Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
SamB said:
How?

The governments priorities are wack. They choose announcements and delays over prioritising budget announcements.

I have my unprofessional bias. Perhaps you have a professional opinion for how to prioritise so.. how?
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There are several levels to be considered for this and the end result could go on for some time so breafly. We must also consider tha an attack against us is likely to be in conjuction with an attackon Australia, which means they will have their own problems and won't be able to help us.
To protect against a direct threat to our sovereignty we need to to be able to control the air and sea aproaches to NZ. In this respect we have a 2000km moat, this puts us outside the combat radus of land based strike or fighter type aircraft.
Howeverthe first priority is to know what is happening in our regon, so we need to improve survaliance and inteligance abilities. the next priority is to provide a credable ability to deter or destroy both air or sea based attacks and it is my belief this is best covered by reforming an ACF as this can carry out e defence against either air or sea borne threats at a significant distance fro our shores and it has the ability to carry the apropriate weapons to the apropriate location quickly.
The next priority is to maintain critical comunications like fuel importing in which the navy and airforce have the major imput and additional frigates and P8's are required. in this respect maintaining the Tasman sea communication would be a priority.
Regional defence requires a whole extra layer of abilities which would involve all 3 servicesI and I will leave at this time.
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Australia has a fair amount of high end capability, but in a conflict to our north, NZ is likely to be vulnerable to grey zone pressure, and even the asymmetric threats. Australia isn't going to redeploy all of its key assets that are protecting both countries to help with a lesser threat.

But I am less enthusiastic about rebuilding ACF capability within NZ. It would take a long time for that to happen. Deliveries of aircraft are what a decade away? How long would the money and political support last? The F-35 requires expensive upgrades and maintenance, training, weapons. For NZ, I am not sure stealthy is that much of an advantage, because its unlikely to engage other smaller fighter jets anyway.

The F-35 has no modern maritime strike weapon capability that is tied into block IV. No LRASM. No JSM. The P8 has that capability today. The RNZDF should definitely acquire LRASM/NSM immediately to stock its own aircraft for its own missions. Australia gets that from the F-18s and its P8s.. Manned fighter concepts are under pressure, and they aren't getting any cheaper to buy or operate. IF Nz is desperate, perhaps looking into classic hornet acquisition, US/Australia etc could basically give these away. But operating and keeping them operationally relevant would cost superhornet/F35 money anyway.

Drones are coming on line that arguably would be a better fit for NZ and its huge distances, and these can be based out of islands. Or even on ships themselves. It is the drone era now.

Something like the Baykar Bayraktar TB3 could be ordered, and operate NZ could also feasibly crew. $5m each. A Ghostbat is going to be similar prices and may end up having similar/superior capability.. 24 of these could be acquired for just the basing upgrade costs of a F-35. Even deploying these from forward bases in the Pacific would be huge. These are real here today options. Even a small flight of 6 would be operationally useful.

Ghostbat could provide a real kill chain with the ability to find, identify and destroy targets out to long range fighter distances. They could escort P8s. Etc. They can integrate with Australian assets. Kiwis could deploy on E7s to control them, perhaps even control them from a NZ P8s. Germany is looking to acquire them, and make them, so if that happens there will be big users, supporting upgrades and deployments.
 
R

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
StingrayOZ said:
or NZ, I am not sure stealthy is that much of an advantage, because its unlikely to engage other smaller fighter jets anyway.
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Totally agree, high end not required, but the ability to counter basic air threat as in long range transport or bombers and response to sea threat at distance. A basic system with modern weapons and reasonable numbers, currently not enough launch platforms which makes defence against missiles a lot easier, a mass multi directional launch far more likely to succeed.
 
S

SamB

Member
RNZAF has been operating the T-6C Texan well enough, for long enough, so long in fact that it's created a capability gap.

To bridge this gap the Government should acquire a duel use LIFT (lead in Trainor) program.

This is not a request for a Multi billion dollar ACF. It's an investment in a trainer that doubles as a sovereign deterrent. It delivers immediate, credible options to counter basic regional threats.

The LIFT program amongst other things provides a visible response to grey zone Maritime threats with close in gun runs across the bow or intercept long ranged aircraft. Show them NSM/JSM AMRAAM/sidewinder.

A balanced RNZAF fleet structure of duel seat variants ensures Jet-Pilot conversion with a pair of single seaters on high readiness for sudden show of force.

At a CAPEX of NZD$1.5 billion and OPEX of NZD$15 million annually a LIFT program utilises existing frameworks and/or wishlists. It delivers an immediate deterrence without diverting critical funding from the wider government budget or current and future NZDF modernization priorities
 
X

Xthenaki

Active Member
On the Royal Navy forum a member suggested the possibility of using a "Lite" T31 to fill the Royal Navies replacements for Batch 1 and or Batch 2 OPV's. Another consideration for our OPV replacement maybe? Especially if the Arrowhead 140 became the frigate option.
 
M

Massive

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately to me the New Zealand government's approach to defence just does not feel serious. There is a clear gap between what they say they want to achieve and what is planned.

That is, there just does not appear to be a commitment to having combat capability - either near to home or deployed in the region - in a manner that results in some sort of presence.

Can't really say what serious looks like but surely for the Navy it is something like 5 frigates, 2 oilers and 2 LSD's, with a regular army able to deploy and sustain a company sized battle group with enablers in the region (think something like a Spanish marine infantry brigade).

This would clearly require a significant increase in funding, technical sophistication and manpower but I feel it gives a sense of the gap.

Thoughts,

Massive
 
T

Tbone

Active Member
Just hand over our Arafura class OPV’s to Ndw Zealand. They at least might upgun them as civmec suggested. Then you have 6 vessels ready to go. Look into the Mogami to cover the Anzacs mid 2030’s. Australia to keep spitting out ECCPB to cover the Arafura class. The Arafura with low manning and modular capabilities would be a great grey zone deterrent for NZ
 
Nighthawk.NZ

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Massive said:
Can't really say what serious looks like but surely for the Navy it is something like 5 frigates, 2 oilers and 2 LSD's, with a regular army able to deploy and sustain a company sized battle group with enablers in the region (think something like a Spanish marine infantry brigade).
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I doubt the 2 oilers, I just very much doubt that ... I doubt 5 frigates, 3 if we are lucky and I want to get back to at least 4 and I doubt that unless we drop the OPV's.

As for the LSD's would prefer LPD's as they have the hanger facilities where as the LSD usually have the flight deck no hanger facilities etc


Tbone said:
Just hand over our Arafura class OPV’s to Ndw Zealand. They at least might upgun them as civmec suggested.
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They would need to be heavily modified to met NZ requirements, for a start ice strengthened to go south... Needs hanger for helo ops when going south... and it it is not as simple just saying up gun it usually a lot rework below need to be done.

The current OPV's have the Ice Belt, Hanger, longer range, able to carry that container for support, also can take 30 extra passengers

While the current OPV's don't go south that often any more they have proven that they can handle it.
 
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