Stumbled on this...if you search for 'Edda Fonn' you'll see her referred to on page 10. It shows 'D', which must surely be diameter, at 19.5 metres.
https://www.helidecks.org/download files/HLL - Part D - Mobiles.pdf
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Stumbled on this...if you search for 'Edda Fonn' you'll see her referred to on page 10. It shows 'D', which must surely be diameter, at 19.5 metres.
https://www.helidecks.org/download files/HLL - Part D - Mobiles.pdf
No embarkation, end of story! It will only operate choppers brought to theatre by other means (sea or air) this could even include any suitable land based civvy choppers in cases of HADR ops, if pilots are considered certified to do so. The photos show she doesn't have any auto 'fastening' for choppers to engage with so she won't do underway flight ops, she'll be stationary. At a pinch she could store one on the work area on the stern if well wrapped and could be craned off onto a wharf...but I put money on RNZN not planning this strategy.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Thanks for the research too, look like it's up to the job then judging by those dimensions you gave earlier.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
No where in the original LOSC specs or in the information provided in numerous open source web pages was this vessel to ever embark her own helicopter. It was to be capable of having a helicopter land and takeoff and provide vertrep. It was also to support an unspecified RPAS.
This is not a warship. This is a vessel to support military and government operations.
Hopefully decisions will be forthcoming on the type and numbers of RPAS to be made available for this platform and others within the RNZN before the ships are retired.
This is not a warship. This is a vessel to support military and government operations.
Hopefully decisions will be forthcoming on the type and numbers of RPAS to be made available for this platform and others within the RNZN before the ships are retired.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Well if we were to class any navy ship with a hanger as a warship, I suppose that means the two Opv, Canterbury, and Aotearoa are warships too? I wouldn't really class a lightly armed patrol vessel or logistics support as a warship,as they have no chance of defending themselves in a war zone, by themselves.
Any vessel that sails under the white ensign (Commonwealth navies) are classified as a warship, regardless of it's capabilities, and in times of war are legitimate targets. The only exception are hospital ships which must be painted white, are to clearly exhibit and illuminate red cross and / or red crescent markings, are not legitimate targets, are not to be attacked, and are not to be utilised for any ruse d' guerre.
I have an inkling that when RNZN vessels identify themselves to other parties they start the comms with 'This is New Zealand warship <ships name>'.. without the 'HMNZS' - is this the case? If so I guess it's a commonwealth practice, if not global!?!
Yep if it's locally it's ""This is warship XXX ... "or in foreign climes, "This is New Zealand warship XXXX ... ".
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
That is correct - the LOSC was supposed to be capable of lily-padding anything up to NH90 -size. But embarking a helicopter was never on the cards.
Reading between the lines, one of the key drivers was the need to be able to rapidly evacuate injured personnel, including divers. That fits in with the rescue and recovery part of it's role.
Catalina
Active Member
NEW ZEALAND UNDER NAVAL ATTACK - KIA, POW, SUNK
Good morning all. Further to the research for the book New Zealand Under Naval Attack - past, present and future, any thoughts and further information regarding the following data of casualties inflicted by hostile navies in New Zealand waters would be most appreciated thank you.
Yours aye
SUNK VESSELS: 11. Wairuna, Winslow, SS Port Kembla, Pearl, Moa, SS Wimmera, RMS Niagara, Turakina, Holmwood, RMS Rangitane, HMNZS Puriri.
World War One
170617 Wairuna a 3,950 ton steamer sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 17 June 1917. 42 taken prisoner.
170622 Winslow sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 22 June 1917. 15 crew taken prisoner.
170918 SS Port Kembla (1910) a 4,700 ton steamer carrying lead and frozen meat for England was sunk on 18 September 1917 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf off Farewell Spit. Crew of 50 evacuated on life boats picked up by the steamer Reglus later that day.
171213 Pearl, a motorboat, captured by Count Von Luckner at Motuihe Island on 13 December 2017.
171213 Moa, a 127 ton scow, captured by Count Von Luckner at Red Mecury Island on 13 December 2017. 6 crew and one child taken prisoner.
180626 SS Wimmera a 3,022 ton passenger steamer sunk on 26 June 1918 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf north of Cape Maria van Diemen. 16 killed.
190621 3 men killed pulling a mine ashore at the Port of Waikato on 21 June 1919.
World War Two
400619 RMS Niagara a 13,415 ton ocean liner sunk by Orion's mine on 19 June 1940. Carrying 590 ingots of gold. Five 12.4 kg ignots remaining. 336 passengers and crew escape in lifeboats.
400820 Turakina a 8,706 ton merchant ship sunk by Orion on 20 August 1940. 34 killed. 20 taken prison.
401125 Holmwood a 546 ton steamer captured and then sunk by Komet on 25th November 1940. 29 prisoners taken including 4 women and 2 children.
4011127 RMS Rangitane (1929) a 16,712 ton passenger liner captured and sunk by Orion on 27 November 1940. 11 killed, including 6 women (4 passengers and 2 stewardesses). 295 prisoners taken, including 29 women.
410514 HMNZS Puriri a 927 ton cargo boat converted as a minesweeper sunk by a mine laid by Orion on 14 May 1941. 5 killed and 3 injured.
Good morning all. Further to the research for the book New Zealand Under Naval Attack - past, present and future, any thoughts and further information regarding the following data of casualties inflicted by hostile navies in New Zealand waters would be most appreciated thank you.
Yours aye
--------------------------------------------
CASUALTIES: 69 killed and 408 taken prisoner
SUNK VESSELS: 11. Wairuna, Winslow, SS Port Kembla, Pearl, Moa, SS Wimmera, RMS Niagara, Turakina, Holmwood, RMS Rangitane, HMNZS Puriri.
--------------------------------------------
World War One
170617 Wairuna a 3,950 ton steamer sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 17 June 1917. 42 taken prisoner.
170622 Winslow sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 22 June 1917. 15 crew taken prisoner.
170918 SS Port Kembla (1910) a 4,700 ton steamer carrying lead and frozen meat for England was sunk on 18 September 1917 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf off Farewell Spit. Crew of 50 evacuated on life boats picked up by the steamer Reglus later that day.
171213 Pearl, a motorboat, captured by Count Von Luckner at Motuihe Island on 13 December 2017.
171213 Moa, a 127 ton scow, captured by Count Von Luckner at Red Mecury Island on 13 December 2017. 6 crew and one child taken prisoner.
180626 SS Wimmera a 3,022 ton passenger steamer sunk on 26 June 1918 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf north of Cape Maria van Diemen. 16 killed.
190621 3 men killed pulling a mine ashore at the Port of Waikato on 21 June 1919.
--------------------------------------------
World War Two
400619 RMS Niagara a 13,415 ton ocean liner sunk by Orion's mine on 19 June 1940. Carrying 590 ingots of gold. Five 12.4 kg ignots remaining. 336 passengers and crew escape in lifeboats.
400820 Turakina a 8,706 ton merchant ship sunk by Orion on 20 August 1940. 34 killed. 20 taken prison.
401125 Holmwood a 546 ton steamer captured and then sunk by Komet on 25th November 1940. 29 prisoners taken including 4 women and 2 children.
4011127 RMS Rangitane (1929) a 16,712 ton passenger liner captured and sunk by Orion on 27 November 1940. 11 killed, including 6 women (4 passengers and 2 stewardesses). 295 prisoners taken, including 29 women.
410514 HMNZS Puriri a 927 ton cargo boat converted as a minesweeper sunk by a mine laid by Orion on 14 May 1941. 5 killed and 3 injured.
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kiwipatriot69
Active Member
RMS Niagara ,I'm surprised it still has 5 ingots onboard, if they are standard 12.5 kilo ones that's about 5 million dollars worth! I wonder if there are other gold bullion ships around our coastline that were sunk during WW2, might be just the job for Hmnzs Manawanui eh? Within Nz territorial waters, would we have claim on such ships, or would the country it was destined for still have claim to the cargo?
The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew
Pity it wasn't prize money. I'm not sure but I would think that it would be either the consignor, the shipping company, or the insurer if it was insured.
t68
Well-Known Member
The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew
I would not think you could get insurance in war time, wouldn’t the government have to indemnify?
But all rights go to the salvor.The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew
I would assume that the ship and cargo have been declared total losses although I’m not familiar with NZ policy on access to historic/significant wrecks?
In addition to the above re insurance; it’s my understanding that most policies are negated by “Acts of War”
Are there any Brokers out there or others with a professional POV?
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Catalina
Active Member
Here she lies in some 131 meters. . . previously plump full of over 8 tonnes of gold on its way from the Bank of England to San Fransisco to pay for war munitions. Salvation operations in 1940 recovered 555 gold bars, and 30 more gold bars were raised in 1953.
5 gold bars lay still unaccounted for just over the horizon . . .
5 gold bars lay still unaccounted for just over the horizon . . .
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Five bars based on the weight of 590 being about 8 tons means the value is just over $2.6 million US. I wonder if the cost in resources and time needed for recovery would exceed this value? I guess if no further salvage attempts have been made since 1953 then the answer is likely yes.
Great that's within my iwi's rohe (tribal area). I'll talk to my younger bro who dives a lot and we should chuck in a Treaty claim to the Treaty Of Waitangi Tribunal. We have a couple of cuzzies who are very experienced with Treaty Of Waitangi claims and I am sure that they could be bribed with a goodly supply of kaimoana (sea food) Just gotta keep them other Maoris away especially from the kaimoana. LOL
Just gotta keep them other Maoris away especially from the kaimoana. LOL
Is the young bro experienced on helox? He's going to need to be.....
Seriously, 400 feet is a manageable depth these days for mixed gas diving, so I am surprised that somebody hasn't at least investigated the wreck by now. After all, there are a bunch of treasure hunters out there chasing willow-the-wisps of various sorts such as lost pirate ships in the Caribbean; at least in Niagara's case it is in a known position with a known value still onboard, or in the vicinity.
Seriously, 400 feet is a manageable depth these days for mixed gas diving, so I am surprised that somebody hasn't at least investigated the wreck by now. After all, there are a bunch of treasure hunters out there chasing willow-the-wisps of various sorts such as lost pirate ships in the Caribbean; at least in Niagara's case it is in a known position with a known value still onboard, or in the vicinity.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Yes, John ,as AI said, roughly five million Kiwi dollars, being Whangarei born myself I'm ashamed I wasn't aware of this before.Given its location being near to the poor knights marine reserve I'd be concerned about the environmental impact of leaking oil too, especially given its size . Could be another reason for our divers to take a look. Used to love digging for pipis and toheroa in Whangarei as a kid. Tikipunga falls was just down the road from my house! Smoked eel too went down a treat ,caught from there, whitebait too.