anti-piracy ops could be beyond the RNZN's capability.

Given that the world does seem headed towards more conflict, then it does not seem wise to opt for new/replacement vessels that would be unable to protect themselves against likely threats. A half-dozen OPV's conducting EEZ patrols around NZ is all well and good, but they would be of no help in getting Kiwi goods to the Med or Europe, or getting Euro goods to NZ despite piracy and/or land-based AShM.

I don’t disagree

But defence purchase history does not look favourable for the type of fleet many would desire for NZ going forward.

To flip the question

SEA 3000 is to provide the RAN with a true tier two warship.
A ship that can conduct a response to the broad range of threats in the maritime sphere currently on , under and above the water.

It can conduct an independent response up to a certain level of threat and more realistically be integrated within the protective umbrella of a task force
Entering harms way!!!

I’d suggest this would be the minimum warship size for any nation wanting a true combatant and three would be the minimum number to offer a realistic option to government for a maritime response to a threat.

The question is ,does anyone realistically see NZ committing to three such quality ships fully fitted to spec with no compromise's.

An investment in three such ships , plus the other needs of a balanced Navy.
Plus the needs of Army and Airforce.

I just don’t see it happening, so what’s the realistic alternative???

A repeat of the ANZACs. Two vessels with limited fit out and corresponding limited capacity!!!

I hope not.

Whatever path NZ takes , do it right.
Even if your aspirations are modest.

Hence 5 or 6 good quality ocean going OPVs.
3000t, medium helicopter and hangar with medium calibre canon up front, plus a flexi bay for many roles.
Similar to what many navy’s and coast guards operate

Not a warship,but still a good asset for many roles

Cheers S

 

[Todjaeger]

I don’t disagree

But defence purchase history does not look favourable for the type of fleet many would desire for NZ going forward.

To flip the question

SEA 3000 is to provide the RAN with a true tier two warship.
A ship that can conduct a response to the broad range of threats in the maritime sphere currently on , under and above the water.

It can conduct an independent response up to a certain level of threat and more realistically be integrated within the protective umbrella of a task force
Entering harms way!!!

I’d suggest this would be the minimum warship size for any nation wanting a true combatant and three would be the minimum number to offer a realistic option to government for a maritime response to a threat.

The question is ,does anyone realistically see NZ committing to three such quality ships fully fitted to spec with no compromise's.

An investment in three such ships , plus the other needs of a balanced Navy.
Plus the needs of Army and Airforce.

I just don’t see it happening, so what’s the realistic alternative???

A repeat of the ANZACs. Two vessels with limited fit out and corresponding limited capacity!!!

I hope not.

Whatever path NZ takes , do it right.
Even if your aspirations are modest.

Hence 5 or 6 good quality ocean going OPVs.
3000t, medium helicopter and hangar with medium calibre canon up front, plus a flexi bay for many roles.
Similar to what many navy’s and coast guards operate

Not a warship,but still a good asset for many roles

Cheers S

As I see it, an OPV works if it is a platform asset used to cover constab/patrolling duties without the costs associated with a proper warship and the nation in question already has the warship needs covered. Otherwise, an OPV could work if the nation is itself relatively small/of minor importance and is also essentially non-aligned so that there would be minimal need for naval combatants.

If NZ wants to and is fine with being non-aligned, as well as going to be getting ignored then OPV's in lieu of frigates could make sense.

However, if NZ wants to be able to deploy the NZDF alongside Australia, the US, UK and many other nations, NZ needs to ensure that the NZDF is appropriately kitted out and trained. Trying to contribute an OPV to a naval TF where aerial, surface or sub-surface threats might be faced would actually detract from the TF. That is also ignoring how irrelevant OPV's would be if a hostile actor decided to directly threaten NZ shipping and facilities from within the Kiwi EEZ.

 

[Xthenaki]

Absolutely agree with you. We need to sort out and implement our core component (I see as a three frigate minimum) and then move on from there. The GOTD have stated that they will maintain the two ANZAC frigates into the 2030,s and I fear that they will struggle to keep them going. It is probable that we will await the ADFs decision on what GP frigate they have settled on. Once our frigate numbers and choices have been made we can move into support with other classes of vessels and expand our navy. New funding needs to bolster new frigate expansion first.