Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

I'm really surprised about this. Given Chinas notorious for shoddy engineering standards, and consumer goods electronics ect.

Not to mention the security risk it might pose, they have Arliegh Burkes using those docks too, woudnt that pose a security risk, given their habit of backwards engineering any valuable specifications, military or otherwise, they get their hands on?

.
China has recently landed a spacecraft on the far side of the moon, they have evolving defence equipment which is competitive, they have the largest and one of the best fast rail networks in the world just to name a few of their technological accomplishments.
“Shoddy” engineering does not deliver these.
I can remember when the first Japanese cars appeared on our roads in Oz, universally condemned as “Jap crap” but they were still going strong when most of the locally built cars were rusted away.
Never ever underestimate the capability or quality of a prospective opponent, that will cause immense pain.

Getting back to Chinese achievements in engineering, just one visit to Shanghai will change your mind so I don’t think a piece of “primitive” construction such as a dry dock will cause any concern and what security concern could there possibly be for something that’s nothing but a steel box with a few pumps?

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Yet who's doing upgrades to Australian naval docks now? Not China. Yes, after Usa did a moon landing what, 50 odd years ago, China has finally caught up, using tech 'borrowed' at least in part from Nasa no doubt.

This has been covered by media before,as well as FBI investigations into the matter.

And both Transrail Austrailia,where I have a brother working most of his life as a safety inspector, are none to please with the 'quality builds' of the trains China built for them, neither is our own Nz Rail.

So a spotty record of hits and misses really. I haven't forgotten the rail disasters and bridge and building collapses they have either.

 

[KiwiRob]

What trains did the Australians buy from China? NZ was the first Westen country to buy Chinese prime movers, the first batch Had some teething troubles which has been resolved. KiwiRail must like them as they have bought 4 subsequent batches of trains and operate 71 trains once they are all delivered.

When you look at how quickly China has developed in the past 30 years accidents were bound to happen. They’ve basically compressed what Westen countries have taken 100 plus years to do in 20/25% of the time.

You can also find plenty of rail disasters and bridge and building collapses in every western country, the Chinese aren’t the only people making mistakes.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yet who's doing upgrades to Australian naval docks now? Not China. Yes, after Usa did a moon landing what, 50 odd years ago, China has finally caught up, using tech 'borrowed' at least in part from Nasa no doubt.

This has been covered by media before,as well as FBI investigations into the matter.

And both Transrail Austrailia,where I have a brother working most of his life as a safety inspector, are none to please with the 'quality builds' of the trains China built for them, neither is our own Nz Rail.

So a spotty record of hits and misses really. I haven't forgotten the rail disasters and bridge and building collapses they have either.

Back in 1941 people portrayed the Japanese as unable to fight and wouldn't last 10 minutes against proper civilised white mans armies / navies / air forces. What happened to Fortress Singapore, and the might of the Royal Navy, RAF and the British Army? The USN in Hawaii, and Western Forces in Indo China and South East Asia? They got a hiding by so called little yellow men who didn't know how to fight. The hubris of Western arrogance. Hitler famously said of Stalin's Russia: "Kick the door in and the whole place will fall down". Looked what happened? Stalin certainly got the last laugh there. France and the US vs Ho Chi Minh? Uncle Ho won that one too. Never ever underestimate an enemy or potential enemy just because they are of a different culture, religion or colour to you - it will come to bite you in the back side, maybe even deleteriously.

That is the problem that many people in the west have when they look at China and other non western cultures and peoples. They see it through a lens of Orientalism, where non westerners are forced by westerners into an image of what the westerners want them to be; an image which in reality is far from the truth. That lens inhibits the thinking and judgements of westerners so that such stereotypes clouds most qualitative analysis that is professed by many people. So underestimate the Chinese at your peril because I for one believe them to be far more capable and dangerous than many accept. They have a totally different cultural value system to the west and do not value life in the same way. They never have, much like the Japanese did during WW2 and prior where a casualty count had a lot lower level of importance than it did with the allies. The PRC was the same in Korea when it intervened against the UN Forces. They (and the Russians) will be the same in any war against the west because they know how sensitive the west is to a high casualty rate.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I'm not underestimating China as a great power, just that thier technology, being borrowed, backwards engineered often isn't to the same standard as Western technology.

They don't use the same quality control methods, nor do they treat their workers to the same standards, hell, even trade unions are illegal there!

Party corruption and bribery of officials is rife, projects can be stalled even, if your not affiliated too the communist party,that will be there downfall at least in part.

While us 'westerners' have had our faults,and did a lot of harm in the past, i empire building isnt what we do anymore.

Under UN and NATO, organisations like them we build a system of laws and rules based order for nations to prosper, to avoid history repeating itself, and keep rogue nations in check didnt we?

China has used our collective nations generosity in helping there economy grow strong, i just think we should be doing business with them as little as possible when it comes to infrastructure builds,especially when they have started empire building themselves.

And yeah, i think Nz should be doing more, investing more in our alliances with Asia pacific nations like Singapore, Veitnam and South Korea, Japan ect instead of China, basing them here, buying there ships, planes too, not just the token defence exersize or vist.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Kiwipatriot69 you are correct IMHO. But as a society we have striped our manufacturing capability over the last 30 years and allowed it to be established in China at great cost to our own economies.

As was said earlier a floating dry dock is a series of metal boxes with pumps and this should not present a challenge to a nation such as NZ to build. As a piece of national infrastructure this could be constructed in modules on a level piece of near shore and welded together once each piece is moved into the water.

It comes down to how important it is to have the national capacity to maintain government naval assets in country and the desire to maintain a repair facility for commercial shipping. Given the importance of the inter island ferries to the economy I would think this to be of national importance that those ferries have the least amount of downtime for maintenance. We have the same issues here with ferry traffic to and from Nova Scotia and Newfoundland except they travel thru ice covered waters this time of the year.

 

[John Fedup]

One point missing in this discussion of Chinese technology and capability is how they got to their present situation. When China “opened up”, Japanese and Western corporations were falling over each to get in. Remember Japan’s boom times? They were the first through the door. Significant technology transfers were given away to add into stuff they stole. Look at the vast numbers of Chinese students in engineering and sciences being trained in Western universities, usually at the expense of local students being turned away as universities get far more tuition revenue from foreign students. The Chinese graduates in many cases are now training Chinese students at Chinese universities. Net result, a huge talent pool of scientists and engineers to further develop China high tech economy instead of a swamp of lawyers aspiring to be pollies.

I guess it is fortunate for us that corruption, their worsening demographic situation, and an increasing rich-poor gap might put a brake on their progress. Also, the environmental issues within China are coming to hit the fan soon. Still these problems won’t effect the military development.

 

[John Fedup]

Kiwipatriot69 you are correct IMHO. But as a society we have striped our manufacturing capability over the last 30 years and allowed it to be established in China at great cost to our own economies.

As was said earlier a floating dry dock is a series of metal boxes with pumps and this should not present a challenge to a nation such as NZ to build. As a piece of national infrastructure this could be constructed in modules on a level piece of near shore and welded together once each piece is moved into the water.

It comes down to how important it is to have the national capacity to maintain government naval assets in country and the desire to maintain a repair facility for commercial shipping. Given the importance of the inter island ferries to the economy I would think this to be of national importance that those ferries have the least amount of downtime for maintenance. We have the same issues here with ferry traffic to and from Nova Scotia and Newfoundland except they travel thru ice covered waters this time of the year.

I understand your POV here Novascotiaboy but I think saving money on a drydocks, which aren’t sensitive technology, makes sense as it frees up more money for the military kit which should be built locally even though it is more costly to do so.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

John Fedup I don’t see this as a military expenditure but a national infrastructure investment. At some point the current leftist government will be turfed, as I hope will happen here this fall, and the next government sees the opportunity to invest in rebuilding NZ critical infrastructure and using a central heavy industrial facilty to accomplish this. NZ has a steel mill. Has the engineering capability. It’s just not centralized to create the nucleus of an industrial hub for the benefit of the country and the SP.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

In light of the current trade war between Us and China placing tarrifs on our steel and aluminum imports, yet another reason for us to locally source, build it ourselves?

How has this impacted Australia and Canada I wonder for that? Wouldn't that add significant costs to defence as well?

 

[ASSAIL]

I'm not underestimating China as a great power, just that thier technology, being borrowed, backwards engineered often isn't to the same standard as Western technology.

They don't use the same quality control methods, nor do they treat their workers to the same standards, hell, even trade unions are illegal there!

Party corruption and bribery of officials is rife, projects can be stalled even, if your not affiliated too the communist party,that will be there downfall at least in part.

While us 'westerners' have had our faults,and did a lot of harm in the past, i empire building isnt what we do anymore.

Under UN and NATO, organisations like them we build a system of laws and rules based order for nations to prosper, to avoid history repeating itself, and keep rogue nations in check didnt we?

China has used our collective nations generosity in helping there economy grow strong, i just think we should be doing business with them as little as possible when it comes to infrastructure builds,especially when they have started empire building themselves.

And yeah, i think Nz should be doing more, investing more in our alliances with Asia pacific nations like Singapore, Veitnam and South Korea, Japan ect instead of China, basing them here, buying there ships, planes too, not just the token defence exersize or vist.

Your cynicism regarding China is in direct conflict with NZs trade relationship with them. You combined trade with China is worth $26b almost 39% of your combined imports and exports. That’s a lot of “shoddy” stuff entering NZ.
A little realpolitik here, China is your biggest trading partner and the country’s prosperity depends on that continuing. China’s expansion is inevitable and the strength of her armed forces will eventually challenge the US. Her people,are intelligent and hard working and not beset with the comfort of prosperity and sense of entitlement common in many developed economies, in summary NZ has no choice other to trade with and foster close economic relations with China.
To counterbalance that truth and gain some bargaining strength in the Chinese relationship the country needs to display a resolve in its own defence and foster close alliances with other western powers principally the US.
I would argue that the NZ government should be doing both of those and yes, if China offers a floating dock for the RNZN at a very competitive price buy it.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Your cynicism regarding China is in direct conflict with NZs trade relationship with them. You combined trade with China is worth $26b almost 39% of your combined imports and exports. That’s a lot of “shoddy” stuff entering NZ.
A little realpolitik here, China is your biggest trading partner and the country’s prosperity depends on that continuing. China’s expansion is inevitable and the strength of her armed forces will eventually challenge the US. Her people,are intelligent and hard working and not beset with the comfort of prosperity and sense of entitlement common in many developed economies, in summary NZ has no choice other to trade with and foster close economic relations with China.
To counterbalance that truth and gain some bargaining strength in the Chinese relationship the country needs to display a resolve in its own defence and foster close alliances with other western powers principally the US.
I would argue that the NZ government should be doing both of those and yes, if China offers a floating dock for the RNZN at a very competitive price buy it.

Yes, I read Chinese imports now outstrips the Usa ones here. And if course that will influence the tone of any defence white paper made or politician here,ahem outside of maybe Winston peters speaking out against China

 

[ngatimozart]

In light of the current trade war between Us and China placing tarrifs on our steel and aluminum imports, yet another reason for us to locally source, build it ourselves?

It comes down to cost effectiveness. Why do you think that there is very little manufacturing in NZ now? It went offshore because it was a darn sight cheaper to manufacture offshore than here. The same argument applies in many first world countries. A lot of manufacturing in NZ prior to 1984 - 87 was hugely inefficient and expensive, only surviving because of govt subsidies which were one of the reasons why the country was broke as in 1984. Think Argentina, Greece or maybe Venezuela today. That was NZ in 1984.

I'm not underestimating China as a great power, just that thier technology, being borrowed, backwards engineered often isn't to the same standard as Western technology.

These are the people who invented gunpowder and printing when Europe was in the Dark Ages, and about 2,000 years ago built a massive irrigation system that was self cleaning. Who had a greater understanding of the technology, medicine, arts, philosophy and the sciences than the so called civilised Europeans. The reason why they are currently playing catch up is because of Mao Zedong and his policies from about 1957 onwards, resulting in the Great Famine that killed about 25 million and then the Cultural Revolution which gutted the intelligentsia, engineers, scientists etc., destroyed libraries and knowledge, putting them back decades.

They don't use the same quality control methods, nor do they treat their workers to the same standards, hell, even trade unions are illegal there! Party corruption and bribery of officials is rife, projects can be stalled even, if your not affiliated too the communist party,that will be there downfall at least in part.

And that doesn't happen in the west? Look at US politics and that of many other nations and don't forget little old NZ. Trade Unions are not illegal in the PRC. They just have to be affiliated with and approved by the CCP. The Party brooks no competition at all. You either support the Party or you will be reeducated.

While us 'westerners' have had our faults,and did a lot of harm in the past, i empire building isnt what we do anymore.

We don't empire build anymore??? Jeez I must have been asleep and awoken in a wonderful new world.

Under UN and NATO, organisations like them we build a system of laws and rules based order for nations to prosper, to avoid history repeating itself, and keep rogue nations in check didnt we?

The UN and NATO are two totally different organisations with two totally different mandates. We are not a member of NATO and have no influence or say in its policy or decisions. Who defines rogue nations? Has it been the UN or just one or two nations in particular?

China has used our collective nations generosity in helping there economy grow strong, i just think we should be doing business with them as little as possible when it comes to infrastructure builds,especially when they have started empire building themselves.

And yeah, i think Nz should be doing more, investing more in our alliances with Asia pacific nations like Singapore, Veitnam and South Korea, Japan ect instead of China, basing them here, buying there ships, planes too, not just the token defence exersize or vist.

Finally I do find something I agree with:

"And yeah, I think NZ should be doing more, investing more in our alliances with Asia pacific nations like Singapore, Vietnam and South Korea, Japan etc., instead of China, basing them here, buying their ships, planes too, not just the token defence exercise or visit."​

That does make sense on the defence, diplomatic, political and trade fronts. I would add India and Indonesia to that list.

I would suggest that you do some checking or research because it appears you may have posted some material that a certain yank may call fake news. Also some of your posts on this skirted close to politics so just be aware that politics gets the mods all twitchy like.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Cabinet documents on the Edda Fonn acquisition have been released.

DEFENCE: APPROVAL TO BUY A DIVE AND HYDROGRAPHIC VESSEL - CABINET DOCUMENTS

 

[kiwipatriot69]

The Cabinet documents on the Edda Fonn acquisition have been released.

DEFENCE: APPROVAL TO BUY A DIVE AND HYDROGRAPHIC VESSEL - CABINET DOCUMENTS[/QUOTE


A little concerned about the estimated 15 yrs life span mentioned on the vessel, I'd expect RNZN to squeeze a lot more service out of her than that, or is it really intended to be an interm vessel, that govt will have to plan for its replacement within that time?

 

[kiwipatriot69]

It comes down to cost effectiveness. Why do you think that there is very little manufacturing in NZ now? It went offshore because it was a darn sight cheaper to manufacture offshore than here. The same argument applies in many first world countries. A lot of manufacturing in NZ prior to 1984 - 87 was hugely inefficient and expensive, only surviving because of govt subsidies which were one of the reasons why the country was broke as in 1984. Think Argentina, Greece or maybe Venezuela today. That was NZ in 1984.

These are the people who invented gunpowder and printing when Europe was in the Dark Ages, and about 2,000 years ago built a massive irrigation system that was self cleaning. Who had a greater understanding of the technology, medicine, arts, philosophy and the sciences than the so called civilised Europeans. The reason why they are currently playing catch up is because of Mao Zedong and his policies from about 1957 onwards, resulting in the Great Famine that killed about 25 million and then the Cultural Revolution which gutted the intelligentsia, engineers, scientists etc., destroyed libraries and knowledge, putting them back decades.

And that doesn't happen in the west? Look at US politics and that of many other nations and don't forget little old NZ. Trade Unions are not illegal in the PRC. They just have to be affiliated with and approved by the CCP. The Party brooks no competition at all. You either support the Party or you will be reeducated.

We don't empire build anymore??? Jeez I must have been asleep and awoken in a wonderful new world.

The UN and NATO are two totally different organisations with two totally different mandates. We are not a member of NATO and have no influence or say in its policy or decisions. Who defines rogue nations? Has it been the UN or just one or two nations in particular?

Finally I do find something I agree with:

"And yeah, I think NZ should be doing more, investing more in our alliances with Asia pacific nations like Singapore, Vietnam and South Korea, Japan etc., instead of China, basing them here, buying their ships, planes too, not just the token defence exercise or visit."​

That does make sense on the defence, diplomatic, political and trade fronts. I would add India and Indonesia to that list.

I would suggest that you do some checking or research because it appears you may have posted some material that a certain yank may call fake news. Also some of your posts on this skirted close to politics so just be aware that politics gets the mods

Regards to Empire building, I'd say China dredging up islands in the South China sea and building military bases there would be literally what they are doing, and inside neighbouring territory waters!

Has Usa or Us allies being guilty of doing so without the consent of nations involved? Threatening commercial and domestic fleets, ramming them with our navy vessels, illegally setting up drilling operations? All of which China has done.That's not fake news.

As for Unions and worker protections, when monitored and controlled by Communist party,doesn't really inspire democracy in my book. Nor does the spate of suicides that hit the headlines a few years back of factory workers throwing themselves off buildings at factories at Honda, Foxconn to name a few of note. Labour unrest will be another fly in the ointment China will have to address.

And yeah, major countries I'd forgotten to include in trade and possible military agreements, India and Indonesia absolutely considering their size and regional importance.

 

[ngatimozart]

Regards to Empire building, I'd say China dredging up islands in the South China sea and building military bases there would be literally what they are doing, and inside neighbouring territory waters!

Has Usa or Us allies being guilty of doing so without the consent of nations involved? Threatening commercial and domestic fleets, ramming them with our navy vessels, illegally setting up drilling operations? All of which China has done.That's not fake news.

As for Unions and worker protections, when monitored and controlled by Communist party,doesn't really inspire democracy in my book. Nor does the spate of suicides that hit the headlines a few years back of factory workers throwing themselves off buildings at factories at Honda, Foxconn to name a few of note. Labour unrest will be another fly in the ointment China will have to address.

And yeah, major countries I'd forgotten to include in trade and possible military agreements, India and Indonesia absolutely considering their size and regional importance.

Ok this has gone far enough. This is a RNZN thread and a defence forum not a political forum. If you have an axe to grind about China or any other country do it elsewhere not here.

 

[Gibbo]

The Cabinet documents on the Edda Fonn acquisition have been released.

DEFENCE: APPROVAL TO BUY A DIVE AND HYDROGRAPHIC VESSEL - CABINET DOCUMENTS

I don't think the 15 years estimated remaining use is an issue - we all know NZDF squeezes more out of their kit than the 'paper value'... I pick they'll get 20 years out of her. She may get the chop if the LOSV ever eventuates but as the latter would be a significant step up I don't think we'd cry over it when the time came. I'm quite excited by this purchase - she will be a damn good vessel to have in the fleet. I wonder if the RAN come sniffing around to see if she could be an option for carrying deployable submarine rescue systems in an emergency. They're certainly keeping very silent about any weapons systems... but I doubt she's going to have anything exciting.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

The Cabinet documents on the Edda Fonn acquisition have been released.

DEFENCE: APPROVAL TO BUY A DIVE AND HYDROGRAPHIC VESSEL - CABINET DOCUMENTS

Seems strange that they given 'new' Manuwanui 15 yrs when the inspection showed is in very good Nick for its age. They did mention weapons mounts though will be on it, so I'd bet they would get them recycled off the old ship. Yeah, I reckon she will be in service much longer than that. Given the old Manuwanui was a similar age when we purchased her, and her 30 yrs in service for RNZN. And amazing she's taking on a research/environmental protection role in Australia now ,after decommissioning, she could be in service for many years yet.

 

[Gibbo]

Seems strange that they given 'new' Manuwanui 15 yrs when the inspection showed is in very good Nick for its age. They did mention weapons mounts though will be on it, so I'd bet they would get them recycled off the old ship. Yeah, I reckon she will be in service much longer than that. Given the old Manuwanui was a similar age when we purchased her, and her 30 yrs in service for RNZN. And amazing she's taking on a research/environmental protection role in Australia now ,after decommissioning, she could be in service for many years yet.

LOL I actually missed the reference to weapon mounts... but yeah I'm guessing it'll be the 2 HMG mounts from the old ship. I'd be keen to do an open-day visit to her once she's in service.