Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Catalina

Active Member
Air to Air missiles for our MH-60S Seahawks...

Great to read that the USN is developing AGR-20F FALCO air-to-air missiles for its Seahawks (and also USAF F-16s) to counter drone swarms. Loaded into 7 round LAU-131 launch pods, of which the Seahawk can carry 4, this gives each of our MH-60Rs 28 light air to air missiles. With a Mach 2.9 speed and a 10.5nm range, this air to air punch will be a great asset for our airborne naval assets. The ability of naval helicopters to take out, at a distance, both drones and hostile naval helicopters provides greatly increased tactical options in the upcoming naval battles of the 21st century...
 
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Warhawk

New Member
I see UK increasing it's capacity at the shipping yard with Type 31 frigate . I believe Type 31 frigate you have more chance getting 3 or 4 frigates affordable and Indonesia are running with the model. New Zealand could run with 2 fully equipped frigates and 2 reduced but can add modulars doing away with OPV and running with same hull. One problem with our OPV was not longer enough and tonnage to operate in Southern Ocean. I do like Japanese frigates but our Government cheapskapes $$$
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I see UK increasing it's capacity at the shipping yard with Type 31 frigate . I believe Type 31 frigate you have more chance getting 3 or 4 frigates affordable and Indonesia are running with the model. New Zealand could run with 2 fully equipped frigates and 2 reduced but can add modulars doing away with OPV and running with same hull. One problem with our OPV was not longer enough and tonnage to operate in Southern Ocean. I do like Japanese frigates but our Government cheapskapes $$$
Before trying to focus on a specific class of vessel, it might be better to consider what roles and therefore capabilities the RNZN should really be looking at in future surface combatants. With that as a guide, then classes and their variations could be considered.

I would also recommend completely divorcing consideration for OPV's from that of combatants because what works for and would be good in one, could be really inappropriate in another. Ice strengthening for instance, the OPV's have it, as does Canterbury and Aotearoa, would the extra cost and complexity of ice strengthen really be appropriate for a combat vessel? Similarly, would the comprehensive damage control, sensor, power gensets and CMS as well as the costs for all of the above really work for an OPV? IMO the answer would be, "not really," since part of the reason OPV's get built is because they provide patrol capabilities at much lower cost than actual warships of comparable size.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Before trying to focus on a specific class of vessel, it might be better to consider what roles and therefore capabilities the RNZN should really be looking at in future surface combatants. With that as a guide, then classes and their variations could be considered.

I would also recommend completely divorcing consideration for OPV's from that of combatants because what works for and would be good in one, could be really inappropriate in another. Ice strengthening for instance, the OPV's have it, as does Canterbury and Aotearoa, would the extra cost and complexity of ice strengthen really be appropriate for a combat vessel? Similarly, would the comprehensive damage control, sensor, power gensets and CMS as well as the costs for all of the above really work for an OPV? IMO the answer would be, "not really," since part of the reason OPV's get built is because they provide patrol capabilities at much lower cost than actual warships of comparable size.
Put simply

Does NZs future balanced naval force have combatants?

Cheers S
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Put simply

Does NZs future balanced naval force have combatants?

Cheers S
Combatants are the high level elements of a naval force.
The constabulary/auxilliary elements are what provides the balance/

So NZ needs both to have a balanced naval force (or else it needs a Navy - high end and a Coast Guard - low end, which then complicates the manning and funding)
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
since part of the reason OPV's get built is because they provide patrol capabilities at much lower cost than actual warships of comparable size.
OPV's contribute little towards our ability to defend our selves in the event of conflict and currently NZ has very little that can. With the deteriorating international situation we need to improve this situation as fast as we can, but the current government us walking around with it's hands in it's pockets doing as little as it thinks it can get away with while trying to make the public believe all is under control.
The problem with OPV's is they look good, save money, but have no place in a combat environment and we are desperately short of combat capability in both our Navy and Air Force.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
OPV's contribute little towards our ability to defend our selves in the event of conflict and currently NZ has very little that can. With the deteriorating international situation we need to improve this situation as fast as we can, but the current government us walking around with it's hands in it's pockets doing as little as it thinks it can get away with while trying to make the public believe all is under control.
The problem with OPV's is they look good, save money, but have no place in a combat environment and we are desperately short of combat capability in both our Navy and Air Force.
I look at it a bit differently, though there is very little argument that in a direct conflict scenario an OPV can contribute very little to a confrontation and might actually make a situation worse by becoming a target which is neither able to defend itself, or even be particularly survivable without outside intervention.

Where I look at things like OPV's is that it might be thought of a bit like the different between Army and police. Unless things have gone all kinds of horrible, one really does not want to plan on deploying police forces to provide combat elements like one would deploy an infantry, cav or armoured unit. OTOH one also typically would not want to deploy an Army unit to provide policing elements for a law enforcement response. Realistically one would want a nation to have and provide both types of forces and capabilities.

As I recall it, one of the reasons why Project Protector was initiated during the Clarke gov't is that gov't finally was forced to admit that the naval forces had been run down and shrunk too much, to the point where the RNZN was no longer large enough to carry out the sorts of patrolling needed to monitor and protect NZ proper as well as the EEZ. The project was to significantly rebuild the number of vessels in RNZN service so that at least the constab patrolling functions could be done.
 

Warhawk

New Member
I look at it a bit differently, though there is very little argument that in a direct conflict scenario an OPV can contribute very little to a confrontation and might actually make a situation worse by becoming a target which is neither able to defend itself, or even be particularly survivable without outside intervention.

Where I look at things like OPV's is that it might be thought of a bit like the different between Army and police. Unless things have gone all kinds of horrible, one really does not want to plan on deploying police forces to provide combat elements like one would deploy an infantry, cav or armoured unit. OTOH one also typically would not want to deploy an Army unit to provide policing elements for a law enforcement response. Realistically one would want a nation to have and provide both types of forces and capabilities.

As I recall it, one of the reasons why Project Protector was initiated during the Clarke gov't is that gov't finally was forced to admit that the naval forces had been run down and shrunk too much, to the point where the RNZN was no longer large enough to carry out the sorts of patrolling needed to monitor and protect NZ proper as well as the EEZ. The project was to significantly rebuild the number of vessels in RNZN service so that at least the constab patrolling functions could be done.
NZ navy personal is only 100 short from 1990 level problem being to many sitting in behind desks and not enough in key Positions which has shortage key staff. Maybe we could run with 2 x Arrowhead 140(type 31 ) and possible 2 x Arrowhead 120 which being promoted to Sweden do way with OPV which cheap for patrol but toothless if get into trouble.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
OPV's contribute little towards our ability to defend our selves in the event of conflict and currently NZ has very little that can.
Whilst this is true, the "dilemma" is historically (since the 1970's) the RNZN's 4th frigate (until 1995) has been tasked with EEZ patrol and border protection duties. It would be much cheaper operationally and CapEx wise to simply use a dedicated OPV for these functions (meaning funding saved could be utilised elsewhere where much needed). The downside of this, as you state, is that they contribute little to actual defence and the second downside is that some specialised crew are still needed for the OPV, which can be problematic when their skills and experience are primarily needed elsewhere (eg for combatants).

Looking ahead a worthwhile solution IMO could be not to replace the two current Otago-class OPV's like-for-like, instead replace them with a combatant or combatants (thus increasing the size of the combatant fleet, say to at least four, as the ANZAC's are also replaced like-for-like). This then improves our ability to defend ourselves (and provide better presence in the Indo-Pacific etc).

However there is still a need for a SOPV, a vessel that can patrol, surveil and handle the rougher (and dangerous) Southern Ocean (as the Australian/NZ experience of using combatants that weren't designed for use in the deep south has proved to be problematic). If we looked at something like the proposed Danish Future Arctic Patrol Vessel (Arktiske Patruljeskibe), i.e. the upgraded 2025 iteration rather than the original concept, to assess its suitability to operate in our region, then we could have a "better than OPV" type vessel that with its organic helicopter/hanger and its modular mission deck could be equipped for sea warfare functions such as mine-laying, underwater ISR (ASW support of other kill-chain assets) and embark troops/divers and their sea craft & unmanned craft for insertion/MCM ops etc. If such a vessel was suitable, and if two were acquired, then we perhaps it could also be utilised in the South Pacific to provide presence, border patrol and surveillance.

With the deteriorating international situation we need to improve this situation as fast as we can, but the current government us walking around with it's hands in it's pockets doing as little as it thinks it can get away with while trying to make the public believe all is under control.
If we assume recent baseline defence spending is $5b/year, and the Govt last year budgeted for a $12b increase over the next four years ($3b/year) that looks like a 60% increase in defence funding. That's pretty steep increase with further increases projected in the following four years to lift funding to 2% gdp by 2032 (basically a 100% increase on 2024 expenditure), with indications it could go higher, particularly as "pressure" is applied by our allies to the West we won't want to remain the odd man out (and let's not forget a special shout out to CRINKS for helping to make the case). Personally I wouldn't frame this as a government walking around with its hands in its pockets but each to their own.

The problem with OPV's is they look good, save money, but have no place in a combat environment and we are desperately short of combat capability in both our Navy and Air Force.
Agree that this needs to be addressed further particularly once the current four year funding plan is completed. I would suggest we are perhaps in the latter part of "crawl" stage, rebuilding (following the then GOTD's covid duties which hollowed out defence personnel). I've seen statements of doubling the Army intake this year and also increasing naval training numbers (presumably air force is the same), so we are on the up and laying the foundations (gaining experience and skillsets) to further increase efforts from around 2029. Got to start somewhere, to get there ...
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If we assume recent baseline defence spending is $5b/year, and the Govt last year budgeted for a $12b increase over the next four years ($3b/year) that looks like a 60% increase in defence funding. That's pretty steep increase with further increases projected in the following four years to lift funding to 2% gdp by 2032 (basically a 100% increase on 2024 expenditure), with indications it could go higher, particularly as "pressure" is applied by our allies to the West we won't want to remain the odd man out (and let's not forget a special shout out to CRINKS for helping to make the case). Personally I wouldn't frame this as a government walking around with its hands in its pockets but each to their own.
When we look at Australia heading to 3% and NATO Looking at 5% the increase is as I said as little as they think they can get away with. Remember what has been posted before that the budget averaged 2.5% in the 1980's and the average since then has been half that, so that the damage done to defence is huge with the complete elimination of any real ability to defend ourselves.
With the reality of the USA being unreliable and any threat in our area would also involve Australia, tying up their forces in their defence, we need to be able to defend our selves at least for a limited period of time. The money being allocated at this time will not achieve this, So it is the minimum to make the public think something is being done without actually achieving the ability to defend our selves.
The question we must answer is how much is our freedom and sovereignty worth?
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
When we look at Australia heading to 3% and NATO Looking at 5% the increase is as I said as little as they think they can get away with. Remember what has been posted before that the budget averaged 2.5% in the 1980's and the average since then has been half that, so that the damage done to defence is huge with the complete elimination of any real ability to defend ourselves.
With the reality of the USA being unreliable and any threat in our area would also involve Australia, tying up their forces in their defence, we need to be able to defend our selves at least for a limited period of time. The money being allocated at this time will not achieve this, So it is the minimum to make the public think something is being done without actually achieving the ability to defend our selves.
The question we must answer is how much is our freedom and sovereignty worth?
So what are your timeframes to achieve 3-5% and how will that be funded?

I'm sure most of us here would like to see more funding such as that (and personally I believe at least 3% min - $15b, or around 1/4 of current ADF funding) would produce a capable and sustainable baseline NZDF for our nations size and economy as it stands) but we have to be realistic as to how to achieve that, how, when, and where the cuts are to be made (and the follow on societal effects). I'm really not sure how this could be achieved in the short term you appear to be advocating for so if you have any views I'd be keen to hear them.
 

Aerojoe

Member
So what are your timeframes to achieve 3-5% and how will that be funded?

I'm sure most of us here would like to see more funding such as that (and personally I believe at least 3% min - $15b, or around 1/4 of current ADF funding) would produce a capable and sustainable baseline NZDF for our nations size and economy as it stands) but we have to be realistic as to how to achieve that, how, when, and where the cuts are to be made (and the follow on societal effects). I'm really not sure how this could be achieved in the short term you appear to be advocating for so if you have any views I'd be keen to hear them.
I agree. The Infrastructure Commission report earlier this week prioritising health, education and critical infrastructure (not even "roads of national importance" were seen as a priority) only adds to the challenging political environment (and public perception) any increase in Defence spend will need to navigate in the short-term.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
When we look at Australia heading to 3% and NATO Looking at 5% the increase is as I said as little as they think they can get away with. Remember what has been posted before that the budget averaged 2.5% in the 1980's and the average since then has been half that, so that the damage done to defence is huge with the complete elimination of any real ability to defend ourselves.
With the reality of the USA being unreliable and any threat in our area would also involve Australia, tying up their forces in their defence, we need to be able to defend our selves at least for a limited period of time. The money being allocated at this time will not achieve this, So it is the minimum to make the public think something is being done without actually achieving the ability to defend our selves.
The question we must answer is how much is our freedom and sovereignty worth?
Note that the NATO 5% goal is 3.5% for actual military kit and 1.5% for military infrastructure/personnel support)
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Supply x 2
Amphibious x 2
Combatant x 3 plus
( numbers are the flexible bit )
I rarely take part in dream fleets for various reasons. However today I am bored :-/

Surface Combat
x4 FFG's

Amphibious
x2 LPD's+ (as per DCP019)
(The (+) plus, I would love to see a small LHD like the Singaporean Endurance 170)


Auxiliary Fleet
x1 AOR
x1 MRV/AOR
x1 DHV Dive/Hydro

Patrol Squadron
x2 SOPV's
x4 IPV's

Surface Combat
Giving enough frigates to have one on station, one ready to go 24hrs on call, one in light maintenance ready in 72hrs etc, one in heavy maintenance. We have all known two was never enough and we need to get back to at least a four frigate navy... full stop, no ifs, and or buts.

Amphibious
The two LPD's replacing Canterbury... they have seen the worth and what she could have been if done properly. Having two will mean can have one operation one in maintenance period.

The Auxiliary Fleet
The auxiliary fleet becomes a little bit harder to swindle. Obviously a dedicated AOR but also MRV that is AOR capable giving redundancy on that front, but the MRV can do more dry goods. Limited vehicle giving more redundancy to the LPD's.

The DHV yes replacing Manawanui, she can aslo do minor patrols and resupply missions.

Patrol Squadron
Ice strengthened SOPV while they are capable of doing southern ocean they need to also be able switch up and go into the tropics.

4 IPV's given to the reserves for patrols and training.

Overall all the vessels need to be armed appropriately and none of this "fitted for but not with (FFBNW) " BS

Yes i know crewing is an issue, heck if NZ got an LHD I would rejoin just serve on one till I retire... lol

We need look at why many of our soldiers, sailors and airman are leaving and it is not just about pay there is more to it. Including;
  • Why they joined in the first place,​
  • Opportunities,​
  • Deployments,​
  • Pay, housing


 

swerve

Super Moderator
I rarely take part in dream fleets for various reasons. However today I am bored :-/

Amphibious
x2 LPD's+ (as per DCP019)
(The (+) plus, I would love to see a small LHD like the Singaporean Endurance 170)


Amphibious
The two LPD's replacing Canterbury... they have seen the worth and what she could have been if done properly. Having two will mean can have one operation one in maintenance period.
Two ships, each twice the tonnage of Canterbury . . . a step too far? Perhaps two smaller vessels might suffice, such as a variant of the Italian San Giorgio class, maybe based on the slightly bigger (143 x 21.5 metres) Qatari Fulk, probably with lighter armament & maybe a bit more hangar space. That'd be two ships about the same size as the current one.
 
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