Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[chis73]

Another contender for the southern ocean patrol vessel?

Norway has a new medium ice-breaker / research vessel - the Kronprins Haakon. Video here (link), specs here (link) and more graphics at Chuck Hill's Coastguard Blog (link). Built in Italy by Fincantieri and funded by university interests. It's only a medium ice-breaker so unlikely to be suitable for opening access to McMurdo, but probably would do a reasonable job in the outer sea-ice in the Southern Ocean. Can house the NH90 too. I guess in a NZ context it would have to replace NIWA's Tangaroa as well. Just thought I would throw it out there as another possibility. I don't believe any armament is necessary for such a vessel - presence would be enough deterrent..

That said, I am not at all confident that the SOPV will ever go ahead. Army wants new protected mobility vehicles to add to the already over-subscribed list of equipment to be replaced by the early 2030s. And generally - want Army wants, Army usually gets. They seem to have a stranglehold on the CDF position (last 3 have been Army for over 12 years; last Navy CDF was VADM Teagle more than 20 years ago). In a country with an EEZ 15 times its land area that just seems wrong.

Re: IPV deployments to the Pacific - am I correct in thinking that we currently have 3 in service (Rotoiti being recently de-mothballed)?

 

[spoz]

That has to be one of the ugliest ships ever built; what's with the bridge extension on the STBD side only? And, given the weather she will probably encounter, who would want the hangar door in the forward end of the superstructure, particularly in a short, wide ship which is bound to pitch significantly? I wouldn't be all that keen on flying to the deck in any sort of sea - a video of the FOCFT might be amusing - but I suppose it's basically going to be used in shelter or in ice.

 

[ASSAIL]

NZDF to provide maritime patrol support to Fiji – New Zealand Defence Force – Medium

HMNZS Taupo's turn for a summer in Fiji, following the deployment of Hawea last year.

Given one frigate is in dock in Canada and the Endeavour and Manawanui have recently been paid off, presumably there are a fair number of crew ashore at present. I wonder if any consideration will be given to seasonally deploying another IPV into the Pacific?

There are three Pacific territories, plus the Ross ice shelf, that make up what diplomats call the NZ Realm. New Zealand is formally responsible for the defence and security of all three territories.

Of these three, Tokelau has a large EEZ (320,000 square km) with a small population (<1500) on three widely-dispersed atolls. It is a dependency governed directly from Wellington, and the islanders have vigorously fobbed off efforts by well-meaning UN officials to push them to independence. Unfortunately there is no port, nor any infrastructure that could support even a small navy vessel. Tokelau's own ferry (the only means of visiting Tokelau, as there isn't enough vacant land for an airstrip) is based in Samoa, which would be the natural point to station any NZ vessel sent to patrol Tokelauan waters.

Niue, an independent state in free association with NZ, has much more dry land (it is a raised atoll) but fewer people (<1200) and a much smaller EEZ, relatively unattractive for fishing. It also lacks a safe anchorage, with all local vessels being pulled ashore by slipway. Of the three territories, it is probably the least attractive as a base for maritime patrols.

The Cook Islands (sometimes called Rarotonga) is easily the largest in both population and territory with almost 20,000 people, 15 islands and 1.8 million square km of ocean. It has a similar legal status as Niue; like Niue the locals are all entitled to NZ passports and use NZ currency. Unlike Tokelau and Niue, Cook Islands is the proud operator of their own patrol vessel under Australia's Pacific Patrol Boat scheme. This means they have at least a basic patrol capability that the others lack, although additional support would probably be well received.

If New Zealand were to forward-deploy another IPV, it would probably come down to a choice between the Cook Islands and Samoa, with Samoa acting as a secure base for patrolling nearby Tokelau and (somewhat further afield) Niue. Obviously, Samoa would also benefit from additional fisheries/SAR coverage, and NZ would have the opportunity to work closely with nearby US (American Samoa) and French (Wallis and Futuna) forces. Hosting foreign forces is often a sensitive political issue, but Samoa is canny enough to ensure they would see enough benefits to make it acceptable to their general public.

Pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if another IPV crew have to stock up on sunscreen and practice their coconut-cracking skills in the next year or so.

This is a good move and something I have argued for strongly on this forum when others were suggesting that NZ dispose of the IPVs.

 

[Lucasnz]

Another contender for the southern ocean patrol vessel?

Norway has a new medium ice-breaker / research vessel - the Kronprins Haakon. Video here (link), specs here (link) and more graphics at Chuck Hill's Coastguard Blog (link). Built in Italy by Fincantieri and funded by university interests. It's only a medium ice-breaker so unlikely to be suitable for opening access to McMurdo, but probably would do a reasonable job in the outer sea-ice in the Southern Ocean.

More a a Manawanui replacement I think than Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel (and ugly to). If treasury has their way NIWA would be using it as well.

Re: IPV deployments to the Pacific - am I correct in thinking that we currently have 3 in service (Rotoiti being recently de-mothballed)?

The fourth IPV is currently in the process of reactivation.

 

[recce.k1]

NZDF to provide maritime patrol support to Fiji – New Zealand Defence Force – Medium

HMNZS Taupo's turn for a summer in Fiji, following the deployment of Hawea last year.

Given one frigate is in dock in Canada and the Endeavour and Manawanui have recently been paid off, presumably there are a fair number of crew ashore at present. I wonder if any consideration will be given to seasonally deploying another IPV into the Pacific?

There are three Pacific territories, plus the Ross ice shelf, that make up what diplomats call the NZ Realm. New Zealand is formally responsible for the defence and security of all three territories.

Of these three, Tokelau has a large EEZ (320,000 square km) with a small population (<1500) on three widely-dispersed atolls. It is a dependency governed directly from Wellington, and the islanders have vigorously fobbed off efforts by well-meaning UN officials to push them to independence. Unfortunately there is no port, nor any infrastructure that could support even a small navy vessel. Tokelau's own ferry (the only means of visiting Tokelau, as there isn't enough vacant land for an airstrip) is based in Samoa, which would be the natural point to station any NZ vessel sent to patrol Tokelauan waters.

Niue, an independent state in free association with NZ, has much more dry land (it is a raised atoll) but fewer people (<1200) and a much smaller EEZ, relatively unattractive for fishing. It also lacks a safe anchorage, with all local vessels being pulled ashore by slipway. Of the three territories, it is probably the least attractive as a base for maritime patrols.

The Cook Islands (sometimes called Rarotonga) is easily the largest in both population and territory with almost 20,000 people, 15 islands and 1.8 million square km of ocean. It has a similar legal status as Niue; like Niue the locals are all entitled to NZ passports and use NZ currency. Unlike Tokelau and Niue, Cook Islands is the proud operator of their own patrol vessel under Australia's Pacific Patrol Boat scheme. This means they have at least a basic patrol capability that the others lack, although additional support would probably be well received.

If New Zealand were to forward-deploy another IPV, it would probably come down to a choice between the Cook Islands and Samoa, with Samoa acting as a secure base for patrolling nearby Tokelau and (somewhat further afield) Niue. Obviously, Samoa would also benefit from additional fisheries/SAR coverage, and NZ would have the opportunity to work closely with nearby US (American Samoa) and French (Wallis and Futuna) forces. Hosting foreign forces is often a sensitive political issue, but Samoa is canny enough to ensure they would see enough benefits to make it acceptable to their general public.

Pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if another IPV crew have to stock up on sunscreen and practice their coconut-cracking skills in the next year or so.

Added today to the MoD website:

Further Deployment of Royal New Zealand Navy Patrol Vessels to Fiji in 2018: Deployment Cabinet Paper and Minute

Heavily redacted in places but in summary:

*Two consecutive deployments to Fiji in 2018 - 3 month IPV deployment (May to August) followed by an OPV deployment (two patrols).

*The last time an OPV patrolled Fiji's EEZ was in 2016.

*Quote in regards to the IPV deployment: "7. ..... While shorter in deployment that the 2017 deployment, a 3 month deployment in 2018 is the maximum time-frame that NZ can support, while still meeting our own Navy training and capability generation requirements". Sounds like politicians stretching things a bit yet again (maximising NZDF taskings whilst minimising resources until something gives - in this case RNZN can only do so much etc).

*Quote: "9. In 2018 an OPV is programmed to be in the region for Operation Calypso with a route that potentially encompasses Samoa, Tokelau, Tuvalu, Vanuatu, Australia and the Cook Islands for a range of activities. It is proposed that the OPV visits Fiji to conduct (redacted) patrols in its EEZ during (redacted)." So could this be one of the two proposed patrols (eg one patrol dedicated to Fiji co-operation with a further patrol as part of wider regional patrol context)? And would this be the first occasion a RNZN OPV will work with it's Australian counterparts (in Australian home waters)? Surprised it hasn't happened previously with boarder patrol co-operation in the past etc.

*Australia could consider contributing a small number of personnel if requested. Let's hope they do as apart from enhancing co-operation it should put the RAN in good stead to conduct similar patrols once their OPV's are built etc.

*Document also mentions the "refreshed NZ approach to the Pacific Islands" (Re-set) as well as benefiting the Fiji-NZ bilateral relationship (all good things and especially good to further warm relations with Fiji after the disastrous NZ/OZ Foreign Affairs policy of the late 2000's towards Fiji which resulted in "unintended consequences" etc) and co-operation with the Republic of Fiji Military Forces etc.

There should be more of these joint-patrol efforts, as others here have articulated. One thing that I've started to realise that NZ is becoming increasingly targeted by international drug syndicates (as the costs of illegal substances are very high in NZ relative to other Western nations, and these guys are making a "killing" profit wise as perhaps $millions leave the country), perhaps NZG could help reduce this trade by enhancing naval and air maritime surveillance in a more sophisticated co-ordinated manner (and perhaps in conjunction with the US, Australia and France etc)?

 

[40 deg south]

This is a good move and something I have argued for strongly on this forum when others were suggesting that NZ dispose of the IPVs.

I have to confess I've always been sceptical, for two main reasons. Firstly, NZ has lacked the crew to support long IPV deployments. Secondly, the vessels were never designed to be operated a long way offshore, especially during the cyclone season (approx Nov-March).

The first of these factors is addressed by the recent fleet shrinkage. The second, presumably by keeping a close eye on the satellite forecast and being prepared to run for shelter as required.

 

[40 deg south]

Another contender for the southern ocean patrol vessel?

Norway has a new medium ice-breaker / research vessel - the Kronprins Haakon. Video here (link), specs here (link) and more graphics at Chuck Hill's Coastguard Blog (link). Built in Italy by Fincantieri and funded by university interests. It's only a medium ice-breaker so unlikely to be suitable for opening access to McMurdo, but probably would do a reasonable job in the outer sea-ice in the Southern Ocean. Can house the NH90 too. I guess in a NZ context it would have to replace NIWA's Tangaroa as well. Just thought I would throw it out there as another possibility. I don't believe any armament is necessary for such a vessel - presence would be enough deterrent..

That said, I am not at all confident that the SOPV will ever go ahead. Army wants new protected mobility vehicles to add to the already over-subscribed list of equipment to be replaced by the early 2030s. And generally - want Army wants, Army usually gets. They seem to have a stranglehold on the CDF position (last 3 have been Army for over 12 years; last Navy CDF was VADM Teagle more than 20 years ago). In a country with an EEZ 15 times its land area that just seems wrong.

I think the linked vessel is a Rolls Royce design. From the same stable comes the new British research icebreaker Sir David Attenborough (aka Boaty McBoatface). Given RR designed the new Endeavour, there may be advantages in sticking to the same design philosophy. And where possible, equipment like Bergen diesels, MTU generators and Rolls steering gear. Here is a time-lapse video of the Attenborough under construction:

Incidentally, the new CDF is from the Air Force.
New Chief of Defence Force Announced

 

[40 deg south]

Some of you may remember a press release from the navy some months back announcing they had helped scientists deploy a wave-measuring buoy into the Southern Ocean.

Well, it's working.

Massive wave south of NZ believed to be a Southern Hemisphere record

 

[40 deg south]

Royal Navy’s new anti-air Sea Ceptor missile system enters service

RNZN's new point defence missile seems to be progressing nicely for the RN - now accepted into operational service.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/999545684280868865

In honour of the occasion, here is some close-up footage of launches from HMS Montrose, the third RN ship to receive the system.

 

[ngatimozart]

Some of you may remember a press release from the navy some months back announcing they had helped scientists deploy a wave-measuring buoy into the Southern Ocean.

Well, it's working.

Massive wave south of NZ believed to be a Southern Hemisphere record

Only a bit of roughers, but would test ones nerves somewhat. The Southern Ocean has a fetch which circumnavigates the planet, hence no wonder it gets large waves and wave trains.

 

[KiwiRob]

This pretty interesting and might have some influence on what the Navy gets next

Australian and New Zealand scientific research organizations have established the first formal collaboration aimed at promoting the safe, efficient and environmentally responsible operation of research ships.

Called RVONZA (Research Vessels Of New Zealand and Australia), the group's inaugural meeting was held in Wellington last month, lead by NIWA's manager of marine resources, Rob Christie. It was attended by representatives from:

National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA)
Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO)
Australian Antarctic Division (AAD)
Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS)
Australian Maritime Collage (AMC).

Jointly these organizations manage over $1 billion of marine assets and equipment including vessels such as Tangaroa, Kaharoa the Aurora Australis, Investigator, Solander and Cape Ferguson.

The group agreed on a number of joint initiatives, including enabling technicians to take part in research voyages across each other's organizations. The group also agreed to look at the possibility of sharing equipment and vessels and will use their collective expertise to ensure the best practice for design, management and operation of research ships.

The meeting comes at a time when the Australian Antarctic Divison is building a new icebreaking research ship called Nuyina and NIWA has begun the process of replacing its mid fleet vessel Kaharoa.

"The formation of RVONZA means we can now work together in a much more coordinated way sharing valuable lessons on the vessels design, build and operation or research vessels " Christie said.

Australia and New Zealand Form Research Ship Collaboration

 

[RegR]

This is a good move and something I have argued for strongly on this forum when others were suggesting that NZ dispose of the IPVs.

Exactly, if this does not somewhat prove it was more crewing issues that dictated their operational use (or lack of) than a policy shift change then I still cannot see it especially since not only have they ventured outside the "inshore" realm of NZ but they have even left our EEZ to perform its core task. The statement refferring to the relative shortness of the deployment due to NZ commitments, training etc further add to the in fact perceived usefullness of the IPV.

Just goes to show perhaps politicians do not actually know it all.

 

[RegR]

This pretty interesting and might have some influence on what the Navy gets next



Australia and New Zealand Form Research Ship Collaboration

Is'nt NIWA a civilian organisation? I assumed they took over the role (somewhat) of the old HMNZS Tui much like navy has passed on the task of commercial surveying side previously conducted by HMNZS Resoloution and Monowai. Navy divesting itself of seemingly non-core specific activities.

 

[ngatimozart]

This does indeed look promising.
The P8 is such an obvious choice (for me at least) for the NZ government to make as it will create some synergies with the RAAF in performing essentially the same role. Its networking capabilities should open up a whole new world of information sharing and target prosecution for NZ.
I notice also that ships are mentioned here. Are they talking Anzac replacements or something else?
MB

I think that ships are mentioned because they are such costly items. I believe that Ron Mark likes the idea of a third frigate, so if they can do it that way then all well and good.

 

[Milne Bay]

I think that ships are mentioned because they are such costly items. I believe that Ron Mark likes the idea of a third frigate, so if they can do it that way then all well and good.

A third frigate would add so much more flexibility to the RNZN. The Anzac class are long in the tooth - are they looking at a possible ship from the RAN's SEA 5000 (for example) or something else?

 

[recce.k1]

Pretty sure RNZN stated perhaps 2-3 years ago they had someone liaising (in Oz?) with the RAN regarding their Future Frigate project.

Then one of your senior Aussie pollies was reported in recent times saying he would be talking to the NZG about Sea 5000 and Sea 1180 project and acquisition opportunities (nothing since has been reported here but that's not unusual for the NZ MSM to be clueless about goings on).

Wouldn't expect though any official NZG announcement for another couple of years or so - as the RNZN replacement projects are timed later than the RAN's - except of course unless the AusGov or UK Gov manage to commit the NZG early (which who knows could be possible eventually if DefMin Ron Mark has managed to get procurement finance rules changed)?

 

[ngatimozart]

A third frigate would add so much more flexibility to the RNZN. The Anzac class are long in the tooth - are they looking at a possible ship from the RAN's SEA 5000 (for example) or something else?

I am not even sure that they are even looking. If we did buy a 3rd frigate an Aussie SEA 5000 frigate would be an expensive way of doing it. We could get better and cheaper ships with more bells and whistles from the South Koreans or Japanese.

 

[Milne Bay]

I am not even sure that they are even looking. If we did buy a 3rd frigate an Aussie SEA 5000 frigate would be an expensive way of doing it. We could get better and cheaper ships with more bells and whistles from the South Koreans or Japanese.

Yes, the premium that the Australian government is prepared to pay is for the benefit of the industry here, so you should certainly get one cheaper.
But better - well, what exactly have you got in mind?
MB

 

[t68]

Yes, the premium that the Australian government is prepared to pay is for the benefit of the industry here, so you should certainly get one cheaper.
But better - well, what exactly have you got in mind?
MB

But are they prepared to pay the premium, considering what happened with the Anzac build and also in light that the kiwis have dumped the MK41.

 

[MrConservative]

But are they prepared to pay the premium, considering what happened with the Anzac build and also in light that the kiwis have dumped the MK41.

I would say NZ getting involved in the SEA 5000 build is unlikely. Why we got into the Anzac build had everything to do with the geopolitics of the time viz the fallout over the ANZUS treaty. In a nutshell we had to do something with the Australians to keep them sweet following the US nuke ships ban.

The Mk41 has been deleted on our current Anzacs because it is not specifically required - however that does not mean the Mk41 wont be used on their replacement.